Finding the custom horn for me

thetuningslide · Post by **thetuningslide** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:53 pm

Freshman in college here, and I'm thinking about starting the search for the "be all, end all" trombone. I'm on a Packer 332o currently and I love the tone I get from it, it just feels so cumbersome to play (slide is quite heavy). When I'll buy is a different discussion, but I'd at least like to start my search. I'm here in SW Ohio and looking to plan a big roadtrip to play on some of the finest horns out there. So far on my list are Rettig Music and Buckeye Brass here in OH, BAC and Brass Exchange in MO, and possibly M&W in WI. The trombones I'm looking to try are various by Greenhoe, Shires, Edwards, Rath, M&W (if I decide to detour there), and obviously BAC. Does anyone have any worthwhile brands or shops that I should look into for my journey? And if possible, does anyone know of a horn that could fit me based on the problems I'm facing currently? No intention to be blunt, but I've tried 88s, 42s, 4/5bs, Holtons and the such and they're just not something I could see playing for as long as I play, and I think I'm ready to start the transition to finding something perfect for me.

Thanks a ton,
-Austin

Trevorspaulding376 · Post by **Trevorspaulding376** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:17 pm

Do you know that you will always be on a large bore ? After college not sure it’s so much a nerd unless you are doing symphonic work , I’ve played in community bands on small bore horns and for my fun I enjoy the small horns better just think long term post college what type of playing you will be doing, it could change a lot between now and then. As a freshmen , you prob don’t want this advice , but unless you are like some Juliard type crazy good trombone player I’d hold off and buy a tried and true pro level horn like a good 42b and save the money on a custom for further down the road when you know what you will be playing post college , my 2 cents , I did have a middle school colleague that was a grade older that did get a scholarship to juliard for trombone and plays in symphony’s now , he plays the Alessi model large bore by Edwards , maybe before going custom try some of the stock configurations on like a shires q series large bore or one of the “stock “ horns by the boutique makers and then change out parts as you go

thetuningslide · Post by **thetuningslide** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:36 pm

Shires Q is high on my list, and Dillon has some used custom Shires up for around the same pricing as a Q. I'm not a crazy good prodigy by any means, I just don't want to buy a 42 and have to turn around and sell it when I'm ready for a true custom horn. And I'm very fairly certain I'll be on a large bore for many years. That's what I'm aiming at with this trip I'm planning. Just to get a real feeling of what kind of horn is for me as I'm completely green in the world of boutique horns.

walldaja · Post by **walldaja** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:36 pm

Give Royalton music at https://www.royaltonmusic.com.

It is up near Cleveland. Look at Yamaha 446/446 and Courtois AC260/280. Good values.

Mv2541 · Post by **Mv2541** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:44 pm

Not to be negative but if you are talking about a serious orchestra career, one of those brands is not like the other. How many top notch professionals are using a BAC vs how many play a Bach 42 (which it seems you think is inferior) of some flavor?

Also if you improve a fair amount, you'll change a fair amount and your needs will change a fiat amount. I would listen to Trevor on this one.

thetuningslide · Post by **thetuningslide** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:51 pm

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:44 pm Not to be negative but if you are talking about a serious orchestra career, one of those brands is not like the other. How many top notch professionals are using a BAC vs how many play a Bach 42 (which it seems you think is inferior) of some flavor?

Also if you improve a fair amount, you'll change a fair amount and your needs will change a fiat amount. I would listen to Trevor on this one.

Might as well try them out if I'm already in the state was my ideology. And by no means is a 42 "inferior" in my eyes, I've played on plenty. The horn just doesn't sit with me well to say it best. Like I said before, I'm just trying to inform myself of these horns and how they play with me personally at the moment.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:54 pm

Don't waste your time looking for the holy grail at this point in your life, primarily because the idea that a holy grail exists is just a figment of your desire for shiny stuff right now. You can't understand custom horn offerings until you understand what a standard 36b or 6h is all about. You don't know why M&W is better than Shires until you've played a beat up Beuscher. If you don't know the difference between the standard 88h and 42b, you really don't have the base line you need to understand anything else, hardware wise in the trombone world. You might look at it as just an education about what is out there. Your needs will change before you graduate, and they'll change again after that. The 332 is probably not holding you back, and in reality, it could serve you well for the next 30 years. I know kids get bored with stuff easily and always think they deserve something new. I play the same horn now that I played in jr high school (88h), but I had to waste a lot of time and money to appreciate it like I do now. You'll eventually grow out of that conceit. Forget BAC, the cake decorator. Brass Exchange is a good place to see a range of stuff, but Dillons in NY would be a better place.

As the other poster mentioned, try to have an open mind. Not just about bore, but everything. It might turn out that your all time favorite horn is a 1932 Conn 32h with no lacquer and a dented tuning slide. It's ok to have multiple favorites. The idea that you'll only ever play a 547 is a weird preconception forced by academics with an extremely limited focus. There is a lot of playing to be done out there that does not have to involve a large bore tenor.

JoeStanko · Post by **JoeStanko** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:56 pm

Trevorspaulding376 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:17 pm but unless you are like some Juliard type crazy good trombone player I’d hold off and buy a tried and true pro level horn like a good 42b and save the money on a custom for further down the road when you know what you will be playing post college , my 2 cents , I did have a middle school colleague that was a grade older that did get a scholarship to juliard for trombone

It’s spelled Juilliard on my diploma.

Trevorspaulding376 · Post by **Trevorspaulding376** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:03 pm

Whatever I didn’t go there... my bad

JoeStanko · Post by **JoeStanko** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:18 pm

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt..whatever..

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:20 pm

I think you can do better than the Packer 332, but you might need more than one horn. For example, a small tenor, a .525 and a .547. Maybe a bass and, if you’re so inclined, an alto.

LeTromboniste · Post by **LeTromboniste** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:59 pm

Some wise advice above that's worth listening to. You just started college and as much as that feels like you're getting closer, it's actually likely that you're still only about halfway between the day you first started playing trombone and the day you'll be starting a career. You *might* get a horn you'll play for the rest of your life, but you might also very well get a fancy new horn that won't fit your needs in 2 years... My advice would be, if you really feel you need a different horn, do try instruments, of many different kinds, but with an open mind, and focus on used instruments that you can resell for the same price if in a year it no longer fits your needs. You sneer at 42s and 88Hs but just as many people move back to those horns after playing "fancier" custom horns than the other way around. There's a reason they have been industry standards for decades and are still played by hundreds of professional players...

Don't spent 4500-6000 on an instrument that will lose half its resale value almost the minute you buy it. Get a good horn with good value for the price and don't waste your money on looking for the holy grail, you're gonna need that money a) when you realize that trying to make a living playing trombone is tough, financially b) when you realize that you need way more instruments than you ever thought you'd need (and the number never stops increasing) c) when you get to the point where you actually truly know what you need from an instrument and then actually do have good reasons to make the investment (which there's no way you do now, with all respect. We all think we've got it figured out when we reach the point you're at, but really the more we learn the more we get realize just how clueless we are).

ChadA · Post by **ChadA** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:26 pm

If you’re in SW Ohio, go to ITF in Muncie Indiana and try lots of horns. Before that, talk to your college teacher for advice. I’m in SW Ohio, too, if I can be of any help.

JLivi · Post by **JLivi** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:30 pm

thetuningslide wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:51 pm Might as well try them out if I'm already in the state was my ideology. And by no means is a 42 "inferior" in my eyes, I've played on plenty. The horn just doesn't sit with me well to say it best. Like I said before, I'm just trying to inform myself of these horns and how they play with me personally at the moment.

In my experience, Bach trombones in general don't sit well with me either. The slotting on any Bach I've tried (16, 36, 42, 50) has always been weird and causes me to be inaccurate. I think the wide crook has something to do with it.

A lot of these responses are beginning to sound more parental than anything. Don't take the "talking down to" personally. We're all here to help you regardless of the tone of the response. But I do agree with what some of the people here are saying. Most importantly, take time on your road trip to feel what makes each horn you play different from each other. You might even find that some of these boutique shops are using specs from the industry standards (Conn, Bach, etc). You'll eventually find what you're looking for, but don't get frustrated if it doesn't happen on this road trip. But who knows, it might!

I'm super jealous of your road trip

One thing you can think about too, if you want to save time and money (maybe) is go to the Midwest Clinic in Chicago. Every horn company is there where there best stuff. It's not like NAMM, but it's big.

Post by **Matt K** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:39 pm

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt..whatever..

The point isn't without merit whether one knows how to spell the name of a school or not. It depends on your career aspirations and your present level of development. If you're at one of the "top" music schools there's a good chance you're developed enough to actually be stable to a certain degree with regard to your development. If you aren't, there's a good chance you'll make a lot of changes with how you play throughout college. When I started college, the 8820 was a great horn for me but I quickly outgrew it, which isn't to say that the Yamaha is a bad horn but my playing changed such that it no longer worked for me very well by sophomore year. I also did not go to The Juilliard, for what it's worth.

With that all in mind, the Shires Q series that others have mentioned is a really good deal for someone in your position. It's modular with existing components and is a very common setup so even if it isn't perfect for you now, it's a good bet that if it was perfect for you now, it wouldn't be perfect by the time you got to senior year. But you get it now and practice on it and in a few years you pick up a used component here and there or even buy it new and you still come out ahead unless you basically swap the whole horn out. Additionally, if you graduate and aren't doing the audition circuit and want a medium bore, you can get a 525 or 525/547 slide for it without modification.

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:53 pm

If you have money to spend on a trip, go to the ITF July 10-13 in Muncie IN. It is well worth it just to attend the clinics and concerts, but you can also try just about every horn there is, all in one place.

Post by **blast** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:35 am

You will NEVER find THE trombone.

There, I've said it and I bet most of the pros here were thinking it.

You get a good instrument that you know is used in the contexts that you want to work in by pro players, then you work at it, to get to know it and to get the best out of it. Many young players get a very slotted instrument that sounds good in a small room.... then gradually they realise the limitations of that kind of set up. If you are really smart you will get your professor to select a trombone for you.

Chris

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:28 am

mkay.jpg

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:11 am

blast wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:35 am You will NEVER find THE trombone.....If you are really smart you will get your professor to select a trombone for you.

This is completely untrue. And while a suggestion from a teachers is good, I let no one spend my money for me, not even my wife (and since shes not on here to disagree, I can stick to that

)

SwissTbone · Post by **SwissTbone** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:43 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:11 am
blast wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:35 am You will NEVER find THE trombone.....If you are really smart you will get your professor to select a trombone for you.

This is completely untrue...

Please elaborate.

Post by **Matt K** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:03 am

I think this is going to boil down to pedantics to a large degree. What is a 'perfect' horn? For what length of time is it perfect?

If you're an active professional... or even just an active player... there's a good chance what you are playing is going to change at least every few years. New venues, new ensembles, etc. For example, for a period of time, Matt Guilford with the NSO used a Monette mouthpiece and some kind of dependent Shires perhaps(?) that worked really well for the hall. Then if I'm recalling the story right, the hall underwent some renovation which caused the acoustics to shift. What was previously the 'perfect' setup for that environment no longer worked and now he play son something quite different than that setup. And even for the amateur player... you suddenly go from 3rd to 1st bone in the local big band etc. What may have worked swimmingly well for years suddenly isn't quit cutting it.

The other side of that coin is to lower the resolution for what perfect means; which is to say that the definition of perfect is perhaps more akin to what the marketing of the T396 indicates where the horn is 'good enough' basically anywhere or flexible enough that it can be optimized for what you primarily do and then good enough for the edge cases.

I think they can both be quite reasonable definitions of 'perfect'.

Specialk3700 · Post by **Specialk3700** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:31 am

I would just pick up a shires q series or a used Edwards/Shires for a good price. In 3-5 years you're more than likely going to want another horn so I wouldn't take the loss of getting one fitted for you.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:54 am

I keep thinking the “end all be all” horn is not a .547 but, rather, something along the lines of a King 3B/F or a Bach 36. Frankly, if the linkage was a little more conventional/comfortable, the King would be as close to perfect as one is likely to find. And DJ could send you a nice one for not very many dollars.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:53 am

Road trip to try horns is not too efficient. ITF is maybe a better way to go to try new horns. Most if not all of those horns will be there.

BAC -- they make a good horn, called the Elliott Mason model. The special brace/grip on the outer slide is like a wire, and is not that comfortable. But it plays really nice. I don't think it's what most college music students need unless they are really jazz focused and already trying to come to grips with switching from a .547 to a small bore.

I think a road trip is a bad idea, and even ITF can be somewhat limiting, for this reason:

The longer your trip goes, the longer it will have been since you practiced under normal conditions. On a road trip, you will probably begin dehydrating immediately, and practicing in a hotel is limiting or not allowed. By the time you get to warm up on your own horn at a shop prior to trying horns, the Taco Bell, coffee, and car sunburns will have taken a toll. You might think something is amazing, but after you get back to normal at home it might turn out to be not so great. Likewise at ITF, you might not be traveling much while there, but you won't be practicing normally, eating or drinking normally, and when you do test a horn, there will be 100 people all blasting "The Big A's" all around you at 137Db.

Custom horns and mouthpieces are great. They can help you get the sound you're after pretty easily if you know how to objectively test them. Bring a friend who knows.

Regarding the 88H:

http://www.tarrodi.se/cl/index.asp?show=15

Used horns can be great. If I was a college freshman, I'd start trying all my buddies' horns. You probably will quickly find out if you fall into one of the Edwards, Shires, or Rath camps. If that's the case, you're in luck because you can piece a horn together used for a lot less.

thetuningslide · Post by **thetuningslide** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:40 am

Thanks for all the replies. Just to once again clarify, I don't have any resentment towards Conn or Bach trombones, they're great horns and I like playing on them, just not things I want to try and justify myself to spend a couple thousand on. Shires Q is a really bi competitor in my book, but I've heard Shires horns in general play bright which isn't exactly what I go for, someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Conns feel somewhat too lightweight to me in how the play. Like there's not enough material to resonate how I want it to, and 42s I don't particularly like the slotting on some notes as previously mentioned by someone. Like I said, I love the sound of my 332 but it feels heavy and cumbersome in the slide. As for trying my buddies' horns, all my studio mates play a 42 or an 88 (with a 4b and a 165f sprinkled in), so I've played the 2 extensively. BAC isn't a good idea anymore I now realize but I still want to go out to try some horns. ITF is an idea, but that time of year will be very busy for me as I have to set up housing for next semester.

Fun fact: my prof (Jaime) will be playing there, more reason for me to go.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:45 am

I’m sure you can set up a Shires to play any way you want.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:01 pm

I'm surprised an entire studio is on 42s and 88Hs

thetuningslide · Post by **thetuningslide** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:08 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:01 pm I'm surprised an entire studio is on 42s and 88Hs

It's surprising indeed. One of my freshman buddies plays on Jaime's old 42 actually, there's another 42 player that plays a newer one, the top 2 chairs play an 88h and an 88hcl, I think one benge and one king, and Jaime himself plays on a courtois.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:45 am I’m sure you can set up a Shires to play any way you want.

I'll keep that in mind when I try some out, thanks.

Post by **Matt K** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:26 pm

Shires Q is a really bi competitor in my book, but I've heard Shires horns in general play bright which isn't exactly what I go for, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

You'll also hear exactly the opposite. What happens is that someone tries a horn at a convention and generally assumes modular makers are like solid state horns (soldered together) where there are a small set of possible options that generally play fairly similar to one another because they come as models (like the Bach 42, Conn 88, YSL8820 etc.). Just the stock leadpipe options on the modular makers makes a substantial difference in how one plays, let alone all the other parts. You can get a 'dud' if you put together an entire set of parts that is not very complimentary, but buying a used horn blind without playing it is somewhat risky regardless of the manufacturer.

That isn't to say the Shires Q is going to be the end all be all horn or that you'll end up on Shires if you go for that but it's a sensible set of components that can be easily swapped out which is a real plus. In your position, you are also likely to find a used pro horn at a good price that fits the bill. It also isn't likely to be the end all be all either but it'll be cheaper. The 88s you've tried are possibly all say, an 88LT. Even between models of the same horn that have a small set of possible combinations, there is a surprisingly wide variation in how any give horn plays. In other words, I wouldn't necessarily rule anything out but if I were buying blind I'd go with the Q or try to make it out to a convention like the ITF. Or find someway to try out a used horn that you intend on buying. Dillon Music has an entire room filled with used horns. Brassark offers a return policy and has a pretty killer collection of used stuff too.

mfellows821 · Post by **mfellows821** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:11 pm

Get advice from your instructors. Do NOT automatically assume they know what is good for you. A good number are totally prejudiced for or against certain horns. Finding the holy grail is almost impossible because your playing and ideas do change. Bachs tend to be VERY inconsistant. The best ones are superb, the worst are OK. Yamahas are pretty much exactly alike- all good. The custom horns will have to be evaluated part by part and that takes some real time- not just a few minutes at ITF which IS a great place for intial exposure. Sadly you will not know whether you made the right choice for several months after you start playing on your new horn and if you go modular they can be a money pit as you try something different a bit down the road. I would go to ITF, try a bundh and narrow it down a bit then find a place you can spend time with your choices- maybe even a money back return policy.

I strongly suggest adding Adams to your list (it is somewhat modular as well). I have owned everything you list at one time or another, love my Greenhoe, but am really struggling whether it is better for me than the Adams I bought because it blew me away at a convention.

Good new is that all the trombones mentioned are very good to great instruments and will help your playing a few percentage points. You are the other 98%.

mfellows821 · Post by **mfellows821** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:42 pm

And don't ignore Rath trombones. their custom horns are as good or better than the ones mentioned above

thetuningslide · Post by **thetuningslide** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:52 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:26 pm
Shires Q is a really bi competitor in my book, but I've heard Shires horns in general play bright which isn't exactly what I go for, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
You'll also hear exactly the opposite. What happens is that someone tries a horn at a convention and generally assumes modular makers are like solid state horns (soldered together) where there are a small set of possible options that generally play fairly similar to one another because they come as models (like the Bach 42, Conn 88, YSL8820 etc.). Just the stock leadpipe options on the modular makers makes a substantial difference in how one plays, let alone all the other parts. You can get a 'dud' if you put together an entire set of parts that is not very complimentary, but buying a used horn blind without playing it is somewhat risky regardless of the manufacturer.

That isn't to say the Shires Q is going to be the end all be all horn or that you'll end up on Shires if you go for that but it's a sensible set of components that can be easily swapped out which is a real plus. In your position, you are also likely to find a used pro horn at a good price that fits the bill. It also isn't likely to be the end all be all either but it'll be cheaper. The 88s you've tried are possibly all say, an 88LT. Even between models of the same horn that have a small set of possible combinations, there is a surprisingly wide variation in how any give horn plays. In other words, I wouldn't necessarily rule anything out but if I were buying blind I'd go with the Q or try to make it out to a convention like the ITF. Or find someway to try out a used horn that you intend on buying. Dillon Music has an entire room filled with used horns. Brassark offers a return policy and has a pretty killer collection of used stuff too.

That's one of the reasons I loved the sound of a Shires Q with its interchangeability with custom Shires parts. I might end up going to the east coast instead to play on some horns at Dillon and some other good places I can find. Thanks for the advice

mfellows821 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:11 pm Get advice from your instructors. Do NOT automatically assume they know what is good for you. A good number are totally prejudiced for or against certain horns. Finding the holy grail is almost impossible because your playing and ideas do change. Bachs tend to be VERY inconsistant. The best ones are superb, the worst are OK. Yamahas are pretty much exactly alike- all good. The custom horns will have to be evaluated part by part and that takes some real time- not just a few minutes at ITF which IS a great place for intial exposure. Sadly you will not know whether you made the right choice for several months after you start playing on your new horn and if you go modular they can be a money pit as you try something different a bit down the road. I would go to ITF, try a bundh and narrow it down a bit then find a place you can spend time with your choices- maybe even a money back return policy.

I strongly suggest adding Adams to your list (it is somewhat modular as well). I have owned everything you list at one time or another, love my Greenhoe, but am really struggling whether it is better for me than the Adams I bought because it blew me away at a convention.

Good new is that all the trombones mentioned are very good to great instruments and will help your playing a few percentage points. You are the other 98%.

Hadn't even considered Adams yet, thanks for bringing them to my attention. And I'm very well aware that my playing is based a vast majority on my skill level, sometimes I like to practice a bit on one of my student horns just to remind myself of that

mfellows821 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:42 pm And don't ignore Rath trombones. their custom horns are as good or better than the ones mentioned above

Not at all, that's for sure. I'll definitely look into whatever I can get my hands on.

Fafner · Post by **Fafner** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:28 am

With higher end professional playing in the northeast it seems everyone uses Edwards or Shires with the occasional Greenhoe or Bach sprinkled in. Occasionally you'll see some Conn when downsizing--I'd never recommend taking an audition on one. I agree with Bruce that you'll never find "THE" horn. If you actually pursue a professional career you're going to need to buy another horn or two down the road.

I think the real reason you don't see as many people playing Bach these days is that you have to spend as much money or more setting it up how you like it as you would just buying a Shires or Edwards to start with.

There were trends where a lot of people played Rath for a while but no one does anymore. Seems like the same is happening in NY with Courtois horns (I'm Boston based so that is just an outsider's perspective on occasional gigs with NY people).

Post by **Matt K** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:30 am

Fafner wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:28 am With higher end professional playing in the northeast it seems everyone uses Edwards or Shires with the occasional Greenhoe or Bach sprinkled in. Occasionally you'll see some Conn when downsizing--I'd never recommend taking an audition on one. I agree with Bruce that you'll never find "THE" horn. If you actually pursue a professional career you're going to need to buy another horn or two down the road.

I think the real reason you don't see as many people playing Bach these days is that you have to spend as much money or more setting it up how you like it as you would just buying a Shires or Edwards to start with.

I've played some really good Conns and Bachs for that matter. Though the best playing 88 I've played did have some modifications done to it. Bell section was reassembled (and open-wrapped fwiw) and had an Edwards pipe (made pressfit) in it. I think the advantage and primary reason you see such a plethora of modular horns is that they can be adapted to the player more easily. But you still see numerous horns with relatively few options in the pro world (Yamaha, Bachs, Conns (particularly in Europe)). For those individuals for who they work, they work really well and so if one works well ('pefectly' I dare say) for you, that's great news because you saved ~$1-$3k!

There were trends where a lot of people played Rath for a while but no one does anymore. Seems like the same is happening in NY with Courtois horns (I'm Boston based so that is just an outsider's perspective on occasional gigs with NY people).

I'm not sure how much you can derive from that other than it being a large, but still niche market. Despite being a huge city with lots of trombonists, its still a small sample. Conrad Herwig is on Rath still if I"m not mistaken and he is definitely not a nobody!!

Similarly, the NY Met plays on Courtouis. So on and so forth. There are a lot of options out there and there's more than one way to skin a cat. Unfortunately, people do sometimes hear with their eyes which is oddly enough one of the advantages I've found to having all franken horns is people actually don't know what to think about anything I bring anywhere so they actually evaluate it instead of assuming they won't blend with something because of brand or that it's too [insert something they heard secondhand] about that brand, etc.!

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:38 am

Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.

SwissTbone · Post by **SwissTbone** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:05 am

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:38 am Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.

Of course you can! But setting up the dates would take a lot of time.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:19 am

Lol, the Piccola. Good one!

thetuningslide · Post by **thetuningslide** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:51 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:38 am Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.

THAT would be a fun trip

I fly a lot for family reasons (my mom's filipino and has family everywhere), so if I have a chance to go to Europe (which I definitely will some time or another), trombones will definitely be a priority.

LeTromboniste · Post by **LeTromboniste** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:47 pm

My experience with makers in Europe is they are typically much smaller operations than in the US, and they are very welcoming of people stopping by (best with an appointment of course) to try instruments and visit the workshop. The market here tends to be a lot more based on direct sales from the maker to the client, instead of going through dealers, so their business kind of relies on having people come over to try instruments. Some of those places are one-man shops (or nearly) so coordinating dates can be challenging.

brtnats · Post by **brtnats** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:02 pm

There’s no such thing as perfect. To see proof of that just look at the top tier pros in your desired field and look at how often they make either major or minor changes. To even remotely think you could pick a perfect horn for your future, as a college freshman, is so loaded with hubris that I don’t really know where to start. So I’m just going to leave it there. There’s no such thing as perfect. Not really even a ballpark of perfect.

castrubone · Post by **castrubone** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:26 pm

Food for thought: http://peterellefson.com/blog.html

Read his recent blog on equipment. Great wisdom being disseminated for free.

Post by **blast** » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:25 am

castrubone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:26 pm Food for thought: http://peterellefson.com/blog.html

Read his recent blog on equipment. Great wisdom being disseminated for free.

Peter is full of great wisdom period. Glad it's not just me that thinks that sounds have gone wrong.... and it's a pain to have to work with such sounds.

Chris

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:36 am

Wow, lots of negative stuff here, guy is looking to step up his horn game and the debbie downer replies are just absurd. Why argue semantics about a perfect horn, when everyone knows full well what he means?

Anyhow, let me see if i can be helpful. Your best bet is to start is trying a lot of different gear, with no reservations. In other words, its very common for someone to say they want x y and z, but then by being open to everything that is out there, ending up with a b and c instead. Another idea at this point is if you can get a ballpark idea what you like, have something made specifically for you should nothing off the shelf be exactly what you want.

Personally, I had a custom shires bass at 15, and at 16 knew i wanted someone even more specific, so had a bell section made to my specs. Best thing i ever did really, gave me exactly what i was looking for, and the sound coming out of the horn matched what i had in my head. Stuck with the shires slide for a long time though, fwiw.

Im not sure if budget came up too extensively, but be prepared to drop a large amount of money, especially if you want a one of one custom job. Someone like BAC will literally do anything you want, and their work is really good, but you pay for it. Mike is a good guy, and he genuinely wants to put quality out there, so he charges what he needs to in order for his company to grow and continue to service the trombone community well into the future. He doesnt want to be the next nightmare story of a company closing up shop, and doesnt want to cut corners on your horn either.

The big advantage of going to someone like this is the relationship and know how of the craftsman. Tell them when you are looking for, then take their input. I guarantee they will understand how to translate what you say into the horn you want, it's literally their job. I get clients all the time that ask for something specific, then contradict themselves by saying what they want from their horn, and it'll be a complete 180 from the horn they are asking for. Sometimes they are open to a suggestion, sometimes not, but the ones that are end up happier with their horn in the end.

Also, its never a bad idea to record yourself while trying horns. It will give you a better comparison from horn to horn, thats more accurate than your memory.

If you were local I'd gladly invite you here to play some stuff!

TheSheriff · Post by **TheSheriff** » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:44 am

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:38 am Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.

====

I had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. It is a great horn but the ergonomics killed me and I had to sell it. It's very front heavy, and if it were not for that, I'd still have it.

====

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:53 am

BAC will indeed make whatever you want.

Post by **blast** » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:10 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:36 am Wow, lots of negative stuff here, guy is looking to step up his horn game and the debbie downer replies are just absurd. Why argue semantics about a perfect horn, when everyone knows full well what he means?

Anyhow, let me see if i can be helpful. Your best bet is to start is trying a lot of different gear, with no reservations. In other words, its very common for someone to say they want x y and z, but then by being open to everything that is out there, ending up with a b and c instead. Another idea at this point is if you can get a ballpark idea what you like, have something made specifically for you should nothing off the shelf be exactly what you want.

Personally, I had a custom shires bass at 15, and at 16 knew i wanted someone even more specific, so had a bell section made to my specs. Best thing i ever did really, gave me exactly what i was looking for, and the sound coming out of the horn matched what i had in my head. Stuck with the shires slide for a long time though, fwiw.

Im not sure if budget came up too extensively, but be prepared to drop a large amount of money, especially if you want a one of one custom job. Someone like BAC will literally do anything you want, and their work is really good, but you pay for it. Mike is a good guy, and he genuinely wants to put quality out there, so he charges what he needs to in order for his company to grow and continue to service the trombone community well into the future. He doesnt want to be the next nightmare story of a company closing up shop, and doesnt want to cut corners on your horn either.

The big advantage of going to someone like this is the relationship and know how of the craftsman. Tell them when you are looking for, then take their input. I guarantee they will understand how to translate what you say into the horn you want, it's literally their job. I get clients all the time that ask for something specific, then contradict themselves by saying what they want from their horn, and it'll be a complete 180 from the horn they are asking for. Sometimes they are open to a suggestion, sometimes not, but the ones that are end up happier with their horn in the end.

Also, its never a bad idea to record yourself while trying horns. It will give you a better comparison from horn to horn, thats more accurate than your memory.

If you were local I'd gladly invite you here to play some stuff!

What you call negativity some of us call good advice. Practise and taking lessons with good teachers is FAR more important than some fancy trombone that is a triumph of hype over reality.
Nothing negative about that.

Chris

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:26 am

blast wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:10 am
LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:36 am Wow, lots of negative stuff here, guy is looking to step up his horn game and the debbie downer replies are just absurd. Why argue semantics about a perfect horn, when everyone knows full well what he means?

Anyhow, let me see if i can be helpful. Your best bet is to start is trying a lot of different gear, with no reservations. In other words, its very common for someone to say they want x y and z, but then by being open to everything that is out there, ending up with a b and c instead. Another idea at this point is if you can get a ballpark idea what you like, have something made specifically for you should nothing off the shelf be exactly what you want.

Personally, I had a custom shires bass at 15, and at 16 knew i wanted someone even more specific, so had a bell section made to my specs. Best thing i ever did really, gave me exactly what i was looking for, and the sound coming out of the horn matched what i had in my head. Stuck with the shires slide for a long time though, fwiw.

Im not sure if budget came up too extensively, but be prepared to drop a large amount of money, especially if you want a one of one custom job. Someone like BAC will literally do anything you want, and their work is really good, but you pay for it. Mike is a good guy, and he genuinely wants to put quality out there, so he charges what he needs to in order for his company to grow and continue to service the trombone community well into the future. He doesnt want to be the next nightmare story of a company closing up shop, and doesnt want to cut corners on your horn either.

The big advantage of going to someone like this is the relationship and know how of the craftsman. Tell them when you are looking for, then take their input. I guarantee they will understand how to translate what you say into the horn you want, it's literally their job. I get clients all the time that ask for something specific, then contradict themselves by saying what they want from their horn, and it'll be a complete 180 from the horn they are asking for. Sometimes they are open to a suggestion, sometimes not, but the ones that are end up happier with their horn in the end.

Also, its never a bad idea to record yourself while trying horns. It will give you a better comparison from horn to horn, thats more accurate than your memory.

If you were local I'd gladly invite you here to play some stuff!
What you call negativity some of us call good advice. Practise and taking lessons with good teachers is FAR more important than some fancy trombone that is a triumph of hype over reality.
Nothing negative about that.

Chris

The guy asked about a horn, not about teachers. So in this case, sorry, no.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:25 pm

CharlieB · Post by **CharlieB** » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:20 pm

Austin........
I get it . You're not ready to buy yet, but you want to learn as much as you can about different trombones; you can't have too much knowledge. Even if your preferences change in the future, you'll have a mental data base for a reference. Better yet, make yourself a little write-up as you try each horn, just so that they don't all run together in your head down the road. If you want, you could even take your Packer along to use as a benchmark for rating each trial horn. Sounds like a great trip. Play as many horns as you can, and have fun !!!! All the heavy duty stuff discussed above can come later.

thetuningslide · Post by **thetuningslide** » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:20 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:36 am Wow, lots of negative stuff here, guy is looking to step up his horn game and the debbie downer replies are just absurd. Why argue semantics about a perfect horn, when everyone knows full well what he means?

Anyhow, let me see if i can be helpful. Your best bet is to start is trying a lot of different gear, with no reservations. In other words, its very common for someone to say they want x y and z, but then by being open to everything that is out there, ending up with a b and c instead. Another idea at this point is if you can get a ballpark idea what you like, have something made specifically for you should nothing off the shelf be exactly what you want.

Personally, I had a custom shires bass at 15, and at 16 knew i wanted someone even more specific, so had a bell section made to my specs. Best thing i ever did really, gave me exactly what i was looking for, and the sound coming out of the horn matched what i had in my head. Stuck with the shires slide for a long time though, fwiw.

Im not sure if budget came up too extensively, but be prepared to drop a large amount of money, especially if you want a one of one custom job. Someone like BAC will literally do anything you want, and their work is really good, but you pay for it. Mike is a good guy, and he genuinely wants to put quality out there, so he charges what he needs to in order for his company to grow and continue to service the trombone community well into the future. He doesnt want to be the next nightmare story of a company closing up shop, and doesnt want to cut corners on your horn either.

The big advantage of going to someone like this is the relationship and know how of the craftsman. Tell them when you are looking for, then take their input. I guarantee they will understand how to translate what you say into the horn you want, it's literally their job. I get clients all the time that ask for something specific, then contradict themselves by saying what they want from their horn, and it'll be a complete 180 from the horn they are asking for. Sometimes they are open to a suggestion, sometimes not, but the ones that are end up happier with their horn in the end.

Also, its never a bad idea to record yourself while trying horns. It will give you a better comparison from horn to horn, thats more accurate than your memory.

If you were local I'd gladly invite you here to play some stuff!

Thanks for all the great ideas! I'm taking this trip with the most open mind possible. I'm planning on trying many bachs and conns as well that most of these stores undoubtedly have. And I'm no stranger to "negative" comments. Most people here have much more experience and skill than I so I generally try to take the most I can from them all. Where are you located by the way?

CharlieB wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:20 pm Austin........
I get it . You're not ready to buy yet, but you want to learn as much as you can about different trombones; you can't have too much knowledge. Even if your preferences change in the future, you'll have a mental data base for a reference. Better yet, make yourself a little write-up as you try each horn, just so that they don't all run together in your head down the road. If you want, you could even take your Packer along to use as a benchmark for rating each trial horn. Sounds like a great trip. Play as many horns as you can, and have fun !!!! All the heavy duty stuff discussed above can come later.

Interesting, I didn't think of writing my thoughts on each, that sounds very helpful. And I fully anticipate bringing my current horn to compare against.