Advantages of axial flow valves

[norbie2018]

I've played large bore trombones with rotors since I started at 15: Holton tr150, various Bach 42b, and, for the last 10+ years, a slightly modified Yamaha 882go. All I know are rotors. What are the advantages of axial flow valves?

[Burgerbob]

The members here will tell you that they are air hogs and not worth it, of course... And I am selling mine! But, I think they are some of the best choices for bass trombones.

The 42 also takes very well to a Thayer. I have played several with different kinds of axials that were very good.

Basically, you are dealing with less resistance. The blow is much different from the perspective of the player, both with and without the valves. If you can supply the air, then it's just a good thing.

The sound is also different. You'll get a larger, broader sound with the valves engaged than with most other valves. This is what draws me to them for the most part.

Play some!

[norbie2018]

Play some!

That's my intent.

[harrisonreed]

I actually perceive more resistance on an axial. It probably has to do with how I use my air (I use a lot). I like them.

[TheBoneRanger]

The sound is also different. You'll get a larger, broader sound with the valves engaged than with most other valves. This is what draws me to them for the most part.

I'd agree with this, and add that it also has an influence on articulation. Thayers have quite an effect over all aspects of a horn.

I actually perceive more resistance on an axial. It probably has to do with how I use my air (I use a lot). I like them.

It could also be that you are generating more resistance at the lips in order to counter the more open instrument.

For all of the above reasons, after many years, I find myself gravitating away from instruments with axial valves.

Andrew

[norbie2018]

I'd agree with this, and add that it also has an influence on articulation. Thayers have quite an effect over all aspects of a horn.

How does it influence articulations?

[elmsandr]

You can get addicted to how they blow, especially on a bass bone. It can just be so easy and open down low that you seem powerful and fully in control with less effort.

I still love them, but I am turning gradually to easier maintenance horns. A couple of Shires trubores and a 60-70 year old rotor. I do miss blowing the hinges off some times, but it really is a lot easier for everything else with a slightly tighter valve.

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

I'd agree with this, and add that it also has an influence on articulation. Thayers have quite an effect over all aspects of a horn.

How does it influence articulations?

There's less to blow against, so you have to provide more of the articulation yourself. I'm using a Hagmann set right now and having a hard time dialing that back, actually...

[TheBoneRanger]

How does it influence articulations?

Like most equipment choices, the answer is: it depends.

Generally speaking, because a Thayer-equipped horn is more open (and often heavier and slower responding), a horn so-equipped necessitates a different approach to your air in order to gain the same 'ping' to the front of the note.

There are ways to overcome such things, of course, and these characteristics may actually be of benefit to your personal approach to playing.

Andrew

[fwbassbone]

I played a Shires Bollinger model for a couple of years and went back to rotors when I got my Greenhoe. For me the the Greenhoe works better but there are plenty of people who sound great on axials. Go with what feels best to you. The two bass trombones I have now are the Greenhoe and an Edwards B502. I like them both but thats me, your opinion may vary greatly.

[norbie2018]

If a person likes the openness in blow and broadness of sound axial flows provide but wants "help" from the horn for articulation, can this be provided by leadpipe choice? Harmonic brace on the edwards?

[Matt K]

If a person likes the openness in blow and broadness of sound axial flows provide but wants "help" from the horn for articulation, can this be provided by leadpipe choice? Harmonic brace on the edwards?

Yeah so basically the horn is a collection of its parts and so a Thayer won't necessarily work on any collection of components just in the same way a rotor may not. There are horns that are middle-of-the-road enough to work on both depending on what you want out of it... but there are other horns where it probably won't be a good fit for just about anyone.

The clearest example of this that I've experienced was two Shires tenors that I owned. Both were really great horns... one was a 2.5SS, T47LW, rotor, seamed yellow ts, 2RVET7. The other was a '2', TB4762, thayer, drawn gold ts, and a 2Y. So rather different on paper. As I mentioned, each horn played really well; I preferred the former but I definitely see the appeal in the latter. Very close. However, when I swapped the valves... no dice on either horn. Former became really diffuse and the second was a hard blow. Swapping the slides around brought things into focus on one and made it easier on the other but still not so good... ditto on the leadpipe. But the closer I got to their original configurations, the better they were.

So in my estimation the literal and simple answer to your question is, "No." However, it would be more accurate to say, "It depends." Thayers aren't a panacea in the same way that any other component isn't a panacea, but they *can* be on a horn that otherwise feels tight or overly difficult to steer. In other words... the Thayer itself isn't necessarily causes it to blow the way it does but it is a major factor as is the leadpipe BUT it isn't guaranteed that the end result will be a horn that is open in blow w/ broadness of sound. However, historically it has worked because throughout the 80s, 90s it seems like most people were 'upgrading' Bach horns, and heavy ones at that. Those tend to be good horns to transition to thayers. And the leadpipe also is fairly conducive to that way of playing as well. (I believe similar to a Shires 1.5 if I've been told correctly).

[hyperbolica]

I can see why people get seduced by axials. The first time I played a set, I was kind of blown away by how little resistance there was. But then I realized that resistance is what makes the world go round, trombonistically speaking. I prefer the horn providing the resistance rather than having to think about providing that myself at the chops. I play a Kanstul 1662i with the open-ish CR rotors (CR for controlled resistance). I think they work like some of the big Shires rotors, but they're made differently (and a bit lighter).

Plus, axials are tougher to maintain, it seems. And heavy.

Someone else mentioned Hagmanns. I think I'd go that way if I had to make another choice. They make for a funky wrap, but seem to have some similarities to rotors in how they play, with a bit more openness.

[ExZacLee]

I really dug the openness of the Axial - if you feel like a traditional rotor gives too much pushback, you might dig the axial. That low B in T7+ is easiest with an axial IMO.

I didn't dig the air hog factor so much, but adjusting to it wasn't difficult. It's just different. Never had adjustment or maintenance issues, I don't eat before I play and I take pretty good care of my equipment - and I don't open up my triggers. If you like to eat before you play you might wanna find something else.

Worst part of axial was the throw... my thumb/left hand got tired well before the chops ever did.

[harrisonreed]

I don't agreee with axials being tough to maintain. Who is deciding that? I don't even play on axials, but I'd prefer to maintain them. Anyone who has ever reseated a bearing plate would know that axials, which literally come apart with a twist of a few screws and a ring, are way easier to take apart and clean.

[Burgerbob]

Yup, I much prefer to take an axial section apart to clean than rotors. It looks scarier because the bell section ends up in so many pieces!

[norbie2018]

I get the impression that if you oil axials every couple of weeks and clean them out every 6 months to a year you're good to go.

[Burgerbob]

It depends. I had to clean my last set every couple of weeks, and I would probably clean valves more often than 6 months apart...

As for oiling, much more often than every couple of weeks, unless you're using Infinity valves.

[harrisonreed]

Because they are infinite

[Matt K]

Yeah you should be oiling basically anythign more often than that. Remember, it isn't necessarily about the action per se --- the oil keeps the rotor from corroding. NAPBIRT recommends a few drops every time you play regardless of what type if I"m not mistaken.

[norbie2018]

My impressions came directly from the Edwards website.

[Burgerbob]

Well... I would take that with a grain of salt, sadly.

I've definitely seen/played my fair share of pretty trashed Edwards axials from lack of care.

[Matt K]

My impressions came directly from the Edwards website.

If one of these are what you are referring to:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170605234 ... e_care.php

https://www.edwards-instruments.com/tro ... intenance/

You should only have to disassemble your valve once every six months to a year if you oil the valve every two weeks through the slide receiver and main tuning slides. When oiling in this manner also put a drop of rotor (clear) oil on the valve spindle. Only take apart your valve if oiling it from the outside does not work as well as you would like. It is easy to take these valves apart but one must be careful to not: 1) drop the valves, 2) accidentally use F valve in Gb casing (on bass), and 3) drop oil onto your wife's new carpet. These procedures do require using oil that can stain your clothes or carpet so be careful.

I can see where the confusion would lie. It is easily interpreted as "no matter how much playing you do, you won't need to oil this more than once in any given two week period." What it basically means is, 'no matter how little you play the valve, it should be oiled every two weeks and then up to 2 times a year, but no less than one, the entire section should be disassembled to be thoroughly oiled'

The Shires FAQ is a little more clear about frequency:

We find that most brass players don’t oil their valves nearly often enough. Axial-flow valves in particular need to be oiled frequently for best action, about every day or two. Rotary valves should be oiled about twice a week. We recommend oiling your valves before you put the instrument in the case, particularly after long practice sessions or heavy performances or rehearsals. This practice will help prevent wear over the life of the instrument.

So in that sense, they aren't really all that much more maintinance than rotors. It's like every 1-2 days instead of 2-5 days. I tend to oil my rotors more frequently honestly. I wouldn't not choose a Thayer because of maintenance, personally.

[norbie2018]

I oil my Yamaha rotors once every 2-3 weeks. I also wouldn't not choose a Thayer because of the maintenance. I'm excited to try some and compare!

[elmsandr]

I don't agreee with axials being tough to maintain. Who is deciding that? I don't even play on axials, but I'd prefer to maintain them. Anyone who has ever reseated a bearing plate would know that axials, which literally come apart with a twist of a few screws and a ring, are way easier to take apart and clean.

It isn’t that the maintenance is tough, it is that it is required.

You can have a standard rotor for decades and barely oil it and never take it apart.

I would not do that with any of the axial I’ve ever owned. They need to be clean, they need to be oiled or they get sluggish. Sure, rotors can get sluggish, too. But a sluggish rotor works a lot better than a sluggish Thayer.

The reputation for maintenance needs is earned.
Andy

[harrisonreed]

Yikes. I must really be a maintenance freak, I guess.

[LIBrassCo]

I had a shires thayer horn for years. Horn played great, but the Gb valve was nothing but trouble. Ultimately had shires fix it under warranty, then sold it. Horn was a beast, but wasn't worth the issues i had. I think there's something to be said for a traditional rotor, or designs that start here. The Olsen rotors improve on this design, and are meant to last. From an installation perspective i hate them, but as a player i really like them.

My favorite valve these days are the CL2000 (Lindberg) valves. Conn improved them a little with better coatings, and the trick to get a better sound from them is even though the valve is .580, use .593 tubing. It gets rid of the complaints people have about their sound entirely. Adding a nickel gooseneck helps too. The throw cannot be beat, i actually play with the linkage/lever lengths to make the throw a hair longer, so its more comfortable to press, still something like 60% of the throw of a normal valve. As far as openness, i find it really similar to a thayer. Only downside is the funky tubing coming out the side of it, which takes a little getting used to.

[Steerpike]

How can a horn with any kind of valve be more open; more of an airhog than a straight horn?
Is it that we so rarely play a straight large bore or bass?
Is it that we like a bit of extra back pressure when playing really low?

[norbie2018]

How can a horn with any kind of valve be more open; more of an airhog than a straight horn?
Is it that we so rarely play a straight large bore or bass?
Is it that we like a bit of extra back pressure when playing really low?

Those are reasonable questions. I think we're sticking to axial valves vs rotors in this discussion. I don't think valved horns are more open then a straight horn, but there could be exceptions. It's the point that rotors seem to give more resistance than axial flow valves, and some players benefit from that resistance.

[Matt K]

Bear in mind that 'open' isn't an objective standard and that Thayer compression is not as high as rotors, which in turn isn't as high as straight (unless there's a hole in your neckpipe!). So the feeling of the air not goign through the tube may well be what some consider to be 'open'.

[Burgerbob]

Is it that we so rarely play a straight large bore or bass?

That's because those horns are, well, pretty useless in the grand scheme of things.

[norbie2018]

Is it that we so rarely play a straight large bore or bass?

That's because those horns are, well, pretty useless in the grand scheme of things.

Large bore bass? You're probably right. Large bore straight tenor? I believe they are used by players in professional settings, but I would state large bores with f attachments are far more common.

[norbie2018]

From the Edwards website (bolded for emphasis):

"The Edwards Axial Flow Valve is the most open trombone valve on the market. It gives the player the ability to blow freely in all registers as it maintains the same sound and feel on the Bb and F sides. Combine this with the valve’s open wrap design and the T350-E and T350-HB behave much like a straight tenor while giving up none of the versatility of a valved instrument."

[hyperbolica]

That's because those horns are, well, pretty useless in the grand scheme of things.

An 8h is a glorious thing. Really. Try one on lead or second in an orchestra. Or a Holton 156. Orchestral trombone players for over a century didn't use triggers. Straight large bores are far from useless.

[Matt K]

From the Edwards website (bolded for emphasis):

"The Edwards Axial Flow Valve is the most open trombone valve on the market. It gives the player the ability to blow freely in all registers as it maintains the same sound and feel on the Bb and F sides. Combine this with the valve’s open wrap design and the T350-E and T350-HB behave much like a straight tenor while giving up none of the versatility of a valved instrument."

If you check out the Shires Q&A on the TTF Archive we have here, you'll find references to Ben Griffin at the time indicating a spectrum between what was essentially 'articulate' and 'broad'. He basically played an open neckpipe right in the center, thayers on the 'broad' side and rotors on the 'articulate' side with Trubores being closer to the neckpipe than either but on the slightly broader side of the spectrum. As with any other part of the horn there are still tradeoffs, no matter what the marketing says. My experience reveals this to be pretty accurate for me but when you at the variability for the horn that it is going on as well as humans into the mix... all bets are off.

And beyond that, there is absolutely a psychological element as well. I hadn't played a straight horn in a few months as my main small bore is a 356 now, which happens to have an F attachment. Picking up a straight horn makes you feel more nimble, whether or not the horn is actually more nimble. Or is it the extra weight of the tubing? Or is it the way that it makes the horn balance? etc. etc. There's a good chunk that is placebo but I would be surprised if it was 100%... but is it closer to 10% or 90%? I'm not sure if we'll ever have a definitive answer.

[Doug Elliott]

How can a horn with any kind of valve be more open; more of an airhog than a straight horn?[/b]

Because Thayers typically leak some. A straight horn doesn't leak at all unless there's a bad solder joint or spit valve.

[Burgerbob]

I have one! And I love a good 8H. Doesn't change that the use case is very limited.

[hyperbolica]

I have one! And I love a good 8H. Doesn't change that the use case is very limited.

Your point of view is very narrow. The only place you couldn't play a straight 547 is essentially 3rd parts, and even most of those would be playable. I've got a pro buddy that all he plays is a straight 547 Yamaha, in orchestra, quartet, quintet, church jobs, even big band. You're discounting generations of music and musicians.

[Burgerbob]

I have one! And I love a good 8H. Doesn't change that the use case is very limited.

Your point of view is very narrow. The only place you couldn't play a straight 547 is essentially 3rd parts, and even most of those would be playable. I've got a pro buddy that all he plays is a straight 547 Yamaha, in orchestra, quartet, quintet, church jobs, even big band. You're discounting generations of music and musicians.

I'm sure he does.

I would still rather own one .547 with a valve (maybe an axial flow, heh) than deal with multiple of the same size.

[Matt K]

The valve is really an extreme convenience, particularly if you have short arms (as I do) or play in cramped quarters as I seem to often deal with quite often. Obviously it works well for other people, particularly if you have a consistent gig where you know both the location and guaranteed general tessitura of the parts in advance. But I personally gain no benefit by not having the valve so it is truly an absolute advantage for myself.

If I *really* want a more nimble horn, I just play something smaller, which in my case is a YSL356 or 646 which incidentally both have F attachments as well. That isn't discounting that people have played on straight horns in the past; it's merely diverging from their standard with the myriad new options that have emerged in the last few years in particular. Afterall, there has been a lot of music written in the last 10,20,30, etc. years. For example, I'm in a big band on 3rd bone where we play some pretty progressive stuff that often descends into the F attachment range or has disjunct sections that are greatly aided by the F attachment. Would be even better with a G attachment but that's an entirely different can of worms.

[harrisonreed]

Straight tenors are the reason most of Europe was using valve trombones from the mid to late 19th century. Just saying.

The idea that rejecting valves and sticking to straight tenor is the one true way and historically informed is ... not historically informed. A great portion of mid to late 19th century assumed 3 tenor-bass trombones (ie, with F attachment), and increasingly as the century went on the composer assumed that valve bones would be used.

So little was the slide used that the Mozart solo was assumed to be unplayable even as late as the 1910s and was often given to the bassoon or horn. Think about that for a second!

[Specialk3700]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't use a straight large bore but, almost no one wants too.

[norbie2018]

Straight tenors are the reason most of Europe was using valve trombones from tge mid to late 19th century. Just saying.

Though I cannot prove it, my guess is that slides of the time period were not very good, necessitating the use if valved instruments.

[norbie2018]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't use a straight large bore but, almost no one wants too.

That's not a reasonable statement. There are those playing at the professional level using straight large bores. Perhaps not exclusively, but they are used.

[harrisonreed]

Though I cannot prove it, my guess is that slides of the time period were not very good, necessitating the use if valved instruments.

You know everything was bad about them, including whatever slide lube they used. Clearly, it was possible to have a good slide based on music from the 18th century and even earlier, like Castellos music. But as soon as valves and rotors became available, there was a rush to get either a f attachment or a 3 valve trombone. For example, Dvorak was writing for an all valve trombone section with the exception of perhaps his first symphony. It is highly likely that Brahms 2 and Bruckner 4 premiered with valve trombones.

The "no valve ever unless on 3rd" stance is not very "trombone player" in its approach.

[GBP]

I don't agreee with axials being tough to maintain. Who is deciding that? I don't even play on axials, but I'd prefer to maintain them. Anyone who has ever reseated a bearing plate would know that axials, which literally come apart with a twist of a few screws and a ring, are way easier to take apart and clean.

It is the bearings that make Thayer valves a pain. Due to the design, it needs to be looked at every couple years because they slowly lose compression. That and the amount of oiling that Thayers require compared to rotors can be a put off for some.

[bbocaner]

How can a horn with any kind of valve be more open; more of an airhog than a straight horn?

I put this down to, at least partially, the fact that an instrument with an axial flow valve necessitates a shorter gooseneck, especially on a independent bass. More cylindrical tubing, less tapered tubing in that area of the instrument.

[hyperbolica]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't use a straight large bore but, almost no one wants too.

Well, I play with people who use straight horns, and large bores among them. Not everybody, not all the time (except that one fellow who only has a straight large bore), but far from no one. And if you look at the last 70 years of trombone playing, I'll bet you find a lot of that. I'll bet if you keep your eyes open, you might see things you don't expect. If you have a particular bias, you might tend to not see what you aren't looking for.

For example, around here, I can't remember the last tenor I saw with an axial. I don't have any illusions that it's like that everywhere, but it's like that here.

[norbie2018]

Another related question: can a person decide that an axial valve trombone (or any trombone for that matter) is right for them after a 2-3 hour trial?

[Matt K]

Another related question: can a person decide that an axial valve trombone (or any trombone for that matter) is right for them after a 2-3 hour trial?

As you discovered, the parenthetical here is the real question. There is a honeymoon period for any horn where our perceptions are slightly tainted towards the new. However, if you can get a certain % better sound out of a new horn at an acceptable level of effort then in my experience it's worth keeping that horn. But to further complicate issues... the mouthpiece might not be right for the horn. To use an example in my case... I was playing on an XT104N/G/G8 for quite some time on a Bach 42. I eventually acquired the core of the horn I have now, which is a Shires that is sort of setup like a Conn 88. The colors were a lot easier for me to utilize on that horn but it took a little more effort than the 42. After practicing on it for awhile I eventually settled on the XT104N/E/E8 (then later I shifted things again so on and so forth).

But then there are more dimensions to this. Do you do your playing primarily in the room like the one you tried the horn in for 2-3 hours? Probably not, but possibly. For example, if you have a full time job playing in a particular hall, it probably behooves you to hyper optimize for that hall, as the Alessi horn did or as Jay Friedman did with his 5042 setup. You could play an array of music in that hall on it and see if it satisfies your tastes. If not, does it sound good in a variety of ambiances (small rooms, big rooms, carpeted rooms, etc.)? Do you need it to sound good in a wide variety of contexts? Then sound itself has many characteristics... do you like the way one blooms (gets edgier at louder dynamics and darker at softer dynamics) or do you want something that is very consistent across all dynamic registers? What about a horn that is articulate?

There are so many variables that the only way to evaluate a horn is to think about all of the possible things that you want it to be able to do and then determine how many things you are willing to compromise on to get a horn that might be able to satisfy all of those dimensions or not. This gets to the discussion that is currently ongoing. For a lot of players, particularly younger players, it seems that the total array of possible things they might play necessitates a valve and for them, the compromise (if there is one for them) of a straight horn isn't worth the compromise of not having the facility or range that they provide.

To speak specifically of your question though, let's say you try a Thayer horn and it satisfies all of the possible playing that you'll want to do. There is one added element you'll have to think of and that is if you have the discipline or desire to maintain it more than you would a straight horn or a rotary horn. As mentioned, it isn't exactly onerous... but I also know people who seldom oil their rotor for one reason or another. Technically, it'll still function with little oil for a long time... it still isn't good for it but it'll work for awhile. With thayers, as discussed above, you're going to have to oil it more often than that. For some players that's totally fine. But if you aren't dilligent about upkeep, it's probably going to preclude it from being a good choice.