6.5AL alternatives

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dsmndng
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6.5AL alternatives

Post by dsmndng »

I currently play a faxx 6.5AL, but feel like the rim shape isn’t the most comfortable after a long wedding gig. I also play on a Griego 5M NY on a different horn, I think this is the same rim shape as a regular 5, and love the shape of that rim. I’m not a mouthpiece expert, but the Griego feels a little flatter and with a little less bite on the inner rim.

So I guess my questions are as follows. Does the Griego 6.5AL have the same rim shape? If not, does anyone have any favorite alternatives to a 6.5AL with a different rim shape?

I have a regular Bach 6.5AL that feels similar and have tried the DW equivalent. The Wick has too sharp of a inner rim bite for my taste. Also, I generally don’t care for mouthpieces on either end of the weight/mass spectrum. I know the DW Heritage series have comfy rims but they are too light for me. Just average weight or slightly heavier like Griego, GB, etc.

I know I’m being picky, but it’s only because the faxx is a great mouthpiece, it’s just a little uncomfortable after a few dance sets. Thanks for any and all of the help!
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Matt K
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Matt K »

Oh man, Doug’s new E shanks as of last year are superb. I use an XT E cup for most of my playing, which is approximately a 6.5 depth. I use a way bigger rim but if you wanted something closer to the 5 size you could get like a 101 or 102 rim.
dsmndng
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by dsmndng »

Ooo actually, I don’t need a bigger rim size, I should have specified that. I just want a different rim shape. The diameter can be around a 6.5 or smaller. Just wanted to say that so people don’t think I only have custom mpcs as options. But good to know about the E shank, thanks!
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Matt K
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Matt K »

In that case an LT100 rim, LT E cup, and a matching shank (E2,3, 4, and 5 are small shanks and E8,9 are large shank; each number intended for a range of bore sizes. I’m guessing E3 is closest to the Bach small shank and E8 closest to the large shank.).

Doug’s rims are super comfortable and if it doesn’t work out you could just swap it out for a different contour. There are four shapes available in that rim size (including a 6.5AL copy which I’d assume you want to avoid!
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Doug Elliott
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Doug Elliott »

My relatively new D+ cup depth is a really excellent 6-1/2 equivalent. My standard rim shape is far more comfortable and about the same width but flatter. Backbore depends on what horn you play. I am currently using a D+ cup with D+3 shank on a King 2B I recently got, and I think it's outstanding.
Posaunus
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Posaunus »

Before I read Doug Elliott's simultaneous post, I would have said ...
The closest Doug Elliott equivalent to a 6½AL (100mm Cup I.D.) is probably a 100 Rim, an E Cup, and the appropriate shank for your trombone (e.g., E3 for 0.508" to 0.510" bore trombones). Doug's rims are (to me) quite comfortable.
mbarbier
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by mbarbier »

I really like the Warburton version of it (6T) as well as a Rath 6.5 I have. The Warburton was my daily for about a decade after some similar feelings on the Faxx 6.5 and I've been kinda oscillating between the Warburton and Rath the last two.
I also like the Hammond 13ML I've got. It's a fairly soft rim with a bigger throat, so plays a little bigger than the other two.
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modelerdc
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by modelerdc »

Don't overlook a Bach 5 (not 5G). It's a small shank and a stock item, same rim as 5G but shallower cup.
Kevbach33
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Kevbach33 »

Personally, i find most 6½AL rims based on Bach to be too round and too soft a bite for me. Surprising to see that the op thinks it's too sharp.

I have no experience with a Griego 6.5.

That said...

You might want to give a Warburton 10D with a T3 or T3 star shank a try, assuming this is a small bore horn, and if you're okay with modular mouthpieces. It'll have a smaller throat size (.250") for control, and a more conical cup than a Bach or Faxx. I find the rim (I use a 9D and 9M, similar size to Bach 5 but different shape) extra comfortable, not too round or flat, with a good bite that is neither sharp nor soft. If the back bore is too open or tight, that can be changed to suit the feel your horn needs. 1 is tightest, 6 is most open, and star versions are a touch more open as well. Need to play lead? There's a 10M as well, about like a C cup in depth.
mbarbier wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:13 pm I really like the Warburton version of it (6T) ...
Interesting, as the 6T has a pretty small throat spec (.234") compared to a 6½AL (.261", i think the spec was...). Could just be better balanced overall though?
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mbarbier
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by mbarbier »

Kevbach33 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:25 pm
mbarbier wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:13 pm I really like the Warburton version of it (6T) ...
Interesting, as the 6T has a pretty small throat spec (.234") compared to a 6½AL (.261", i think the spec was...). Could just be better balanced overall though?
It's got a solid bit of weight on it (nothing extreme) and I found that, at least to me, that feels like it makes that part work. Definitely found it to be a take it easy and let the gear do the work kind of mp, which took some adjusting on my end.
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dsmndng
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by dsmndng »

Thanks for all of the info everyone! I contacted Doug; I’m going to try out his mouthpieces!
Posaunus
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Posaunus »

dsmndng wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:26 am Thanks for all of the info everyone! I contacted Doug; I’m going to try out his mouthpieces!
:good:
Aznguyy
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Aznguyy »

Another vote for Doug’s D+ Cup With D+3 backbore. Very comfortable 6.5 sized piece. I also use it with a LT101 rim with D+4 backbore on my .525 bore.
Aznguyy
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Aznguyy »

I should also add that Doug’s E cup is going to play similar to the Griego 5M cup. Just a heads up.
Thrawn22
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Thrawn22 »

The Griego NY 6.5 feels, to me, just like the NY 5 and 5M (i have all 3 and the fact they felt the same and sound great was motivation for me to buy them).
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8H
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Model34
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Model34 »

After 3 days on my new SHIRES MARSHALL GILKES CUSTOM mouthpiece I’m dumping all 20 other 6½AL-ish pieces in my inventory, including my original Bach 6½AL. The MG Custom IS the NEW GOLD STANDARD 25.4mm against which all others will compete! It does everything better. HOW? I don’t know, so I’ll just describe the physical aspects as well as I can. Rim: wide very slightly rounded with nice slope to bite. Very comfortable. Cup: a little deeper than a Schilke 51. Not as deep as a Schilke 51D. Straighter sides than a 51. Throat smaller than a 51. Short throat opening quickly, and tappering to end. Outside: rim height longer heavier than Shires 6½AL. Cup outside is larger and heavier. Outside throat mucch thicker than the Shires AL. 3 rings with each ring being heavier than he one before it. 3rd ring being much larger than the one before it. Just clears horn leadpipe 3 receiver on my Shires MG small tenor.
Aznguyy
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Aznguyy »

Model34 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:08 pm After 3 days on my new SHIRES MARSHALL GILKES CUSTOM mouthpiece I’m dumping all 20 other 6½AL-ish pieces in my inventory, including my original Bach 6½AL. The MG Custom IS the NEW GOLD STANDARD 25.4mm against which all others will compete! It does everything better. HOW? I don’t know, so I’ll just describe the physical aspects as well as I can. Rim: wide very slightly rounded with nice slope to bite. Very comfortable. Cup: a little deeper than a Schilke 51. Not as deep as a Schilke 51D. Straighter sides than a 51. Throat smaller than a 51. Short throat opening quickly, and tappering to end. Outside: rim height longer heavier than Shires 6½AL. Cup outside is larger and heavier. Outside throat mucch thicker than the Shires AL. 3 rings with each ring being heavier than he one before it. 3rd ring being much larger than the one before it. Just clears horn leadpipe 3 receiver on my Shires MG small tenor.
Would you happen to have played a Greigo 6.5 before to compare this to?
Model34
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Model34 »

No. I did play a Greigo 6.5. Light weight which I gave away tonight. I liked it. But I’ve never played a DECO. 6.5s I’ve played: Rath standard and light weight, Bach, Fax, Greigo, Schilke, Hammond, Shires. I gave all of them away at rehearsal tonight. My Shires MG Custom is IT. I FINALLY have my last mouthpiece. I’m picking up my 88HSGXCL from repair tomorrow. I’m going to try it with an adapter. If that goes well, then I’m done looking fo the perfect piece, I have it!
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DaveAshley
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by DaveAshley »

Sleeper 6 1/2AL alternative: Schilke-Dixon

Great piece!
pompatus
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by pompatus »

DaveAshley wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:13 am Sleeper 6 1/2AL alternative: Schilke-Dixon

Great piece!
I’ve seen many Schilke Dixons over the years, and always wondered what was up with them. Does anyone know the story behind this model?
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DaveAshley
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by DaveAshley »

Joe Dixon, a trombone teacher in Texas, had them made for his students. That’s about all I know.
Posaunus
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Posaunus »

Schilke Dixon is almost identical to Schilke 50 (small shank). Perfectly decent mouthpiece if you like Schilkes.
Similar size to 6½AL: ~ 25.40mm / 1.000" Cup I.D.; 6.75mm / 0.266" Throat.
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DaveAshley
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by DaveAshley »

I’m pretty sure the Dixon is a 6 1/2AL cut into a Schilke blank. Similar to the 50, but still different. I sold my 50’s and kept the Dixon.

Plays beautifully on the Lawler Model 1!!
Model34
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Model34 »

Model34 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:34 pm No. I did play a Greigo 6.5. Light weight which I gave away tonight. I liked it. But I’ve never played a DECO. 6.5s I’ve played: Rath standard and light weight, Bach, Fax, Greigo, Schilke, Hammond, Shires. I gave all of them away at rehearsal tonight. My Shires MG Custom is IT. I FINALLY have my last mouthpiece. I’m picking up my 88HSGXCL from repair tomorrow. I’m going to try it with an adapter. If that goes well, then I’m done looking fo the perfect piece, I have it!
Picked up my 88HSGXCL from repair. For large bore, the Shires 5MD works quite well. Feels similar to my Gilkes custom piece. The CL 2000 valve is the only one that is as open as a straight horn on the Bb side, and the same on the F side.

However, my TBMGF is in production! The Conn may bite the dust.

Stay tuned!
Model34
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Model34 »

Gilkes sig. mouthpiece

My crazy way to pick a piece is to find the piece that the horn likes. Then get to work on the rim to suit me! My TBMG came with the Shires 6½ALS. Knowing full well that the MGSig. was fine tuned to my horn, I ordered one. I wasn’t disappointed. The MGSig. not only matched the horn, the rim perfectly matched me! So good for me; I’ll never need another mouthpiece for my MG Sig. Horn! But what about you? In response to all the chatter about sizzle, I pulled out the piece that came with my horn: the Shires 6½ALS. I gave it a five minute test. Result: I can’t imagine wanting more sizzle than it provides with this horn! Remember, this horn is fully capable of sizzle with the MGSig. piece. The rim is similar to the MGSig’s. I highly recommend it to anybody wanting to go from the signature mouthpiece to more sizzle!

NOW FOR THE BIZARRE,

Because I’ve found myself playing more and more Concert Band of late, I canceled my order for the MG F-attachment horn. Instead, I bought a Bach Artisan Strad. A47 Rotor to replace my 88HSGXCL. The Sterling 88 is just too dang heavy for me these days. This brings me the sound I want for symphonic works: BACH. Using my CRAZY find a mouthpiece the horn likes, I gathered some usual suspects: Bach 6½, 5G, 5GS; Schilke 51, 51D; Griego CS5, 55; Shires 5MD. The 51D distinguished itself by adding a little dark chocolate to the sound. That’s dark, but never dull, adding super richness to the already luxurious Bach sound! While very good, it’s not for everything. So I’m sitting there looking at all my mouthpieces thinking, well what else can I try? Then I noticed my Conn-Selmer adapter. The adapter was just 1/4 of a hair from fitting properly on the MGSig. Piece. Close enough to let me just set it in the receiver and try it. To my astonishment the A47 loves the MG signature piece. Next day I took it to the repair shop and had it permanently soldered in place! How one mouthpiece can be so right for two very different horns I don’t know! Shires doesn’t offer a large shank version of the MGSig. The Conn-Selmer adapter is the only one I’ve found that will work.
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harrisonreed
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by harrisonreed »

If you are into crazy hacks like this, and love the MGSig mouthpiece, send it to Vennture and they will scan it for you. You can then have the correct shank taper and use it in any horn you want. Or adopt that rim to other mouthpieces you like.

Turnaround for a scan is like 4 days.
Bleek
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Bleek »

Model34 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:17 pm
I pulled out the piece that came with my horn: the Shires 6½ALS. I gave it a five minute test. Result: I can’t imagine wanting more sizzle than it provides with this horn! Remember, this horn is fully capable of sizzle with the MGSig. piece. The rim is similar to the MGSig’s. I highly recommend it to anybody wanting to go from the signature mouthpiece to more sizzle!
Hey. I too love the Gilkes Signature mouthpiece that came with my Shires Gilkes trombone. But, am on the search for a 'lead' version of it, as discussed in Shires Marshall Gilkes Piece thread. Just this week I got the Shires 6.5ALS and 11C in the hope they have a similar rim and playing characteristic. I found rim wise the 11C closest to the Gilkes, but too different in playing characteristics, and I found the 6.5ALS rim quite different for me from the Gilkes. I'm chatting to Pickett on my search for a Gilkes 'lead' to use when the gig needs more sizzle.
Model34
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by Model34 »

Bleek wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:57 pm
Model34 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:17 pm

Hey. I too love the Gilkes Signature mouthpiece that came with my Shires Gilkes trombone. But, am on the search for a 'lead' version of it, as discussed in Shires Marshall Gilkes Piece thread. Just this week I got the Shires 6.5ALS and 11C in the hope they have a similar rim and playing characteristic. I found rim wise the 11C closest to the Gilkes, but too different in playing characteristics, and I found the 6.5ALS rim quite different for me from the Gilkes. I'm chatting to Pickett on my search for a Gilkes 'lead' to use when the gig needs more sizzle.
Simple: Cut the MGSig rim off, thread it on the Shires 6½ ALS. Karl Hammond has done many such operations for me. He does a great job.
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Re: 6.5AL alternatives

Post by PaulT »

The Yamaha 51B could be just the ticket (and it will only cost you $50 to find out). The rim size and mouth-feel will be similar to a 6.5, but it has a shallower cup which will add a nice energy to the sound (lively and energetic, but not sharp or shrill). I love Yamaha's 51B, large shank/small shank both.
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