Buying Trombone Blind

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trombinstharry
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Buying Trombone Blind

Post by trombinstharry »

Good evening all, I am a highschool bass trombonist in the market for a bass trombone. Currently I play on my school's old Duo Gravis. (Semi) Locally (it would be over a 4 hour drive to the horn) there is a Jupiter JSL 740RL being sold for $1300. I think the Duo Gravis is an alright horn, but I don't particularly like the double thumb levers, the 2nd valve putting the horn into E, and the slide isn't ideal. I do think I want to major in something with music for college, and it's possible I could end up using the Jupiter horn for such. What should I do? Wait for something like a Bach to show up for cheap on eBay, or go for the Jupiter?
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by timbone »

Personally, going from a Duo Gravis to a J would be a downgrade. I'd look into seeing if the band director would be interested in converting it to a modified Haynor style grip. Remember- plenty of pros played that horn in its original setup. The brass from that era will be superior to a lot of horns today also.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by LIBrassCo »

timbone wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:17 am Personally, going from a Duo Gravis to a J would be a downgrade. I'd look into seeing if the band director would be interested in converting it to a modified Haynor style grip. Remember- plenty of pros played that horn in its original setup. The brass from that era will be superior to a lot of horns today also.
While some people state the brass is "superior" or "different" from vintage horns, please keep in mind there is absolutely Zero evidence of this, and thus far is speculative. Some studies quantifying the elemental composition of brass from different periods has been done, with inconclusive results (may even support there is no difference at all.) That being said, there are some vintage horns which are highly sought, such as corporation era bachs, just name on specifically. In your position, i would not let this have any effect on my horn selection.

As for as what direction you should go, it would be very helpful if you included your budget. Also, be prepared for a ton of opinion, and highly subjective facts regarding horn suggestions. You will probably hear everything from it's trash to a national treasure, all about the same horn. In most cases, they are all true. Because we are all different, what works for each player is not the same either. My best suggestion is don't ask us, go to whatever is the closest brick and mortor location that stocks a large supply of different bass trombones and try them all. What you play something that works for you, it will be obvious.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by Matt K »

While some people state the brass is "superior" or "different" from vintage horns, please keep in mind there is absolutely Zero evidence of this, and thus far is speculative. Some studies quantifying the elemental composition of brass from different periods has been done, with inconclusive results (may even support there is no difference at all.) That being said, there are some vintage horns which are highly sought, such as corporation era bachs, just name on specifically. In your position, i would not let this have any effect on my horn selection.
Actually, our very own BGuttman did some tests a few years ago that are unfortunately lost as far as I can tell on the TTF! Bruce, perhaps you can chime in if you remember what you found Bruce but memory serving, we couldn't find any difference between 'old' and 'new' brass. In other words, the evidence is actually that there is no difference between the two between two specimens of the same alloy (e.g. a Bach 42 yellow bell will be basically the same as one today but will obviously be different than a 'gold' brass bell).

As far as the OP's question; the Jupiter actually are pretty good horns. I've known a few people who have had issues with the linkages and the rotors binding and whatnot which you might not find on a more expensive horn but the difference is well worth it if that's all that goes wrong with it and you end up replacing them. Parts are readily available etc. etc.

You might want to consider broadening your search; there are a lot of good horns out there afterall and with a little patience you can get something for a similar price but $1300 is lower than you'll probably be able to get a good independent horn for. In other words, you might have to spend $300-600 at some point down the road maybe. And you can get a 'pro' horn for $2k rather easily with slightly more patience. So your total cost could be similar. Possibly less if you are patient. However, none of what I said is guaranteed.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by BGuttman »

When I was working at the analytical lab I had access to an X-Ray Fluorrescence scanner. I tested out a bunch of mouthpieces (sent by Doug Elliott and DJ Kennedy) and some brass tubes (sent either by Benn Hansen or Eric Edwards; I don't remember which). I could find trace elements down to tenths of a percent. I didn't find old mouthpieces or tubes to be measurably different to newer mouthpieces or tubes. I still have the data and could probably republish it here if I figure out where I stashed it.

To the OP: Looks like you have the original Duo Gravis setup, which was a dependent in Bb/F/E. There are extra tuning slides to make the dependent valve Eb or D but finding them may be problematic.

You may want to look for a Wessex Tubas bass, which is a copy of the King 7B made in China but also QC'd by Wessex so you don't have to worry about getting "Chinese Junk." The Jupiter is probably not bad but you should be able to find a good bass in your price point if you are patient. Look especially for the Benge 290, which usually goes for low prices since it has been discontinued and it lacks name recognition. You also may be able to find a Yamaha 612 (dependent) or 613 (independent). King 7B and 8B trombones also show up from time to time at good prices.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by ghmerrill »

LIBrassCo wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:45 am My best suggestion is don't ask us, go to whatever is the closest brick and mortor location that stocks a large supply of different bass trombones and try them all.
This is good advice -- particularly for a professional or an advanced student who is seriously looking at a significant purchase. But for a high school student not clear on what he actually wants in a bass trombone and with little experience, it may not be so reasonable. It's just hard to find such places nowadays, and there's significant investment of time and effort (and some money) in getting to one, spending time trying the horns, and then getting back home.

In my own case, for example, I think the closest place I'd want to go for something like this is Baltimore Brass -- which is at least a 6 hour drive. This means at least a two-day excursion up and back, and possibly three days depending on some factors. And if I were going to go that far, I'd probably bite the bullet and go up to Dillon as well. But I'd only do that if I were REALLY serious about what I was looking for and ready to pull the trigger on a purchase at that point.

Even somewhere like Tuba Exchange (which is about a 30 minute trip for me) can't be remotely depended on to have bass trombones to try. Several years ago when I was looking around, I went up there to try one of the John Packer bass trombones. I'd checked with Packer to see where I might try their bass trombones around my area and they assured me that TE had them. So I zipped up to Durham, and TE had NO bass trombones and only a couple of Packer tenor trombones on site. That's just an example of the current state of brick and mortar brass instrument availability.

So what's a high school student to do if he's not interested in spending a couple or three days of time/effort/money in trying horns?

One alternative (and this also depends on where you are and what the music scene is around there) is to see if you can find people in the area who have different instruments they'd be willing to let you try out and play on for a half hour or so. I think many would be happy to do this -- especially for a student. Possible sources are (1) College or other nearby high school music departments; (2) Community bands; (3) Nearby "professionals" (where often these are people who play part-time in party and wedding bands). The possibilities for such opportunities are often richer than you might suppose, and I think that everyone I know would be very happy to invite a serious high school student over to try an instrument for at least an hour or so.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by hyperbolica »

If you don't go and physically test a bunch of actual trombones, you'll get caught up in this loop of buying a horn from a word description of it, having it delivered to you, being disappointed in some aspect of it, selling it, and buying another horn, lather, rinse, repeat. I'm trying hard to cure this affliction in myself. Go test a bunch of horns, fall in love with one, buy it, and play it. Buying without trying is just an invitation for disappointment. Unless you're a collector.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by Burgerbob »

Given those two options, I would stick with the Duo Gravis for now. The 740 is a pretty meh instrument all around.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by Bach42t »

I agree, buying a trombone blind is probably not a good idea, however, I have done it many times albeit with mixed results. In the case of some special models, you may have zero choice to test many options. For example, Conn 88HSGX's, (which I am looking at buying one this year) are rare as hen's teeth on the used market and special order new, usually with the stipulation of "all sales final". Horns that are of the garden variety, may still be difficult to find for most people not around a major metropolitan area to test. I would say, in most case, it is good to spend the extra time and money to test out as many as possible, where available.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by Matt K »

There's a used Getzen 1052 for sale on one of the facebook groups for like $1800. THat's a superb price for the instrument if you can swing a few hundred more.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by harrisonreed »

It is worth the ticket to ATW or ITG (if it's happening near you) to test horns. However, in high school, it's not really such a big deal unless you're way ahead of the bell curve.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by BillO »

Burgerbob wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:54 pm Given those two options, I would stick with the Duo Gravis for now. The 740 is a pretty meh instrument all around.
I'd have to agree with Burgerbob here. In my search for a bass the Jupiter 740 was one I spent some time on. I just could not get it to behave for me. I did however end up buying a Jupiter XO 1240 - but they are very different fish. I'd put the 1240 up against any non-custom pro bass on the market, but not the 740. It's well built and the finish is excellent, but it just does not play all that great.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by BrassedOn »

Good advice. I’m biased toward taking a well playing King and upgrading the mechanism and maybe having a longer second trigger slide made. IDK if a factor but maybe better resale down the road. I play a Getzen 1062, and King otherwise. and do more jazz than symphonic. But if buying today and considering budget I’d consider the XO and Benge suggested above.

Playing blind is one thing, but playing deaf is another. Play the horns, take a more experienced player with you. A trip to a big brass trombone shop rather than conference can get you more time in a horn and a better atmosphere. Tubists call the conference expo “the elephant room” for obvious reasons, it can be near impossible to get a sense for a horn with that noise and competition for playing time. Record yourself and listen to playback, because you’ll hear more//less differences from the other side of the horn.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by timbone »

Contrary to what Mr long island brass dealer says, the brass is superior and for the sake of comparison, compare autos from the 70's era to autos of today. Real metal whereas today- plastic where metal was. Ever close a door on a Bonneville? Do you pay attention to some of those new wrecks you see being hauled on tow trucks today? Looks like foil sometimes. So I grew up playing Bundy, Olds, Getzen. My evidence comes from fifty years of playing trombone, 45 professionally. I have eleven trombones and except for a 1999 Edwards, nothing is newer than 1970. I'm a pretty good judge of metal and instruments in general working in the industry (design and production). I will tell you the German brass is almost on a par with metal from the 70's. Just my two cents. My recommendation would be to buy a Getzen, best bang or the buck.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by 2bobone »

OK --- Time for an Ol' Geezer to toss in his 2 cents ! I still own my King Duo Gravis "Silversonic" from the 70's and repeat that I could have played my entire symphony orchestra career on just that horn alone. It is one of the few instruments out there that can be played as "BIG" as you want and as "small" as you want with no loss of character. Spend your own birthday present money on having it refurbished at a brass repair shop -- you'll never regret it eventhough it is owned by your school. Regarding the trigger setup : I wish all of my horns had the King "stacked" triggers. It's one of the few setups where you can support the weight of the horn on your trigger thumb by using the famous King curved bell brace. If your hand doesn't fit, fashion a pad of rubber tubing around the brace to build it up so that it will fit your hand. If the slide is not physically damaged, a seriously thorough cleaning will achieve one of the best slide actions you'll ever experience. Between the slide cleaning and a careful check that your valves are properly aligned [use a boroscope] you'll have a stellar instrument to get you to the next stage.
If you decide not to go my suggested route, I would highly recommend looking for a Benge 290. It was my choice to use for performances of the Ladermann "Concerto for 5 winds & Orchestra" . It wasn't a Duo Gravis, but it was a great horn and as mentioned in other posts, it is more affordable because it wasn't on the market long enough to develop a following. Good luck in your quest !
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by Burgerbob »

timbone wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:33 pm Contrary to what Mr long island brass dealer says, the brass is superior and for the sake of comparison, compare autos from the 70's era to autos of today. Real metal whereas today- plastic where metal was. Ever close a door on a Bonneville? Do you pay attention to some of those new wrecks you see being hauled on tow trucks today? Looks like foil sometimes. So I grew up playing Bundy, Olds, Getzen. My evidence comes from fifty years of playing trombone, 45 professionally. I have eleven trombones and except for a 1999 Edwards, nothing is newer than 1970. I'm a pretty good judge of metal and instruments in general working in the industry (design and production). I will tell you the German brass is almost on a par with metal from the 70's. Just my two cents. My recommendation would be to buy a Getzen, best bang or the buck.
Not a great analogy. Cars are built better today than they ever have been, not to mention they are safer, faster, more efficient, and more comfortable. Do you want a car that looks good after a wreck, or one you can walk away from afterwards?

Just because something is thick and solid doesn't make it better in every way.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by Bach42t »

I have yet to see any newer trombones or at least very few from late 90's to today with the natural destruction to the horn and it's value - that which we know as red rot. To sort of revert back to the car analogy my dad had an early 1980s Datsun-Nissan pick up truck bought new. In less than 10 years of Northwest Florida weather (which does not typically lend itself to rust), it had rust all over the body and even the floor boards. On another note, I have taken a tour of Getzen factory and find it to be a very interesting place, however, my question there was never answered and has never been answered by anyone in the industry. Are today's brass instruments made from recycled brass? Does it even matter if that is the case? I'm curious though. Either way, it did not sway me - I bought a Getzen bass and have no issues.

Whether foreign brass is better than domestic may not be the superior trade-off in comparisons between two near-peer instruments made today. It should be more along the lines of service and support. As an example, speaking to U.S. dealers I found that most foreign makers do not possess the same competitive supply chain and distribution models that afford large domestic U.S. makes. As probably not a very good example, that Chinese or German brass knuckle replacement part may take a very long time to get, if ever available at all. So, why risk it - if servicing is going to be problematic. This is not my opinion, this is from a dealer's perspective when I was trying to reason between fairly identical tenor models with Hagmann's by two different makers, one U.S. and one foreign. I had similar curiosity as well about the quality of the brass at the same time.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by Doubler »

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:32 pm
timbone wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:33 pm Contrary to what Mr long island brass dealer says, the brass is superior and for the sake of comparison, compare autos from the 70's era to autos of today. Real metal whereas today- plastic where metal was. Ever close a door on a Bonneville? Do you pay attention to some of those new wrecks you see being hauled on tow trucks today? Looks like foil sometimes. So I grew up playing Bundy, Olds, Getzen. My evidence comes from fifty years of playing trombone, 45 professionally. I have eleven trombones and except for a 1999 Edwards, nothing is newer than 1970. I'm a pretty good judge of metal and instruments in general working in the industry (design and production). I will tell you the German brass is almost on a par with metal from the 70's. Just my two cents. My recommendation would be to buy a Getzen, best bang or the buck.
Not a great analogy. Cars are built better today than they ever have been, not to mention they are safer, faster, more efficient, and more comfortable. Do you want a car that looks good after a wreck, or one you can walk away from afterwards?

Just because something is thick and solid doesn't make it better in every way.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by timbone »

Not a great analogy. Cars are built better today than they ever have been, not to mention they are safer, faster, more efficient, and more comfortable. Do you want a car that looks good after a wreck, or one you can walk away from afterwards?

Just because something is thick and solid doesn't make it better in every way.


Here we are talking about metal, not to be confused with car technology, faster, comfort. efficient, etc. What car looks good after a wreck?
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by Matt K »

timbone wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 7:34 am Not a great analogy. Cars are built better today than they ever have been, not to mention they are safer, faster, more efficient, and more comfortable. Do you want a car that looks good after a wreck, or one you can walk away from afterwards?

Just because something is thick and solid doesn't make it better in every way.


Here we are talking about metal, not to be confused with car technology, faster, comfort. efficient, etc. What car looks good after a wreck?
What Aidan is saying is directly in response to your statement:
Contrary to what Mr long island brass dealer says, the brass is superior and for the sake of comparison, compare autos from the 70's era to autos of today. Real metal whereas today- plastic where metal was. Ever close a door on a Bonneville? Do you pay attention to some of those new wrecks you see being hauled on tow trucks today? Looks like foil sometimes.
They are intentionally using different materials such as "plastic where metal was" for myriad reasons, including the ones Aidan mentioned. Cars that look like tin foil after a wreck bend to absorb the shock of the damage. It is much better to have a car break than you, afterall. And the use of these materials cannot be separated from other aspects of the car. It isn't that the materials themselves have degraded over time.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by LIBrassCo »

timbone wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:33 pm Contrary to what Mr long island brass dealer says, the brass is superior and for the sake of comparison, compare autos from the 70's era to autos of today. Real metal whereas today- plastic where metal was. Ever close a door on a Bonneville? Do you pay attention to some of those new wrecks you see being hauled on tow trucks today? Looks like foil sometimes. So I grew up playing Bundy, Olds, Getzen. My evidence comes from fifty years of playing trombone, 45 professionally. I have eleven trombones and except for a 1999 Edwards, nothing is newer than 1970. I'm a pretty good judge of metal and instruments in general working in the industry (design and production). I will tell you the German brass is almost on a par with metal from the 70's. Just my two cents. My recommendation would be to buy a Getzen, best bang or the buck.
Wow i totally missed this! :lol: :lol: :lol: not worth a response. Whatever you say.
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Re: Buying Trombone Blind

Post by hyperbolica »

Don't you guys ever get tired of this posturing? You're all way off topic. Geez.

Might I suggest that those on either side of [this list of perpetual issues] go to the profiles of those you disagree with and click the Add Foe link. That way their posts will be minimized, and you won't see them. It's just reflexive bickering and can happen on any topic, with mostly the same people involved. Please do us all a favor.
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