... announcing the arrival of the S.E. Shires Q Series Euphonium! Prototypes debuting at this year’s ITEC (International Tuba Euphonium Conference)!!! #theregoestheneighborhood #iplayshires #teamshires #seshires #shireseuphonium #shiresqseries #euphonium #brassband #orchestra #windensemble #militarymusic #handmade #custombrassinstruments #euphoniumplayer
Shires q series parts and Eastman parts are very easy to come by. So are the parts for low end Chinese resellers like Wessex and Mack brass.brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 2:05 pm The problem with Chinese-made horns is that the machining doesn't seem to be as accurate, and with something as finicky as compensating valves, it could be a problem. I've run into this a number of times: "Hey, I saved a bunch of money buying this Chinese instrument and it plays great!".... "Hmmmm...the valves aren't working right - can you fix it?" Nope.
I'm sure it's not a completely rebadged Eastman but I think it's logical to say that not all the parts are made by Shires. At least on this first one. Maybe Shires will tool up if they already haven't?
That's my point, though. If the valves are poorly machined, you can't fix it just with "parts".Specialk3700 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 3:45 pmShires q series parts and Eastman parts are very easy to come by. So are the parts for low end Chinese resellers like Wessex and Mack brass.brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 2:05 pm The problem with Chinese-made horns is that the machining doesn't seem to be as accurate, and with something as finicky as compensating valves, it could be a problem. I've run into this a number of times: "Hey, I saved a bunch of money buying this Chinese instrument and it plays great!".... "Hmmmm...the valves aren't working right - can you fix it?" Nope.
This assumption about chinese made goods drives me nuts. Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway. Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 2:05 pm The problem with Chinese-made horns is that the machining doesn't seem to be as accurate, and with something as finicky as compensating valves, it could be a problem. I've run into this a number of times: "Hey, I saved a bunch of money buying this Chinese instrument and it plays great!".... "Hmmmm...the valves aren't working right - can you fix it?" Nope.
Dealing with Chinese manufacturers is a funny game. I worked for a company where we'd pre-order parts from China for prototype runs and the parts were perfect. Then we'd place the final order and the parts were terrible. Some factories operate on the "parts is parts" mode and do no QC so it becomes incumbent on the buyer to make sure the parts are useful.LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 3:10 amThis assumption about chinese made goods drives me nuts. Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway. Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 2:05 pm The problem with Chinese-made horns is that the machining doesn't seem to be as accurate, and with something as finicky as compensating valves, it could be a problem. I've run into this a number of times: "Hey, I saved a bunch of money buying this Chinese instrument and it plays great!".... "Hmmmm...the valves aren't working right - can you fix it?" Nope.
The fair statement to make is, i hope Eastman doesnt cheap out, and is paying for high accuracy on anything machined.
Absolutely! Anytime I order I check each part to verify regardless. And yes when you start getting to higher accuracy/resolution, price can go up a lot for sure, hence saying i hope they didnt cheap out!BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 7:49 amDealing with Chinese manufacturers is a funny game. I worked for a company where we'd pre-order parts from China for prototype runs and the parts were perfect. Then we'd place the final order and the parts were terrible. Some factories operate on the "parts is parts" mode and do no QC so it becomes incumbent on the buyer to make sure the parts are useful.LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 3:10 am This assumption about chinese made goods drives me nuts. Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway. Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.
The fair statement to make is, i hope Eastman doesnt cheap out, and is paying for high accuracy on anything machined.
Note that increasing tolerance specs often changes price. There is a very big difference in how to make parts +/- 0.01mm vs. 0.001 mm vs. 0.0001 mm. Often the difference can be tenfold for each increase in spec.
Fixed that for you.Trevorspaulding376 wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 11:38 am The q series trombone parts are all made in the Eastman’s shires factory by shires (Eastman) , then assembled over seas (by Eastman) and then checked back out at shires (Eastman) is my understanding so the parts are still of the highest quality, no reason to believe the euphoniums would be any different
If they do that it could be good. But if the valves are made at the chinese factory, it could be a problem.Trevorspaulding376 wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 11:38 am The q series trombone parts are all made in the shires factory by shires , then assembled over seas and then checked back out at shires is my understanding so the parts are still of the highest quality, no reason to believe the euphoniums would be any different
Not sure where you got your info from... but that's wrong. The post Trevorspaulding made is correct...Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 12:30 pmFixed that for you.Trevorspaulding376 wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 11:38 am The q series trombone parts are all made in the Eastman’s shires factory by shires (Eastman) , then assembled over seas (by Eastman) and then checked back out at shires (Eastman) is my understanding so the parts are still of the highest quality, no reason to believe the euphoniums would be any different
It's not an assumption; it is an observation. Huge difference.
LOL. No, you don't get well made parts just because you wrote a number on a piece of paper.Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway.
Ideals and actual practice are quite different. But I will give Shires the benefit of the doubt here because they have always built high-quality instruments. If Shires is making the parts and checking the quality of the overseas construction, then it could be good.Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.
Do you get parts from China?brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 1:19 pmIt's not an assumption; it is an observation. Huge difference.LOL. No, you don't get well made parts just because you wrote a number on a piece of paper.Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway.Ideals and actual practice are quite different. But I will give Shires the benefit of the doubt here because they have always built high-quality instruments. If Shires is making the parts and checking the quality of the overseas construction, then it could be good.Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.
Specialk3700 wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 10:23 pm Having experience with Eastman trombones I have no worries about quality control. They have been some of my favorite trombones I have tried. They are also making huge gains in the tuba world it seems everyone is becoming an Eastman artist.
I worked on a lot of the Jinbao altos for Horn Guys. They were not playable from the factory. The reason those were priced higher was because we completely replaced the leadpipes and did a major overhaul on each instrument. Some had to be sent back because they just weren't viable instruments at all. Most if not all of the ones kept had either poorly drawn inner slide tubes, leaky solder joints, slides tubes wildly out of alignment or not straight, etc. They're not bad instruments once they are fixed up, but definitely not usable on a professional level the way they arrived.Matt K wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 8:43 pm It's obvious that some of the horns are marginally playable at best just as it is obvious that some horns are quite playable, evidenced by the early popular adoption in even professional settings of the alto trombones distributed by Horn Guys as of a few years ago before the lower price point horns had penetrated the market. So if your experience is primarily the former, it is going to be understandably difficult to think of them as anything but inferior.
Right! So it goes, particularly with the horns without rotors as you mentioned. And as someone who has owned two of those altos it was still quite worth it given my relative levels of ability to play the alto vs. my ability to pay for one. I actually bought one of your "B" stock ones that had a relatively scratchy slide but I was able to replace the inners/outeres and end up with a good alto, the tech who did the work appreciated the work... win/win situation. You're probably right about the euph though, that would not be nearly as easy to replace as I did by... if I'm recalling... chopping up a 354 slide. I was <$1k... I think sub $500 actually on that whole project.brassmedic wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 4:53 pmI worked on a lot of the Jinbao altos for Horn Guys. They were not playable from the factory. The reason those were priced higher was because we completely replaced the leadpipes and did a major overhaul on each instrument. Some had to be sent back because they just weren't viable instruments at all. Most if not all of the ones kept had either poorly drawn inner slide tubes, leaky solder joints, slides tubes wildly out of alignment or not straight, etc. They're not bad instruments once they are fixed up, but definitely not usable on a professional level the way they arrived.Matt K wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 8:43 pm It's obvious that some of the horns are marginally playable at best just as it is obvious that some horns are quite playable, evidenced by the early popular adoption in even professional settings of the alto trombones distributed by Horn Guys as of a few years ago before the lower price point horns had penetrated the market. So if your experience is primarily the former, it is going to be understandably difficult to think of them as anything but inferior.
$6k is quite a high price. Unless it is a game changer I doubt many people would buy one over an established European horn. If it was in the $3-4k range I would bet they would sell like nobody's buisness since it seems there aren't a lot of new options at that price range.Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:28 am But they told me that the pricing is going to be in the $6K range, which puts them almost up there with the German made instruments and well above something like the Packer 374, which is a really nice instrument for around $4K.
The Internet seems to have survived the announcement of the Shires euphonium.
I own an Adams E3 euphonium and like it very much, but I think it's a stretch to say it's "generally considered" the best. There are lots of different opinions. Brandon Jones in the US Air Force band had several custom Adams euphoniums made and is now playing the Shires. They have different flavors for sure, and I think he liked the way the timbre of the Shires fit into the band.Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:23 am At $6K, the Shires offering is 75% of the cost of an Adams, which is generally considered to be the best euph in the world.
My understanding of the situation is that in the specific case of Shires, you do not get instruments for free, you get a discounted instrument. I know that is also the arrangement for at least some Yamaha artists too. And presumably these artists had instruments before becoming artists too ...is the idea that they would purchase an inferior instrument to what they were on before to save a few hundred dollars? I mean I've never been approached by any company to be an artist (but I'm available if anyone is out there in a marketing department!timbone wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:26 am Having experience with Eastman trombones I have no worries about quality control. They have been some of my favorite trombones I have tried. They are also making huge gains in the tuba world it seems everyone is becoming an Eastman artist.
Yes this is true- They are making huge gains because you can have artists as long as you give things away.
) so all of my knowledge is secondhand but I could be way off base but I think the premise here is not totally correct.
