TromboneChat

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I've always gotten by just fine on a 2G so can't see an issue with a 1.5G. I'm currently trying out the Symington 1.5G too.....only had it for a few days but it seems promising and I don't mind having to work harder at certain things which you automatically get with a bucket sized piece.

Ross

Ah ha ! an interesting move Ross... you can always drop by and try my Zirconium version.
I seriously hope that we don't repeat the reams of pages created on the old TTF, though people tend to get fired up about this area, so who knows?
You have to learn how to make this size of mouthpiece work in the low register and fewer folk seem inclined to do this today but if you do, a great sound comes with it for free....

Chris

Well, it's certainly worth mentioning the link to that epic thread started by Blast in 2006 which the present subject line refers to.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... mind#p2477

Who would have thought that in 13 years I would have gone from blast to fossil.....
...most of you, probably...

Chris

I thought Matt had fixed the Blast account. No?

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:20 am I thought Matt had fixed the Blast account. No?

Yeah, I think he did but the password situation is a bit of a mess... and I quite like being fossil....
Hope your wife enjoyed the pops concert.... I did.

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:40 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:20 am I thought Matt had fixed the Blast account. No?

Yeah, I think he did but the password situation is a bit of a mess... and I quite like being fossil....
Hope your wife enjoyed the pops concert.... I did.

Chris

She did. One of these days I'd love to meet up with you and chat; maybe even get a lesson on bass trombone. Listened to the Beethoven 9 and my second favorite bass tromboone solo (they rebroadcast the afternoon performance Sunday evening). The solo? In the 2nd movement. That D. Comes up 3 times.

Back on topic, I play a 1 1/2 G sized mouthpiece when I haven't been playing a lot of bass. I also have a Mount Vernon, which I got when I was in High School and my father went into Manny's to get it for me. At the time Bach was in Mount Vernon. Who knew?

I've personally started using smaller mouthpieces in the last couple of years. More 1 1/4 sized but I have noticed that as you get used to a slightly smaller mouthpiece it makes going even smaller much easier. The problem is finding a time to make the switch when you don't have any playing responsibilities.

Ed Kleinhammer appeared to be sane.

Schlitz wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:20 am Okay, time to lob this grenade into the late Summer campfire. BYOB, popcorn, s'mores, and oreos.

I play my base trombone with a Bach 1.5 and I am happy with it . Perhaps I am not in my right mind ( according to my wife anyway) !

I find I get a better overall result on a 1 1/4G. If I'm playing low on a large tenor or want my bass to sound like a large tenor, I use a Ferguson V, which is close to a 1 1/2G, I think on the slightly smaller side. I generally don't have the need to play "really low", whatever that means. My range on bass almost makes it to pedal F, which is not very low, but low enough for 99% of what I do. I can't read ledger lines below a pedal A anyway.

I also have a Yamaha 60L and a Ferguson L. If I had to pick one mouthpiece, it would be a 1 1/4G.

As was mentioned over in the bass trombone sound thread, different equipment will put you at a certain place along the sound continuum. After a certain size, you're better off with an F contra, because you really can't play with a decent sound much above middle C with the largest equipment. Even if you think you can pull it off, you've probably practiced your ear into submission. I think a tenor player would not like that sound.

I have had large mouthpieces, but also have come back to shallower mouthpieces. Rim diameters vary for me. I really like the size and shape of the DE J cup, and I usually play it with a 112 or 113 mW rim though. I have a Bach MV 1.5G that I really like. I also like the Griego 2. I think Yamaha used to make a 60B mouthpiece, and I would like to find it to check it out.

chromebone wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:54 pm Ed Kleinhammer appeared to be sane.

The thread that started way back on TTF was in part down to a quote from Kleinhammer that the 1 1/2 size no longer has a place in the symphony orchestra. In the UK there are many pro orchestra players using the 1 1/2 size and even the 2 size and I thought it was an interesting point to talk around.

Chris

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:34 pm I find I get a better overall result on a 1 1/4G. If I'm playing low on a large tenor or want my bass to sound like a large tenor, I use a Ferguson V, which is close to a 1 1/2G, I think on the slightly smaller side....

The Ferguson V is a copy that Kanstul made of the Minick V. I got one of the first Minick V's from Larry Minick who told me that he called it "V" because he copied it from a Mt. Vernon Bach 1 1/2G . The Minick L (which Kanstul copied and made it a Ferguson L) is just a larger version of the V, kind of a 1 1/4G. The Ferguson LS (a copy of the Minick LS that he made for Jeff Reynolds) is kind of a 1G, but better. I use the LS all the time and like it the best. I stupidly sold my Minick V to a student but I still have 2 Minick L's that I got from Larry who let me try 6 of them for a few weeks.

I will say that it is more difficult to melt into the wallpaper when playing a 1.5G on bass- maybe Kleinhammer was referring to scenarios (arguably becoming more and more common) where the trombones are to be seen, not heard? There's lots of room to hide inside a 1G.

I covered our community band's bass trombonist's part last night during rehearsal. She plays a 3062 with a Griego TB-1 (toilet bowl), and not bashfully! Still, I had no problem being heard on a 1.5G. It's a different kind of bass playing, I'd say a kind that's more focused on the result than on the effort.

I do not. My bass (Yamaha 822G) responds better with a larger mouthpiece, so that’s what I use. I keep a 1.5G size in the case to use when the situation allows, but I’m often reaching for that larger mouthpiece.

I use a Yamaha 59, which is about a 1 1/2 G size and love it

brtnats wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:05 pm I do not. My bass (Yamaha 822G) responds better with a larger mouthpiece, so that’s what I use. I keep a 1.5G size in the case to use when the situation allows, but I’m often reaching for that larger mouthpiece.

You are right... the modern Yamahas were developed with big mouthpieces and sound thin and overly bright with most small mouthpieces.

Chris

I played 1.5 sized stuff for a few years in college. Since then I have moved to the big things.

I still have a George Roberts CE Replica, my old Hammonds, and I just picked up one of Phil Teele's mouthpieces (based on a GR design, just a tad bigger). I've also played the new Symingtons a few times, they are really killer!

If I could get away with it, I would absolutely play something smaller. But I find myself limited in many ways by the smaller mouthpiece, and right now it's not in the cards.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:04 pm

brtnats wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:05 pm I do not. My bass (Yamaha 822G) responds better with a larger mouthpiece, so that’s what I use. I keep a 1.5G size in the case to use when the situation allows, but I’m often reaching for that larger mouthpiece.

You are right... the modern Yamahas were developed with big mouthpieces and sound thin and overly bright with most small mouthpieces.

Chris

Chris,

Very interesting. Since you've had a hand in developing mouthpieces and instruments, could you shed some light on the features an instrument needs in order to be suited for a 1.5G sized mouthpiece? The generic specifications don't give that much differentiation, and I think we'd all like to hear your opinion.

I play on a 1 size for bass, and a 3 size for either size tenor.

brtnats wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:43 am

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:04 pm

You are right... the modern Yamahas were developed with big mouthpieces and sound thin and overly bright with most small mouthpieces.

Chris

Chris,

Very interesting. Since you've had a hand in developing mouthpieces and instruments, could you shed some light on the features an instrument needs in order to be suited for a 1.5G sized mouthpiece? The generic specifications don't give that much differentiation, and I think we'd all like to hear your opinion.

That's pretty easy but not helpful or informative.... if the players helping to develop an instrument use large mouthpieces, they make choices that work with those mouthpieces... like Yeo with Yamaha. One of my students complained about how hard it was to get an orchestral sound out of her Yamaha.... she plays a 1 1/2 size mouthpiece.... so I bought in a large Elliott and blew her horn... suddenly it worked well in every way.
Older horns are more likely to have been developed with smaller mouthpieces and therefore may work better with smaller mouthpieces, but this is not a given.... the Bach 50B is very flexible for example.
I told you it was not helpful.
Pretty much every trombone you play is the result of trial and error development... whatever the maker claims.

Chris

Another oversized 1.5 sized mouthpiece I liked and played on for almost a decade is the Stork 1.5S.

I found the Yam Xenos (bass and tenors) kind of heavy and lifeless but can see how a Yeo-sized piece might be necessary to get the most from the horn.

I have the Yam 620g bass, which seems to respond well to a 1 1/2 to 1 1/4-sized mpc. I’m pretty happy using a Kanstul GR and a G Black 1 1/2 (light) these days.

I'm in the 1 1/2 size camp as well. Because I don't have a large bore tenor, I tend to focus on a sound that needs to blend with a big band trombone section. Not easy with a 10" bell moose horn. A smaller mouthpiece (or one that's moderate in depth, for bass mouthpieces) gets me in the right direction though. It's the approach to get the desired effect, not necessarily the equipment.

I just play better on not so big of a mouthpiece.

That new Schilke Bill Reichenbach mouthpiece is mighty intriguing to me... Wider cup but not too deep...

The ongoing debate about what constitutes "the bass trombone sound" - a subject that touches the metaphysical - is the complicating factor here. I think Aidan said it as well as anybody on some other thread I remember - it´s where you are and the company you keep. As long as I play in big bands and amateur symphony orchestras in Britain, no-one will ever question the use of a 1.5G or a 2G. The classical tenor people I sit next to to play Brahms etc use Conns and Raths using 4G/ 5G size pieces. Me on my R8 and a 2G, or my R9 with a 1.5G sounds to my amateurish ears just fine. I suppose you can argue about whether in the low brass the bass trombone should even try to "blend" with a tuba or not. Complement it for sure, but perhaps not blend. Tomatoes / tomaytoes I guess. As for big bands, it seems to me that when everyone else is playing King 2Bs, you´d do better playing more closely matched equipment, within reason.

I get the impression that US trombonists just use bigger stuff. Tenor players using 3G sized mouthpieces would tend to encourage bass players to play 1G and bigger.

In any event, when I´ve tried spells of playing the Yeo mouthpiece and its ilk, it has always felt like I was I taking myself one step closer to giving myself emphysema. So I just keep my lungs firmly inside my chest cavity, and play 1.5s and 2s!

Bill

I still usually play my Faxx 1.5G with my Yamaha 612 RII, even though I have a very nice Laskey 85MD. I have to play tenor as well, and the Faxx 1.5G just works better when I'm having to double at lot.

The 85 MD is much more of a "modern" bass piece with a larger throat, so it can take more air if I'm not careful.

I shouldn't say much because I may have been rambling too much before I play the 1.5 Symington today and also have a Mt Vernon Bach 1 1/2g close to me. Before that I played bigger stuff and did it OK but never got the sound I wanted in my head. Chris made me an eyeopener about ten years ago and since then I tried all 1.5 size mouthpieces there is....so thanks Chris! You both gave me headache, an empty wallet (after trying all) , and a real eyeopener about sound. Just joking a little, but you really open my mind and how to think. You still do with your insight in your posts. I still learn.

10 years ago the recordings of GR was not easy to get. Ray Premru I listen a lot, even in a live concert in Oslo 35 years ago. Fantastic, I even shake his hand but didn't have the chance to talk much to him. I thought then I had to play the big stuff to get close to their sound. Stupid me, I didn't listen my teachers. And I didn't have much clue about anything, nor did I have an open mind. Anyway, never to late, Chris kind of made me think different and Im really thankful!

Today I listen so many good bass trombone players. So many of them today, both known and also unknown amazing players around. I enjoy all of them because they are good musicians. Many have given out own albums. There is also a lot of bad examples if we go to youtube..... like me... Hahahahah

There is lot of good 1.5 size mouthpieces out there today, like Doug Elliott, Hammond, Greg Black, Griego, some Bach, in short; something for everyone. Just watch the wallet...

Anyway, too much rambling again
Be happy and enjoy the trombone!! See you soon Chris!

Leif

Jimprindle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:11 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:34 pm I find I get a better overall result on a 1 1/4G. If I'm playing low on a large tenor or want my bass to sound like a large tenor, I use a Ferguson V, which is close to a 1 1/2G, I think on the slightly smaller side....

The Ferguson V is a copy that Kanstul made of the Minick V. I got one of the first Minick V's from Larry Minick who told me that he called it "V" because he copied it from a Mt. Vernon Bach 1 1/2G . The Minick L (which Kanstul copied and made it a Ferguson L) is just a larger version of the V, kind of a 1 1/4G. The Ferguson LS (a copy of the Minick LS that he made for Jeff Reynolds) is kind of a 1G, but better. I use the LS all the time and like it the best. I stupidly sold my Minick V to a student but I still have 2 Minick L's that I got from Larry who let me try 6 of them for a few weeks.

Was the LS mayde for Jeff? There's also the Ferguson Jeff Reynolds which Minick Made for Jeff. Little bigger on the Rim than the L but with a smaller Backbore.

swissbone wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:14 pm
Was the LS mayde for Jeff? There's also the Ferguson Jeff Reynolds which Minick Made for Jeff. Little bigger on the Rim than the L but with a smaller Backbore.

I think Ferguson posted on the old trombone bulletin board that the LS was made for Jeff. It wouldn't surprise me that Jeff worked with Larry on the LS and maybe thought it was too big and came up with the JR. At the time Larry (who had known Jeff since high school) was on a yearly retainer from Jeff and (I think) a few other brass players (LA phil and maybe studio guys) to repair and twink various things. The few years I studied with Jeff he was always showing the latest thing Minick had made, resoldered, rebraced etc. almost every lesson.

Jimprindle wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:03 am

swissbone wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:14 pm
Was the LS mayde for Jeff? There's also the Ferguson Jeff Reynolds which Minick Made for Jeff. Little bigger on the Rim than the L but with a smaller Backbore.

I think Ferguson posted on the old trombone bulletin board that the LS was made for Jeff. It wouldn't surprise me that Jeff worked with Larry on the LS and maybe thought it was too big and came up with the JR. At the time Larry (who had known Jeff since high school) was on a yearly retainer from Jeff and (I think) a few other brass players (LA phil and maybe studio guys) to repair and twink various things. The few years I studied with Jeff he was always showing the latest thing Minick had made, resoldered, rebraced etc. almost every lesson.

Thank you for the insight!
(And sorry for putting the Chat slightly Off topic)

I do. MV 1 and 1/2G.

I wonder if Jeff Reynolds played a Bach MV 1 1/2g on his LP "the big trombone" before he went to his signature mouthpiece?

Leif

I play on a Wick Heritage 00AL and a buddy of mine plays a G&W Karif. Both bigger than a 1 1/2G and we both love 'em! I still tend to play a 1 1/2 on my tenor from time to time to get a darker and warmer tone.

Well I am back on a 1 1/2 G after switching to a schilke 59 and then to a Yeo.

Truth is that the 1 1/2 is more work but at the same time feels more secure.

Funny thing is when I first tried the 1 1/2 I could not access the trigger register very well at all. Tried for over a year. Quite frankly I thought i could never do it. Switched and boom. Then Yeo: even better but I saw this post another year later and I thought why no try the 1 1/2 again? Low range? There! Sound? Aha...

I am going to work at this and see where it takes me.

Backbone wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:14 pm Well I am back on a 1 1/2 G after switching to a schilke 59 and then to a Yeo.

Truth is that the 1 1/2 is more work but at the same time feels more secure.

Funny thing is when I first tried the 1 1/2 I could not access the trigger register very well at all. Tried for over a year. Quite frankly I thought i could never do it. Switched and boom. Then Yeo: even better but I saw this post another year later and I thought why no try the 1 1/2 again? Low range? There! Sound? Aha...

I am going to work at this and see where it takes me.

I too downsized from a Schilke 59 to a 1 and 1/2G. I transitioned down to a Stork 1.5 and then eventually to a Vincent Bach Corp. 1 and 1/2G to my eventual MV. It took me about 6 months to "figure it out". For what I do it works best. Your experience might be different.

I had been chasing low range for so long and failed to realize that most of the bass and 3rd parts are not even trigger notes. And most of the times it's no lower than a low D. I mean really. I dont think I have played a whole part that was trigger notes. For the added ease of low notes, I was struggling with the majority of notes I do have to play. So that is also part of my reasoning. The majority of the notes I do have to play just sound better and are much easier on that 1 1/2! That makes it worth the work for the low range.

I play the 4th part in a big band and there are some charts that are really 4th bone parts that could be played just as well on any tenor. They don't even require a trigger.

Others are true bass bone parts with quite a few low notes, including a fair number of pedal tones.

I've found that my single trigger Yamaha bass bone can handle each equally well with 2 mps. I have a Marcinckiewicz George Roberts model-- same as current 1 1/2G model, I understand-- and a Marc 3. Both have identical rims, but the GR model cup is deeper with a larger throat and backbore. I switch between them, depending on the chart.

The GR-- 1 1/2G sized-- Marc works very well for when I occasionally cover a tuba part in a quintet as I did recently. It gives me an adequately sounding low range and blends well with the rest of the quintet.

You would be much better off finding a way to play ALL the parts one one mouthpiece.

I play all the parts on my bass trombone with a Doug Elliott setup that approximates a Yamaha Yeo (including a high C in an arrangement of "All of Me"). But you should be able to cover al the parts with one or the other of the two mouthpieces you mention.

OTOH, I do a similar thing when I play bass depending on the band I'm in. I just did one with about half 30s-40s era swing charts and the other half 60s-80s stuff with a mix of like Maynard Ferguson charts. Yeah, sure I can play "In the Mood" on my 116/M/M9 but I prefer the blend on a 104N/E/E8. But then I'm not laying down pedal Fs on the latter. If you can switch and it doesn't cause any particular problems I don't see an issue with such switching. Maybe a middle ground piece woudl be better but both of those pieces work better for me than something in the middle for the things that I use them for.

Not only does the upper range lie better on the Marc 3 than the 1 1/2G sized GR, but, as Matt K suggested, I think it usually sounds better to play the 4th parts that are more like tenor parts on the Marc 3. Since the rims are identical switching between the 2 works well.

I've only had my bass bone for less than a year and my chops aren't really up to snuff to play the upper range well on the GR, but I think even if they were, I probably would do some switching for the sound. A few charts we have, don't even have a 4th bone part and we just have me double the 3rd part. On those charts the Marc 3 really does sound better.

The Marc 3 is about the size of a Bach 2 and works very well to help my bass bone sound a bit more like a tenor on certain charts.

You can make it sound more like a tenor with a Bach 4G.

Or why not have two trombones there. A tenor for the 30s and 40s pieces and a bass for the newer stuff? After all, Glenn Miller had 4 Bach 6s, no large horn in sight.

Yes, I could make it sound a bit more like a tenor with my Marc 4 which is somewhere between a Bach 4G and 5G or I could bring one of my tenors, but the mp switch would be a less natural feel with the switch in rim sizes and bringing 2 horns is not an option for several of the venues we often play in due to rather cramped quarters.

Switching between the Marc GR and the Marc 3 works well and it's what I think I'll stay with.

Mention of the GR mouthpiece prompts me to say the GR isnt actually a 1.5G, its bigger - more like a 1.5GM

In my case it's because of limited space usually. Lot of the venues barely have room for one horn on a stand let alone two. Add to that switching between songs with clothespins for outdoor stuff... not much time between tunes! (Yeah, it isn't the most optimal placement of stuff in my opinion... did a gig yesterday where we went straight from Miller to Maynard back-to-back). I just keep my mouthpiece pouch sitting next to me on my mute bag. If I don't make the switch, it's fine. But just swapping out the piece takes a second. Swapping out the horn might take 3 seconds or more depending on the stage setup. If I can even fit it! One of the bands for some odd reason sits 2134 instead of 4312. If I'm sitting on the latter, it isn't nearly as hard. If I'm in the former there's a guitar player right next to me. I don't trust guitar players and where they'll swing their neck next!

Played on a Wick 2 Al for years cause the inner rim of anything smaller was too small. Had to stop playing tenor because that was also to small and anything bigger would run me into tuning issues.

In fact playing on a to small mouthpiece injured me on the trombone. So, I decided to play Bass Bone the way my professor wanted my too, before he died of Pancreatic Cancer a few years back.

My lip structure also would dictate the switch, some people are simply built for certain instruments. This NorEaster mouthpiece is the widest I could find without getting into Contra territory.

Now I can play with a relaxed embouchure. 1.5 G is like a lead mouthpiece for me and would more likely injure me again or vice versa.

I had to look up what my mouthpieces are equivalent to in Bach-speak. When I bought them I was not searching for a specific diameter, I just tried everything and bought what I liked the best. That ended up being a 1G-sized piece for my daily driver, and a 2G-sized piece when I want something smaller. So I guess I avoided the 1.5 size entirely, at least currently.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:41 amOne of the bands for some odd reason sits 2134 instead of 4312.

I've played in bands that used 3214 (bari on the inside as well) and I loved it. Sitting in between the lead player and the rhythm section made everything so easy.

It's interesting the way this new thread has gone. The original thread started out as more of a philosophic riff around bass trombone mouthpieces and what has happened to them over the last 50 years.... why there has been a vast size change and what that has done and where that leaves the old mouthpieces like the1 1/2G .
No other brass instrument has seen such changes and I was thinking out loud about the whys and wherefores that attach themselves to this story.
Here, people are mostly locked into practical issues and what they have to do to get results in the settings that they find themselves in.
I would maintain that full-time professionals could play the old classic mouthpieces, because at one time, they all did.... and they could equally well play the big modern mouthpieces, because very many, including me, have done at points in their careers.
Professionals can choose, those with more limited time and/or ability try to find equipment that they feel helps them get results..... big mouthpieces can help the less frequent players play low, but smaller mouthpieces may be needed to help endurance and sound. It is a misconception that bigger mouthpieces make a bigger sound.... big mouthpieces can create diffuse sounds in those not able to cope with them and a smaller, less demanding mouthpiece can allow part time players to relax, focus and develop tonal richness.
Just thinking out loud.
I know how I want to sound, I play for my living, I choose a mouthpiece that helps me get the sound I want, end of.
That happens to be in the 1 1/2G size range.

Chris

Nice synopsis.

As a less frequent player, I have found myself in a wind ensemble, surrounded by 14 trumpets, 8 French horns, and 6 Tubas! Not to mention the percussion.

The pressure to play low and loud is immense. ( Think "Dark Knight") Without the foundation of daily playing I was not strong enough to keep up. I also found myself constantly over blowing, or better put, blowing past the note. Air was just too fast, hard and tense.

We have recently acquired a new bass player who is very good - out of high school- but he is playing a cannon. Dual bore and giant piece. Said the yeo was too small! Having him around has given me opportunity to pull back and listen to my sound. When I dropped the 1 1/2G back into my Holton, it made a world of difference in sound and feel.