What is the best/worst trigger system for a two valved bass.

[imsevimse]

Whats the worst trigger system?

From easiest to most difficult. Only factory setup. My view on different systems for using 2 valves.
1. Split triggers - Kanstul 1662, Benge 290, Olds P24G. The ultimate setup. Smooth and good and well balanced.
2. The Glanz-bar - Holton TR180. Smooth when you've learned.
3. Button two in front of button one - The King 6b "Duo Gravis" setup. Smooth when you got the twist in your left hand to work.
4. Side by side rollers - Conn 62H, Conn 73H rollers. Smooth from one to two valves and vice versa when you learned.
5 Side by side rollers- Yamaha 612 rollers. Smooth to go from two valves to one but more difficult from one to two valves. I would consider fake notes to be able to play some patterns smoothly.
6. Two arms next to each other - Holton TR185 second valve with two arms in front of each other. Makes it Impossible to play legato when switching from one to two valves or vice versa. Works if you only use the two valves for sustained notes. You still need to use fake notes for fast runs.
7.Thumb to the side - Besson Sovereign model with a kind of backwards trigger. You push with the thumb to the side, not down as usual. Useless. The worst trigger system I've tried.

These are the one I've played.

/Tom

[BillO]

I'd say the worst is the one you really want but can't afford.

I played an Olds S23 in High school (about 300 years ago) - I didn't much like that arrangement. I now play an XO 1240 which has the typical split levers (thumb & fingers) of an independent bass. That seems to me to be best.

[Matt K]

I think it depends on what you're using it for and how your hands are oriented. I sought out and had Eric Edwards install a Duo Gravis on my dependent tenor and I totally love it. I need to get the second lever lowered a little but otherwise it works really well for intermittent use. If I were needing a ton of dexterity in that register... not as good. But I don't use that horn for that. My brace on that horn is also under the thumb, as is the Duo Gravis if I'm remembering correctly which helps out quite a bit.

[imsevimse]

I think it depends on what you're using it for and how your hands are oriented. I sought out and had Eric Edwards install a Duo Gravis on my dependent tenor and I totally love it. I need to get the second lever lowered a little but otherwise it works really well for intermittent use. If I were needing a ton of dexterity in that register... not as good. But I don't use that horn for that. My brace on that horn is also under the thumb, as is the Duo Gravis if I'm remembering correctly which helps out quite a bit.

I agree the "Duo Gravis setup" is not that bad. It works after you've learned to twist youre hand to reach that second button.

I guess if you've got small hands some of the setups will be out of the question. I think I have normal hands which probably is an advantage when playing a double trigger.. I can reach a duodecima on the piano.

I think most will agree the split trigger system is superior.

Anybody played a real terrible design like the one where you use the thumb to push to the side, like a Besson Sovereign?

/Tom

[Bonearzt]

IMHO, worst is the Holton "Glantz" bar! Followed by the older stacked paddles where you have to release the F to reset onto the Gb to press both.

Best is the one you feel comfortable with. USUALLY the typical thumb/middle finger arrangement we find on most horns now.
I learned two valved bass on a Duo-Gravis with the side by side, only a bit uncomfortable at the time if I was playing for long stretches of time, but using both triggers with my left thumb joint & tip worked OK.

Eric

[blast]

I think it depends on what you're using it for and how your hands are oriented. I sought out and had Eric Edwards install a Duo Gravis on my dependent tenor and I totally love it. I need to get the second lever lowered a little but otherwise it works really well for intermittent use. If I were needing a ton of dexterity in that register... not as good. But I don't use that horn for that. My brace on that horn is also under the thumb, as is the Duo Gravis if I'm remembering correctly which helps out quite a bit.

I agree the "Duo Gravis setup" is not that bad. It works after you've learned to twist youre hand to reach that second button.

I guess if you've got small hands some of the setups will be out of the question. I think I have normal hands which probably is an advantage when playing a double trigger.. I can reach a duodecima on the piano.

I think most will agree the split trigger system is superior.

Anybody played a real terrible design like the one where you use the thumb to push to the side, like a Besson Sovereign?

/Tom

The Besson Sovereign was supposed to be played with the thumb of the left hand on the F valve lever and the first finger of the left hand on the second valve lever. Not a great set up, but not as bad as using the thumb on the second valve lever... that would be impossible.

Chris

[whitbey]

I cannot reach the current second valve lever. I used to use the older Bach style side by side with a bar soldered on beside. After my thumb was dislocated that failed. I ended up with a Rube Goldburg style lever that works real easy.
The middle finger squeezes in along the slide brace. Photos in my profile.

[hyperbolica]

The Glantz bar, at first glance, ahem, seems like a great system. I've never used it, so as long as I don't use it I can keep that illusion. The thumb/finger arrangement seems pretty inefficient, especially for dependent systems, but it's the one I use.

I've used the King 6b arrangement, double thumb, and it's just a bad idea, even on paper. Both triggers pushing the same direction against different springs means your grip has to increase with each valve. That was one system I thought I could make work because I have double jointed thumbs, but it's the forces involved, not the joints that make it untenable.

I strapped a popsicle stick to my P24g to extend the second valve lever, and that worked. I had a coin soldered on to a Yamaha paddle to extend it a little to make it work.

One time I was bending a lever to reposition it and broke the solder joint. I was able to "repair" it temporarily with fly line backing and s2000 adhesive. It held for 2 years before I had to get it resoldered.

I imagine that an electronic valve actuator would be the ultimate in ergonomic flexibility, since you could place the buttons where ever you wanted. But the battery would be big, and the actuator might be cumbersome. Although RC hobby controls are very miniaturized, I'm not sure if they'd have the needed power.

[Bonearzt]

The Glantz bar, at first glance, ahem, seems like a great system. I've never used it, so as long as I don't use it I can keep that illusion. The thumb/finger arrangement seems pretty inefficient, especially for dependent systems, but it's the one I use.

I imagine that an electronic valve actuator would be the ultimate in ergonomic flexibility, since you could place the buttons where ever you wanted. But the battery would be big, and the actuator might be cumbersome. Although RC hobby controls are very miniaturized, I'm not sure if they'd have the needed power.

In THEORY the Glantz bar looks like a nice design, but just doesn't work well in practice.

Every-so-often I think about the RC actuators and momentary switches. There REALLY isn't THAT much force needed to move the valve!
Want proof?
Disconnect the lever from the stop arm & turn the rotor with your finger.
VERY little pressure is needed to move it in either direction!

And the motors are very light and do have some pretty hefty rotational torque. And the batteries needed would also be very light. Probably less than a wireless mic set up!

May have to work on this some more.....


Eric

[2bobone]

I have never, for the life of me, understood why the designers of trigger systems for double valve bass trombones decided to assign the operation of the "G" trigger to a finger whose role in supporting the weight of the instrument was so crucial ! Removing its ability to help support the weight and therefore forcing that function to the "ring" finger and "pinky" alone has caused tremendous damage to many players --- and will cause future damage to many who are still unaware of the damage that it can inflict. I would gladly have the King Duo Gravis "stacked" trigger system on EVERY instrument I own. Granted, the Duo Gravis is a dependent setup, but I see no reason that it couldn't be made to be workable for an independent setup. A major advantage is that your left thumb fits underneath the main bell brace which enables the player to support the weight of the horn very comfortably without installing one of the add-on devices with which we are all so familiar. I only know one individual who was unable to use the "stacked" triggers of the King Duo Gravis. He was a former student of mine who had had an accident which severed tendons in his left thumb making it impossible for him to articulate his left thumb at the first joint. I would have to be convinced otherwise that with the availability of the mini-ball joints used on so many instruments these days, that a far superior action could be engineered into the Duo Gravis system.
This may be a bit off subject but still relates to improving the grip on our cumbersome instruments. I had a conversation recently with a manufacturer of custom trombones about the added difficulty that bass trombonists encounter with the simple, but necessary act to operate the handslide water key on a "split-trigger" system. The player must #1- "Get Out of The Saddle" to allow your little finger to grasp the slide, lest it fall off the horn. #2- Remove your right hand from the slide bar so that it can reach down to the water key. #3- Operate the water key. #4- Bring your right hand back to grasp the slide bar. #5- Re-position your left hand on the triggers [ "Get BACK in The Saddle" ] while #6- releasing your little finger's grip on the handslide. Yeah --- I know --- it goes by in the flash of an eye, but the manufacturer I mentioned was surprised at all that was required, because even though he is a trombonist, he only has played on a straight tenor ! He had never thought about the fact that bass trombonists perform this function far more frequently than tenor players because of the comparatively huge amounts of air we move through our instruments and the resultant increase in condensation produced. For this reason, I've had a remote water key installed on several of my bass trombones for decades. It is a cinch to dump water in 7th position without any other action than flexing the middle finger of my right hand. It is also useful for "Flipping the Bird" to conductors that you find distasteful without them being aware ! I love the prospects of utilizing micro switching devices to operate both valves and water keys. Any trombone-playing model builders out there ? Just sayin' ! Cheers to all ! Bob








3

[greenbean]

I also like the Duo Gravis double levers. But it is not good for the arthritis in my left thumb! Ouch. I currently own a nice DG and I am having the levers "split." Yes, I will lose the middle finger's support of the horn but that is less of a problem with the DG's bell brace.

I also own a German-made bass trombone (Romeo Adaci) that has a remote water key lever. Nice! These are common in Europe. But not here in the US... for some reason...

... It is also useful for "Flipping the Bird" to conductors that you find distasteful without them being aware ! ...

^But I hadn't thought of this added benefit. Hilarious!

[sf105]

I have to use the Yeo grip on my DG to stop my hand seizing up. One day I'll get around to splitting the triggers but I think I'd also add some kind of hand rest to go with it so that I'm not carry the weight on 3 fingers.

[DougHulme]

I have a couple of DG's the silver sonic has had the triggers split. I found this really great technician in Copenhagen that did it (not for me but the previous owner) Superb job. Kept the bridge that the two trigers run on and extended the F trigger to be on the further G trigger , that increase in distance as small as it is makes a huge difference to the comfort factor of using the F trigger for long periods. OK so the DG isnt a bad system but why should the player 'adapt' and compromise, the increase in comfort of the conversion also brings a slight improvement in playing and if you have to operate the thing all day long it can make the diference to playing the next day. Maybe I'm not the best to comment because I still spend much more time playing a single valve than I do a dual valve. Kanstul system is excellent, lets hope it has a future manufacturer for it.