Finding the custom horn for me

CornyBone
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by CornyBone »

Wow... this is quite a thread.
Not that you need my 2 cents. But as a senior in college, I was in your exact position 3 years ago. My gear wasn't working for me, and it was noticeably holding me back. I think this trip your taking is an awesome idea. It's a really great chance to get a real sense what there is available out there. If something's not working for you (and you have the financial means to change) then change it. However, I'd suggest you don't go in looking for a "be all, end all" horn. Because as basically everyone else said, that not what you're going to get right now. Find something that works for you NOW (preferably with a good resale value, used instruments are a very good option) and reassess a little further down the road. I personally switched from a Bach 36 to a Conn 88h my freshman year, and then to a Shires last summer, a lot can change in four years as a student. However, I can assure you I improved a lot faster (which is necessary in college) when I had equipment that was working with me, not against me. I hope your trip goes well!

P.S. It might've already been said. Your professor is a helpful resource, but they are human, and have their own biases, both when it comes to instrument manufactures, and even sometimes in how they want you to sound. The person who should be making the final decision is you. Trust your ear (unless you're trying carbon fiber trombones, then all bets are off)
thetuningslide
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by thetuningslide »

Well, officially registered for ITF. Looking forward to possibly seeing some of you there. Probably going Friday and Saturday.
RJMason
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by RJMason »

Have fun at ITF! You can try everything and have a better idea.

In college I had an R4F which I loved. But after school I realized I wasn’t doing many orchestral jobs. If you are dedicated to that path than the recommended horns everyone else has discussed would be great (Conn, Bach, Shires!, Rath!!).

Unless you win an audition in the future and/or dedicate yourself to symphonic playing, you may end up just selling your new .547 to get a few more used horns, more sounds in your arsenal depending on the job. I eventually sold my Rath which helped me get a used Bach 36B, conn 88h when I need .547, and a couple small bores.

Definitely find your “dream” horn setup if possible at ITF and then test that sound (take voice memo recordings if it isn’t too loud in there ha!) against some vintage horns at a shop. You may find yourself preferring the cheaper used horn and have more money to buy other equipment (euphonium? Tuba? Recording equipment?).

BAC quality is way up the last few years, great team, and mike makes great horns. But in my opinion it’s better to have a few years freelancing really honing in what music you are playing and developing your sound concept before you make a trip to KC and have a horn made. I made the mistake of getting one of his horns too early in my career and ended up not being happy. Live and learn. I know that day will come for you!

By the way, visited Inderbinens shop last week while on tour in Europe. The horns are AMAZING!!!! He has a new Piccola Nera (lighter bell played better than the original Weight bell to me) with carbon fiber outer slide tubes he prototypes. It is a monster. And has a balance weight on the outer slide sleeve which helps balance it out. The 8.5 inch bell Ballet w f attachment is also beautiful! But a bit heavy... May have to sell all of my other trombones to buy one. The hype is real, those bells sing!
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by 2bobone »

How clearly I remember one of my most influential teachers, Karl Rucht, who at the age of 18 was principal trumpet of The Berlin Philharmonic, saying, "Robert -- The instrument CANNOT change -- YOU must change" ! Fast forward to today and the absolute opposite can apply. With the plethora of bell materials, slide materials, dual radii & single radius slide bows, leadpipes of every exotic material and dimension, harmonic "pillars", regular rotors, Hagmann, Thayer, Greenhoe, Olson etc, ----- it is nigh onto impossible for a player to experience them all, let alone have enough time to evaluate them to any degree of satisfaction. The law of "Combinations and Permutations" comes into play and shows us that we'd have to live several lifetimes to try every possible combination of the options available today. A subject of one of the Egyptian Pharaohs was granted a wish as thanks for a favor he had done for the Pharaoh. He requested a simple wish : A grain of wheat on the first square of a chessboard, two grains on the second, four on the third and so on, doubling on each square ----. His wish was granted, but upon closer scrutiny it was discovered that this "simple" wish amounted to the entire wheat production of Egypt for several decades ! Swap grains of wheat for trombone options and you can see the immensity of the problem with which we are dealing.
Perhaps the best strategy is for you it to find an instrument that produces the SOUND you have in your head as an ideal trombone sound [it never changes] and then follow Karl Rucht's advice ---- YOU must then do the changing ! Just sayin' ---------
Last edited by 2bobone on Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
brtnats
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by brtnats »

harrisonreed wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:25 pmWow
This right here is why almost every professional player left TTF (Doug Yeo, Sam Burtis, Ralph Sauer, etc). The internet can give solid advice from Chris Stearn, one of the finest trombonists alive on the planet, and juxtapose it with some guy who calls a big Eb-alto trombone a bass, and make them both look equally credible.

OP should take a screenshot of what blast said below about practice and lessons and paste it inside his case. Be better off for it.
Posaunus
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Posaunus »

We have indeed lost some valuable contributors, but remaining on TromboneChat (and participating in this thread) are two very successful, knowledgeable, articulate professional trombonists - Chris Stern ("blast") and Bob Kraft ("2bobone"). As "brtnats" has noted, their advice is wise and valuable. Take heed!
blast
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by blast »

brtnats wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:42 pm
harrisonreed wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:25 pmWow
This right here is why almost every professional player left TTF (Doug Yeo, Sam Burtis, Ralph Sauer, etc). The internet can give solid advice from Chris Stearn, one of the finest trombonists alive on the planet, and juxtapose it with some guy who calls a big Eb-alto trombone a bass, and make them both look equally credible.

OP should take a screenshot of what blast said below about practice and lessons and paste it inside his case. Be better off for it.
You are FAR too kind. I am a regular pro, doing my best and paying the bills. A lot better players around than me.

The gentleman that disagreed with my view had a Shires at 15 and a custom trombone at 16, but this, as far as I know, did not lead him into a professional position, but expensive equipment never does lead to a career. Equipment is a means to an end, nothing more. That said, equipment IS important and I look at the equipment that my students use very carefully indeed, often finding them instruments and mouthpieces that really suit them. No blanket recommendations... everyone is unique. I have been doing this since 1991 so I suppose that I have a bit of experience in the area. It's funny, students here are not obsessed with equipment and do not generally look to that area to solve problems. Makes my teaching easier.

Chris
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by LIBrassCo »

brtnats wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:42 pm
harrisonreed wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:25 pmWow
This right here is why almost every professional player left TTF (Doug Yeo, Sam Burtis, Ralph Sauer, etc). The internet can give solid advice from Chris Stearn, one of the finest trombonists alive on the planet, and juxtapose it with some guy who calls a big Eb-alto trombone a bass, and make them both look equally credible.

OP should take a screenshot of what blast said below about practice and lessons and paste it inside his case. Be better off for it.
Baritone trombone, and in Db.

If you feel the need to make light of me and least be accurate! :good:
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Schlitz
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Schlitz »

.
Last edited by Schlitz on Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Savio
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Savio »

I admire Chris because he gave me a reason, a hope and a way to keep on playing the trombone! 12 years ago I sent a mp3 file to the old forum and two people answer; Chris and Sam Burtis. They both told the same thing; it was ok but the timing was a little rush, so I blame both of them for the other mp3 I made after. :weep:

Anyway, I read every word Chris write. He gives a "gem" in everything he write! And he dont sell anything. :good:

Leif
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by blast »

Schlitz and Savio, you are too kind.

A lot of the heat in this thread has come from the possibility of two approaches to the OP's question. The simple and probably more forum correct approach is to answer the question that the OP has set directly and without looking beyond it.
Less within the rules is to consider the OP's question and if you think that the OP is wrong in his/her question, point out why you think this, in a reasoned and reasonable way. This is what I and several others have done..... and it has upset some other members, both because they think we are wrong in thought and because they think we are wrong in process.
I feel, after so many years of teaching and performing, an obligation to at least flag up to young players, my concerns when they are looking at certain courses of action that I consider unwise or unproductive. I don't care if that upsets some. It is a duty.
It is honestly laughable to think that a young player, not yet at college, will be able to select the instrument that will be ideal for their future development and later sonic needs. The best they are likely to be able to do is select the maker and model who's hype they most buy into and the horn that looks prettiest to them.... and at that stage, such an instrument may be best for them...... might even work out later on. Feedback from more experienced professionals and experience in real life playing situations will (not might) lead to changes down the line, both in conceptual and equipment areas.
A tour listening to great orchestras and jazz combos... anything with trombones played at a high level.... that is an investment.... and that should be the main reason to go to ITF.

Chris
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by LIBrassCo »

blast wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:51 am
A lot of the heat in this thread has come from the possibility of two approaches to the OP's question. The simple and probably more forum correct approach is to answer the question that the OP has set directly and without looking beyond it.......

.....It is honestly laughable to think that a young player, not yet at college, will be able to select the instrument that will be ideal for their future development and later sonic needs.
See, theres a fundamental issue here, and it lies in devaluing the OP due to your own perception. In your opinion, experience rules, and because he is young he isnt capable of selecting a horn for himself. Via extension, you then feel the need to not answer his question, but instead tell him what he should be asking, and answer that instead. I'm sure someone will blow up on me for saying so, but why let your own ego of "knowing better" prevent you from just answering the guy?

Nowhere in there was he granted the possibility of being an exceptional player who knows exactly what he wants. I have personally heard 19 year olds play at a level that puts 95% of experienced players to shame, and for all any of us know the OP plays on the level.

I'm sure I'll get personally attacked now, but before anyone does, keep this in mind. This is supposed to be a place for players of all ages and levels to be able to converse as equals. Telling someone their question is wrong, ask this instead, and here's the answer, isnt a great way to encourage people to contribute.

Just sayin.

And now will come all the comments that will try to make light of me for inventing a horn, or whatever else they can come up with to discredit me because I see things differently. Sigh.
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sirisobhakya
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by sirisobhakya »

The OP is asking for the "be all, end all" trombone.

The experienced players here know that there will be no "be all, end all" trombone, and answer the OP so.

I think this point is clear.

Also, the problem that OP now has, as far as I can see, is that *the slide is quite heavy*, which does not justify changing the horn, let alone changing to custom horn. Moreover, as many have stated, the taste and concept will change over time, and most likely the OP has to change the horn again.

Yes, it's his money, it's his horn. But they are essentially trying to help him save the money by advise him the true root cause. I think it is even better than just answering the question.
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by harrisonreed »

Wow
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BGuttman
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by BGuttman »

We frequently get questions from players either going from High School to College or early College who think it's time to "upgrade".

People like Chris (Blast) have seen an awful lot of these students and know what happens when they get a new trombone at this stage. In more cases than not the player's needs change as he (or she) develops. This even goes for prodigies and good players.

Most of us will find a "be all end all" horn that is a lot more pedestrian because the limit to our playing is us and not the horn. A good teacher can identify when it's time to change.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by LeTromboniste »

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:02 am Nowhere in there was he granted the possibility of being an exceptional player who knows exactly what he wants. I have personally heard 19 year olds play at a level that puts 95% of experienced players to shame, and for all any of us know the OP plays on the level.


Except you don't grant the possibility that the argument brought forth by all of us is valid no matter if he's an exceptional player or not.

As you aptly pointed out, being an exceptional player doesn't necessarily require experience - yet knowing yourself and knowing what fits your needs and knowing how your needs might evolved, that does require experience (and does not require being an exceptional player). A player can very well be both exceptional and clueless.

The first exceptional player I ever met is now one of the top freelancers back home and he regular subs and tours with a major symphony. I have no doubt he will win a major audition sooner or later. I met him my first week of college. He was playing a shiny new Shires for which he had carefully chosen the components to fit his needs. Fast forward 2 or 3 years and he was admitting that in hindsight he didn't have a clue what his needs were when he bought the horn, just what he thought they were, and that he couldn't possibly have predicted how his playing had since evolved and what he'd be needing just a few years later. He struggled to sell his horn and I think he had to settle for quite a bit less than it was worth. Has been playing on 42s for several years since.

It's a fairly common story.

I'm curious, how many exceptional players do you know who still play on the same horn as when they were 19?
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by LIBrassCo »

LeTromboniste wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:03 am
LIBrassCo wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:02 am Nowhere in there was he granted the possibility of being an exceptional player who knows exactly what he wants. I have personally heard 19 year olds play at a level that puts 95% of experienced players to shame, and for all any of us know the OP plays on the level.


Except you don't grant the possibility that the argument brought forth by all of us is valid no matter if he's an exceptional player or not.

As you aptly pointed out, being an exceptional player doesn't necessarily require experience - yet knowing yourself and knowing what fits your needs and knowing how your needs might evolved, that does require experience (and does not require being an exceptional player). A player can very well be both exceptional and clueless.

The first exceptional player I ever met is now one of the top freelancers back home and he regular subs and tours with a major symphony. I have no doubt he will win a major audition sooner or later. I met him my first week of college. He was playing a shiny new Shires for which he had carefully chosen the components to fit his needs. Fast forward 2 or 3 years and he was admitting that in hindsight he didn't have a clue what his needs were when he bought the horn, just what he thought they were, and that he couldn't possibly have predicted how his playing had since evolved and what he'd be needing just a few years later. He struggled to sell his horn and I think he had to settle for quite a bit less than it was worth. Has been playing on 42s for several years since.

It's a fairly common story.

I'm curious, how many exceptional players do you know who still play on the same horn as when they were 19?
I am in no way saying tastes do not change, nor am i saying the OP necessarily knows exactly what he wants-most people in general do not. But thats why hes trying to get feedback on horns, more importantly everyone knows full well what he is asking. He wants a step up into a horn specialized for him, and wants to know whats out there. Maybe a better horn will make the difference he is looking for, maybe it wont. But it is what he wants to know about.

Best example i can give you is myself. In high school I played a custom holton 181 bell with dual bore shires slide, and a shires indy thayer, gold brass 9.5" bell, b2L leadpipe, and dual bore slide, both fantastic playing horns. I'd still be playing them today had i not needed the money for other things, only having sold them within the last year.
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by BGuttman »

I think what we were saying was wrong was the concept of a "be all, end all" horn. Had I bought a nice horn when I was just going to college I'd probably be still playing it today, but I chose not to become a professional trombone player. Who knows? Maybe a large bore trombone in Db with a Gb attachment would be perfect for me ;).

Fact remains, there are too many stories about how needs change as you study trombone in college. I'd bet money that you are never the same player you were after your tenure in college as before, and your needs change as well.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by LeTromboniste »

But nobody said don't try horns or don't buy a better horn if you feel you need an upgrade.

What we all said is maybe the "be all, end all" ideal should be revised, and that it's probably a better idea at this point not to waste money on an expensive roadtrip which in the big picture will have served little purpose and had little impact, and not to waste money now on a new, fancy custom horn when he can find used horns that will also be an improvement at half the price or less and will be much easier to sell and recoup the investment when he truly knows what to look for.


For the record, my modern trombone is still the same horn I got when I was 15 and although I don't use it much anymore, if I was still playing modern trombone it's the one I'd use, so I know it's entirely possible to get a horn that you would play your whole life. But it's not because I'm an exceptional player (I'm really not) or because I knew what to look for (I really didn't and I was mostly wrong on about everything I thought I needed). I just got extremely lucky on a blind eBay buy and upgraded the horn itself when I needed rather upgrading to another horn.
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greenbean
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by greenbean »

I say: Buy a used pro horn. Then, when your needs/wants change, you won't take a beating when you sell it and buy something different (also used). Save the new horns for the days when someone is paying you to play!
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Posaunus »

greenbean wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:34 pm I say: Buy a used pro horn. Then, when your needs/wants change, you won't take a beating when you sell it and buy something different (also used). Save the new horns for the days when someone is paying you to play!
:good:
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by blast »

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:02 am
blast wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:51 am
A lot of the heat in this thread has come from the possibility of two approaches to the OP's question. The simple and probably more forum correct approach is to answer the question that the OP has set directly and without looking beyond it.......

.....It is honestly laughable to think that a young player, not yet at college, will be able to select the instrument that will be ideal for their future development and later sonic needs.
See, theres a fundamental issue here, and it lies in devaluing the OP due to your own perception. In your opinion, experience rules, and because he is young he isnt capable of selecting a horn for himself. Via extension, you then feel the need to not answer his question, but instead tell him what he should be asking, and answer that instead. I'm sure someone will blow up on me for saying so, but why let your own ego of "knowing better" prevent you from just answering the guy?

Nowhere in there was he granted the possibility of being an exceptional player who knows exactly what he wants. I have personally heard 19 year olds play at a level that puts 95% of experienced players to shame, and for all any of us know the OP plays on the level.

I'm sure I'll get personally attacked now, but before anyone does, keep this in mind. This is supposed to be a place for players of all ages and levels to be able to converse as equals. Telling someone their question is wrong, ask this instead, and here's the answer, isnt a great way to encourage people to contribute.

Just sayin.
I find it regrettable that you comprehend so little of what I am saying. I have the highest regard for young people who wish to study music in general, and the trombone in particular. Far from wishing to devalue them, I wish to offer them advice that will allow best use of the time they devote to study, based on 28 years of college teaching. Ego.... really, that comment is not even worth a reply. I have offered advice that normally costs money for free as a contribution to this place and have done for many years here and elsewhere. I gained much from experienced players in my younger years and am happy to 'pay back' and pass on what was passed to me. It is the least the older generation can do. I post far less than I used to as I often now ask myself if it is worth the bother. A lot of the time, it's not.

Chris

<Edit: Fixed Quote - BGuttman>
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Bach5G »

I got to thinking about Ian Bousfield, who was an exceptional young player at one time. Conn 88H at the conservatory. I became aware of him when he showed up in town promoting the Yam 682B in his LSO day’s. Back to Conn with Vienna. Now Getzen. And I’m sure there have been several more.

If I had the end all-be all, I wonder: would it be the 42B I had in music school or the 88H I have now, or any of the other horns I’ve had in between: Yams, Minicks, Williams, Shires, Edwards? Even with the benefit of 40 years of hindsight I can’t answer that question. There were none I regret buying and a few that I regret selling.
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by DougHulme »

I do a bit of work on trade stands sometimes... seems to me that the pros are mainly the ones who cant afford or perhaps choose not to buy bespoke horns. The weekend warriors (and students with parents money) with other jobs are the ones who keep the manufacturers in business!! I know thats a sweeping general statement and is not entirely true but as a general rule...
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by brtnats »

blast wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:46 pm
I find it regrettable that you comprehend so little of what I am saying. I have the highest regard for young people who wish to study music in general, and the trombone in particular. Far from wishing to devalue them, I wish to offer them advice that will allow best use of the time they devote to study, based on 28 years of college teaching. Ego.... really, that comment is not even worth a reply. I have offered advice that normally costs money for free as a contribution to this place and have done for many years here and elsewhere. I gained much from experienced players in my younger years and am happy to 'pay back' and pass on what was passed to me. It is the least the older generation can do. I post far less than I used to as I often now ask myself if it is worth the bother. A lot of the time, it's not.

Chris

<Edit: Fixed Quote - BGuttman>
@Chris: I find it deeply regrettable that somebody so consumed with his ego and hubris has the audacity to turn that on you, a gentleman of the highest order. I’ve heard you play, I’ve watched his videos, when he was posting under his other name. The proof is in the playing, and I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest that perhaps one of you vastly improved since secondary school and one did not, despite his Shires.

@Doug:

I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately as I’m practicing my way through a problem I’m having in an ensemble. My immediate reaction was to make a quick mp change to crisp everything up. But, the group was meeting so often, and I was doing so much other playing, that changing a mouthpiece for one gig started to have an unwanted toll on the other. So I kept the equipment the same and I modified my practice and mental routine to compensate. A full time gigging musician doens’t often have the luxury of experimentation during a busy booking season. They find something that works, they play it, and they modify the soft machine to meet the goals. It seems reasonable that weekend warriors are the ones with the time to keep swapping parts and trying things out.
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by DougHulme »

I'm sure I'll get personally attacked now, but before anyone does, keep this in mind. This is supposed to be a place for players of all ages and levels to be able to converse as equals. Telling someone their question is wrong, ask this instead, and here's the answer, isnt a great way to encourage people to contribute
But we are not all equals. I know Chris and have spent time with him... if he told me I had asked the wrong question I would ask him what was the question I should have asked! I'm as long in the tooth as Chris and have played as long as him but I readily see someone who knows more than me and I wouldnt hesitate to ask his advice and guidance. I'm not his equal when it comes to the trombone though I might be his friend.
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by ArbanRubank »

Bach5G wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:47 pm I got to thinking about Ian Bousfield, who was an exceptional young player at one time. Conn 88H at the conservatory. I became aware of him when he showed up in town promoting the Yam 682B in his LSO day’s. Back to Conn with Vienna. Now Getzen. And I’m sure there have been several more.

If I had the end all-be all, I wonder: would it be the 42B I had in music school or the 88H I have now, or any of the other horns I’ve had in between: Yams, Minicks, Williams, Shires, Edwards? Even with the benefit of 40 years of hindsight I can’t answer that question. There were none I regret buying and a few that I regret selling.
:good:

Personally, my concept of "the ideal horn", or that certain "custom horn" (as the OP put it) has evolved as I have evolved; both as a musician and as a trombone player. So, what I played several years ago and how I attempted to play it has given way to successive iterations and to what I currently have and how I am currently trying to play. Am I done evolving yet? Prob'ly not. Have I found the permanent "ideal horn" or one that I have been able to "customize" yet? Prob'ly not.
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Posaunus »

My observations over many decades of playing music and attending many hundreds (perhaps thousands) of live performances:

The working pros are not generally the ones who obsess about equipment and having the latest thing. They typically settle on something that works for them and play their gear for years – perhaps trying something new from time to time, or changing only as their needs vary. The experimentation of their youth has long died away. [All that is null and void for the very few famous players who get involved with a manufacturer that makes special equipment to their prescription. It’s to their mutual benefit to keep turning out product “innovations.”]

The trend-followers are more likely to be:
  • students who are still seeking and want to play what the big boys play [and who have budgets – perhaps funded by wealthy parents – to follow their dreams] in their quests for improvement and success, and
  • grown-ups like many TromboneChat members [many of us very active performers who sometimes get paid for playing] who have enough time and disposable income to experiment with different gear. [Seeking a Nirvana that they will of course never achieve!]
This kind of behavior is of course not limited to trombonists or to musicians in general – there are lots of products (e.g., basketball shoes) whose sales are driven by imitative or idol-following behaviors (be like Mike - or Steph!).

Eventually some (most?) of us grow up and work with what we have, and enjoy it.

I hope to get there myself some day! :idk:
norbie2018
Posts: 892
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:10 am

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by norbie2018 »

Posaunus wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:36 pm My observations over many decades of playing music and attending many hundreds (perhaps thousands) of live performances:

The working pros are not generally the ones who obsess about equipment and having the latest thing. They typically settle on something that works for them and play their gear for years – perhaps trying something new from time to time, or changing only as their needs vary. The experimentation of their youth has long died away. [All that is null and void for the very few famous players who get involved with a manufacturer that makes special equipment to their prescription. It’s to their mutual benefit to keep turning out product “innovations.”]

The trend-followers are more likely to be:
  • students who are still seeking and want to play what the big boys play [and who have budgets – perhaps funded by wealthy parents – to follow their dreams] in their quests for improvement and success, and
  • grown-ups like many TromboneChat members [many of us very active performers who sometimes get paid for playing] who have enough time and disposable income to experiment with different gear. [Seeking a Nirvana that they will of course never achieve!]
This kind of behavior is of course not limited to trombonists or to musicians in general – there are lots of products (e.g., basketball shoes) whose sales are driven by imitative or idol-following behaviors (be like Mike - or Steph!).

Eventually some (most?) of us grow up and work with what we have, and enjoy it.

I hope to get there myself some day! :idk:
Ralph Sauer switched to Shires after many years on Conn. Ronald Barron switched to Edwards after years going between Bach and Conn. Norman Bolter switched to Shires after years on Conn. Joe Alessi began on Bach and then to Getzen and now to Edwards. Koishiro Yamamoto switched to Edwards after years being sponsored by Yamaha. I would hardly call these players students or enthusiasts. They are world class players who found a better tool for the job.

The equipment isn't always the answer, but it sure can help.
Bach5G
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Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Bach5G »

Ralph Sauer switched to Shires after many years on Conn. Ronald Barron switched to Edwards after years going between Bach and Conn. Norman Bolter switched to Shires after years on Conn. Joe Alessi began on Bach and then to Getzen and now to Edwards. Koishiro Yamamoto switched to Edwards after years being sponsored by Yamaha. I would hardly call these players students or enthusiasts. They are world class players who found a better tool for the job.

The equipment isn't always the answer, but it sure can help.
[/quote]

This rather underscores the point: the young man in search of the ultimate horn is, I’d venture, no Ralph Sauer or Joe Alessi. Not yet, anyway.
Posaunus
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Location: California

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Posaunus »

norbie2018 wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:00 pm Ralph Sauer switched to Shires after many years on Conn. Ronald Barron switched to Edwards after years going between Bach and Conn. Norman Bolter switched to Shires after years on Conn. Joe Alessi began on Bach and then to Getzen and now to Edwards. Koishiro Yamamoto switched to Edwards after years being sponsored by Yamaha. I would hardly call these players students or enthusiasts. They are world class players who found a better tool for the job.

The equipment isn't always the answer, but it sure can help.
Of course many players switch when they encounter something clearly better than what they have used for "many years" (or even decades) - or (for some of these high-end performers) get support from a sponsoring manufacturer. But all of these cited spent a long time playing "what got them there" and didn't spend much of their energy (like so many of us Trombone Chatters) constantly searching for the holy grail. I've been guilty of this myself, and am trying to settle down and just play better on the (wonderful - and mostly old) equipment I already own.
Specialk3700
Posts: 130
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Location: Ohio

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Specialk3700 »

I would say the best thing for you to do is go try as many trombones as you can. It's a lot of fun and can be eye opening. Then I would buy a USED horn most similar to what you liked the best. Then as you go on you can try and trade different parts as you like.
Engineering student with a trombone problem.
Edwards B454
Shires Bravo
Yamaha 354
norbie2018
Posts: 892
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:10 am

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by norbie2018 »

Posaunus wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:14 pm
norbie2018 wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:00 pm Ralph Sauer switched to Shires after many years on Conn. Ronald Barron switched to Edwards after years going between Bach and Conn. Norman Bolter switched to Shires after years on Conn. Joe Alessi began on Bach and then to Getzen and now to Edwards. Koishiro Yamamoto switched to Edwards after years being sponsored by Yamaha. I would hardly call these players students or enthusiasts. They are world class players who found a better tool for the job.

The equipment isn't always the answer, but it sure can help.
Of course many players switch when they encounter something clearly better than what they have used for "many years" (or even decades) - or (for some of these high-end performers) get support from a sponsoring manufacturer. But all of these cited spent a long time playing "what got them there" and didn't spend much of their energy (like so many of us Trombone Chatters) constantly searching for the holy grail. I've been guilty of this myself, and am trying to settle down and just play better on the (wonderful - and mostly old) equipment I already own.
Unless I'm mistaken, those other options (Edwards & Shires) did not exist when the afore mentioned players started. Had they, perhaps different instrument choices would have been made.

I'm not stating that everyone should run out and purchase the latest model trombone, but it sounded to me like the OP is on a quest for a new horn. Perhaps a stock horn would do. But perhaps a modular horn, which could be changed as the OP's playing evolves, would be the more prudent choice.
Fidbone
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Location: UK

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Fidbone »

TheSheriff wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:44 am
Bach5G wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:38 am Anyone remember the Inderbinnen Piccolo? Briefly a Holy Grail for some.

I’d like to go on a trip to Europe that combined concert halls, soccer stadiums and trombone makers. (I wonder if you can drop by and visit Schagurl, Thein, HAAG, Voigt bros, Inderbinnen, etc.
====

I had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. It is a great horn but the ergonomics killed me and I had to sell it. It's very front heavy, and if it were not for that, I'd still have it.

====
Hey Scott,
Thomas has made a new lighter model.
If I was still in the market and still had my full time theatre job I'd probably go back there as I loved my original Piccola like you. But had the same issues as you!

Here's the link if you've not seen it.............. https://www.inderbinen.com/en/piccola-nera-en

Best wishes,
Chris.
TheSheriff
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:11 am
Location: Deep in the Ozarks of Missouri

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by TheSheriff »

Fidbone wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:32 am
TheSheriff wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:44 am ====

I had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. It is a great horn but the ergonomics killed me and I had to sell it. It's very front heavy, and if it were not for that, I'd still have it.

====
Hey Scott,
Thomas has made a new lighter model.
If I was still in the market and still had my full time theatre job I'd probably go back there as I loved my original Piccola like you. But had the same issues as you!

Here's the link if you've not seen it.............. https://www.inderbinen.com/en/piccola-nera-en

Best wishes,
Chris.
===

Hi Chris,

It's not gonna happen for me either, besides, I am extremely happy with my Lawler trombones. Do you know what the protruding thing-a-ma-jigs are on the Piccola's cross braces near the bell side?

----
Lawler model 1
Lawler model 2
Lawler Model 3
Williams 6
Williams L
Kanstul 1606
Conn 71H
Fidbone
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:14 am
Location: UK

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by Fidbone »

TheSheriff wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:50 am
Fidbone wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:32 am Hey Scott,
Thomas has made a new lighter model.
If I was still in the market and still had my full time theatre job I'd probably go back there as I loved my original Piccola like you. But had the same issues as you!

Here's the link if you've not seen it.............. https://www.inderbinen.com/en/piccola-nera-en

Best wishes,
Chris.
===

Hi Chris,

It's not gonna happen for me either, besides, I am extremely happy with my Lawler trombones. Do you know what the protruding thing-a-ma-jigs are on the Piccola's cross braces near the bell side?

----
I think the bell is removable!
TheSheriff
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:11 am
Location: Deep in the Ozarks of Missouri

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by TheSheriff »

Fidbone wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:19 am
TheSheriff wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:50 am ===

Hi Chris,

It's not gonna happen for me either, besides, I am extremely happy with my Lawler trombones. Do you know what the protruding thing-a-ma-jigs are on the Piccola's cross braces near the bell side?

----
I think the bell is removable!
-----

Makes sense. Thanks

====
Lawler model 1
Lawler model 2
Lawler Model 3
Williams 6
Williams L
Kanstul 1606
Conn 71H
RJMason
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:04 pm
Location: Nashville

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by RJMason »

TheSheriff wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:22 pm
Fidbone wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:19 am I think the bell is removable!
-----

Makes sense. Thanks

====
Yeah, removable bell on all models. I played the Inderbinen horns two weeks ago at his shop. The Nera felt way better balanced than the original and sounded better for the gigs I do (Original was great but leaned a little more “legit” sounding than the Nera). His carbon fiber slide prototype (everyone’s cashing in I guess) is better than even the Butler I own. Extremely high cost and wait time is prohibitive to me at this time.
TheSheriff
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:11 am
Location: Deep in the Ozarks of Missouri

Re: Finding the custom horn for me

Post by TheSheriff »

RJMason wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:02 pm
TheSheriff wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:22 pm -----

Makes sense. Thanks

====
Yeah, removable bell on all models. I played the Inderbinen horns two weeks ago at his shop. The Nera felt way better balanced than the original and sounded better for the gigs I do (Original was great but leaned a little more “legit” sounding than the Nera). His carbon fiber slide prototype (everyone’s cashing in I guess) is better than even the Butler I own. Extremely high cost and wait time is prohibitive to me at this time.
----

Thanks for the info.

===
Lawler model 1
Lawler model 2
Lawler Model 3
Williams 6
Williams L
Kanstul 1606
Conn 71H
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