Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

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Bach5G
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Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

I’m looking at a Yam 611 bass. I have an old Yamaha catalogue but it only lists the 612 models and I haven’t found much on the internet.

The 611 (photos) look pretty similar to 612s.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by imsevimse »

I have a 612R. It is a dependent bass with side by side triggers and a roll in between. The bell is 10". The R is for red brass. It comes with Bb/F/Eb setup, but you could buy a D slide as an option. It is a horn that is very easy to play. The sound is big and broad, has a lot of mass. What I lack is smoothness and brilliance. It does not project like I want it to. I like better my Kanstul 1662 and my Holton 169 which project like mad. The best thing with the 612R is it responds very fast and is easy to play. Good horn.

/Tom
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by jpwell »

I have a 611 II red brass bell dependent Bb/F/Eb with the roller double triggers. Had some tubing added to make it a F/D modern setup. I play it in a brass band, conductor says I project real good. Have it pared with a Doug Yeo mps it rocks. Compared with my King 6b the 611 is better on the trigger range stuff for me.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by imsevimse »

Yes the Doug Yeo mouthpiece is a good match to the 612R too, real deep with a large hole. This horn works best with this larger mouthpiece, even though I usually play smaller on bass. It may be why there is less brilliance and a lot of mass to the Sound, but this is what makes this horn has its place in ny collection

I got the D-valve in original just after I bought the horn. It was my first bass trombone 1989. Soon I discovered it responded better with the Eb-valve, and even better with the second slide removed. I then bought another D-slide and had a repairman shorten it to make the shortest possible slide, it became a bE-slide just long enough to get a B on the far end of the slide. This way the horn responded better and faster.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bach5G
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

All well and good, but what were the differences between the 611 and 612?
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Specialk3700 »

Corrected me if I'm wrong but isn't the 611 stacked and the 612 is inline?
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by sirisobhakya »

Specialk3700 wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:12 am Corrected me if I'm wrong but isn't the 611 stacked and the 612 is inline?
612 is also stacked. The 613 and 613H are inline.

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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

CW is correct. Also, both models came in red and yellow brass. The later 612 models offered independent linkages. Some photos show a string linkage - I’m not quite sure when that changed. The early Yamaha horns (70s) had some issues with the chrome on the slides wearing (maybe they copied Conns a little too closely). All the 611 and 612 came in Eb - the availability of D slides isn’t clear. But otherwise I’m not sure what the major differences are.

Interesting horns from a bass trombone development perspective. Dependent string linkages evolving to independent mechanical linkages, Eb to D, 10” bells to 9.5” bells.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by jpwell »

611 is side by side
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by imsevimse »

It looks like the 611 has a different mechanism to push the valves. From pictures it looks like two "arms" that meet in the middle, and you have to lift the thumb when you go from one to two valves. The 612 has side by side triggers with a roll in between like a Conn 73h or a 62h, you roll with the thumb when you go from one to two valves. Not as easy as split valves but you get used to it. It looks like this is the upgrade that has been done from the 611, besides this they look the same. The lacquer on mine red brass 612 is mint condition but it seems the 611 I saw on Ebay had a lot of spots. Maybe the lacquer did change too.

/Tom
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

Based on a Yam catalogue I have, both the 611 and 612 had dependent linkages. That might have changed with the 612ii model. The catalogue, which is from the 612/612R era, also talks about levers with “built-in rollers”. At some point string linkages were replaced by mechanical linkage (I note CW’s photos show string linkage), likely about the time the 613, Yam’s in-line horn, was introduced.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by sirisobhakya »

Apart from the picture I also have a 612 myself. I donated it to my former school so I am not sure whether it is R model or not. If I have a chance I shall take a photo of the engraved model number today. It has red brass 10" bell, string linkage, and "thumb roller", which I had it changed to split trigger as soon as I could.

The past pro bass models of Yamaha are very confusing. You have the 611 and 612, of which 612 should be the later one. But then you have the 6110, of which 4 digits model number and nicer case suggest later history, but no 6120 as far as I know. Then you have 613 which is closed wrap, independent model, the 613G which is the gold brass bell of the 613, but the 613H is an open-wrap version with gold brass bell and no yellow brass bell option. Not to mention the (most likely JDM) 6130, 8130UG, 813G...
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

I’ve seen references to the 611, 611 II, 612, 612R and 612 R II, but have had no luck in sorting it all out.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by greenbean »

The 612II and 612RII had Eb and D slides. The 612 and 612R had only Eb. My 612RII is a great horn and has string linkages. It had the side-by-side paddles with rollers - that I could not make work, so I had the second paddle converted to a middle finger lever (and still string). I left the first valve paddle alone.

The valves on these horns were excellent.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

My catalogue refers to 612 (yellow brass) and 612R (red brass), both with Eb and D slides. No reference to the “II” designation.

I’m looking at a 611 with a 10” red brass bell. A D slide would be nice but I may have to have one made.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by sirisobhakya »

II indicates “later” model, like YSL-882UII or YSL-820GII. Small change(s) like rotor linkage or the inclusion of D slide. The basic horn is the same.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by bellend »

Here's an old flyer from the launch of the YBL611
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

bellend wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:49 am Here's an old flyer from the launch of the YBL611
Very cool. Thanks for that.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by sirisobhakya »

bellend wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:49 am Here's an old flyer from the launch of the YBL611
Do you have other model's as well? Very interesting.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Mikebmiller »

I had a 612 for a short time. I mostly remember it being heavy as hell.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by sirisobhakya »

Mikebmiller wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:01 pm I had a 612 for a short time. I mostly remember it being heavy as hell.
Heavier than my 830 and maybe even Bach 50B3. But I suspect that it maybe partially because of the balance of dependent valve system.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

Bigger bell. 10” v 9.5”.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by sirisobhakya »

Sorry. The Bach I mentioned is a 50B3L, with 10.5" bell.

The 10" bell is one thing that I don't like about the YBL-611/612. The distance between centerlines of gooseneck side and bell side seems to be the same for 9.5" models (like YBL-321) and 10" bell models. That makes the clearance between the bell and the slide so narrow. No problem for most I believe, but for me who grip the slide quite deep within an open hand, my nails have hit the bell so many times.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by ddsbstrb »

I also own a Yamaha 611-II, with the 10 inch red brass bell. I purchased mine from Brasswind/Woodwind, when they were in their original, first location in S. Bend IN. This was when Dennis Bamber owned the store; and, it operated out of an old house, if I remember it correctly. As others say, it came with only an Eb slide and had side by side roller levers with that great Yamaha string linkage *with that Yellow valve string.) I don't think I ever had one of those strings break. I purchased an optional D slide for my bass trombone; however, as another poster has stated, my 611-II played better and responded better with the 2nd valve in Eb!

Whatever year the International Trombone Festival was at Cleveland State University (maybe around 1992?) I played one of the 612-II's at the Yamaha booth at that ITF; and, it had a split trigger, with mechanical linkage, and maybe removable lead pipes which were threaded. I'm not sure if anyone had mentioned about the removable pipes on the later 612's.


BTW, mine had one of the problem slides, with plating issues on the stockings of the inner slide. I had to have the slide re-tubed many years ago. I also had Rob Phillips over at Buckeye Brass & Winds install the YBL 612 mechanical linkage with the split trigger linkage onto my 611. According to Rob, it was a major job. I think the original valves rotated in a different rotation than valves on the 612 with split triggers. Maybe some of the repair guys can speak about this issue.

I would say the difference would be removable lead pipes and how the valves rotated in the two configurations.

Yes, those 611's were really nice playing bass trombones, with a very reasonable price from a place like the original BW & WW.

Denny Seifried
Last edited by ddsbstrb on Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

Nice to hear from you Denny.

I was recently interested in acquiring a 612. I might have been able to live with the thumb trigger but the horn was a 611, there was no D slide and the slide was nickel or, possibly, silver plate.
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by ddsbstrb »

Bach 5G, I owned several bass trombones with roller, side by side valve levers. My first was a Reynolds Contempora, then came a my Holton TR-180, which I let my Holton Dealer talk me into sending it back to Elkhorn and having them install that Glantz "Magic-Bar" System. Big mistake! For me, the Magic-Bar, either didn't add the 2nd valve when you wanted it or added it when you didn't want it! I fixed that one when I sent that TR 180 out to Minick for a split trigger system and an open wrap D-Slide.

Somewhere in that same time period, I acquired a slightly used Elkhart 62H. I found the original Conn trigger system to be the best of the roller systems of either Holton or Reynolds. They used strings and had extremely short movement; and, I could always roll very easily over to that second valve. This horn went to Minick for an open wrap, new inner slide tubes and an open wrap D-slide. I never had him split the triggers. It wouldn't be until the NTSU International Trombone Festival, when I drove, taking that 62H with me, giving it to Eric Swanson, after a concert. He split the triggers for me.

Back to the 611 roller triggers. They were not as user-friendly as the Conn 62H rollers. Kind of difficult to play legato passages, with most side-by-side triggers, especially the Yamaha 611's. Now, I never experienced those Bach side by side triggers from the old Bach 50b2's; nor, did I experience the King 6B side by side's. I know both of those triggers were always altered on most of the older Bach's and King's. BTW, I don't have very large hands/fingers, which may have added to my problems with some of the roller-systems.

Just use the yellow Yamaha valve string and keep it adjusted, properly. It should work fairly well.


Denny Seifried
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Re: Differences between Yam 611 & 612 bass trombones?

Post by tbonesullivan »

Sorry for the "thread from the dead", but I ended up going down the rabbit hole on this, mostly because there just doesn't seem to be much information out there, which is surprising for a Yamaha horn. In their parts catalog, the YBL-611 does not exist, while they have versions of the YBL-612 going back to 1976. Also going back, all of the YBL-611s that I see have Red brass bells and brass slides, while the YBL-612s have yellow brass bells and brass slides. Both have the big 10 inch bells.

I think the only difference may have been the bell material. The valves, linkages, etc all look to be the same. Maybe Yamaha decided to rename the YBL-611 to the YBL-612R?

I should mention I can find more pictures of YBL-611, YBL-612, and YBL-612RII horns than any other listed configuration. I've never seen a YBL-612 II with the split triggers. Also, while the YBL-611 and YBL-612 had brass outer slides with oversleeves, the YBL-612 RII has an all nickel silver outer slide with drawn-in oversleeves.
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