Earl Williams Model 10

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Just realized that Leanit’s horn and the one attached by bellend are sibling 10s!

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

I bought one of Drew’s Williams horns almost two years ago, a model 7.

I love the instrument. I have been curious because the horn has a serial # indicating it was made by Earl, but has the Nickel slide crook characteristic of Bob’s horns.

While it also has the F Attachment, it doesn’t have the “J bend” tuning mechanism. Has a normal tuning slide with one Williams brace attached.

I wonder if it started its life as an earl made Burbank 6, and later on it was converted to a trigger horn and had the nickel crook added? There are no cosmetic signs of the modifications, it looks very clean and well done.

Also nickel doesn’t oxidize as fast as yellow brass but the crook definitely looks “newer” than the outer slide tubes which have a bit of corrosion but still perform wonderfully.

Don’t know if we will ever know, but these horns are works of art and decades ahead of their time! Would love to try a model 10 one day!

Success! I was able to find my old photos I took of my Bob 7! This one definitely had a J bend.

[Leanit]

There are probably fewer rules to these prototype/small-batch horns than we expect. Anything is possible.

[Leanit]

Just realized that Leanit’s horn and the one attached by bellend are sibling 10s!

Indeed. Mine is 1146.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

There are probably fewer rules to these prototype/small-batch horns than we expect. Anything is possible.

I agree because all the 10s seem to vary with some different specs.

Just realized that Leanit’s horn and the one attached by bellend are sibling 10s!

Indeed. Mine is 1146.

You know, I’m curious if Earl built these 10s sequentially or really closely together. Yours is 1146, the other is 1145, and I just recently got 1139. The serials are so close together that it makes you wonder.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Recently acquired this beauty from Noah. All original except for the added thumbring which actually helps with the ergonomics with this horn. This one has a 9” bell whereas the other has a 9 1/4”.

[Leanit]

And mine is 9.5" in bell diameter. What an eclectic little production.

[mrdeacon]

Hawaiiguy, first off your trombone collection just keeps getting more ridiculous! I'm jealous!

Second off... Does this second 10 also have the fatter bell throat?

[Leanit]

Hawaiiguy, first off your trombone collection just keeps getting more ridiculous! I'm jealous!

Second only to the shop towel collection!

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Hawaiiguy, first off your trombone collection just keeps getting more ridiculous! I'm jealous!

Second off... Does this second 10 also have the fatter bell throat?

Yes, this 10 definitely has the large throat. The two 10s look identical to the naked eye in regards to throat size.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Hawaiiguy, first off your trombone collection just keeps getting more ridiculous! I'm jealous!

Second only to the shop towel collection!

Hahaha yeah I noticed them in the background of the photos and moved them shortly after to take photos of the pair together.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

[mrdeacon]

Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

Take this from someone who just modified their Minick bass with a similar J bend setup. I would not touch the Williams. Get the drop in valve made if you need a second valve.

My reasoning is actually not because you're modifying the Williams, I'm ok with that. It's actually the J bend design that is a pain to work with.

Because of the lack of bracing inherent in the design, it makes putting the horn together a nightmare for your tech. I'm sure Minick and Williams both created specific jigs to put these J bend horns together. Your tech has to essentially freeball putting everything together and there are only so many places you can brace the horn once it's fully put together. Super easy to have tension sneak into the horn when you're freeballing it like that.

You'd also have to find a second valve to use and decide if you want to use "new" valves, rotax, Olsen ect., or another Conn or Holton rotor. Depending on your choice, especially if you decide to use a close tolerance valve like the Olsens, a number of problems can crop up because of the J bend. I really like the Olsens but they were difficult to get working right on my horn because of the J bend design.

At some point, I'm going to put together a post on my experiences with modifying my Minick. Again, I don't think you would have any regrets modifying your Williams to have a second fixed valve but it's 100% not as simple as just slapping a new valve in the horn. I learned that the hard way!

[elmsandr]

Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

I forget which one of yours is which, but making/getting a drop in valve for the one with the Holton valve section would probably be a more straightforward task.

I would not alter the one with the pigtail. I would consider adding a drop in valve there, but making something that worked aesthetically there would be a little more challenging. If you are looking for a permanent mod, I think going for a nice dependent set on that one with the Holton section could be a mod that would require very little, if any permanent modification to the horn.

Cheers,
Andy

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

Take this from someone who just modified their Minick bass with a similar J bend setup. I would not touch the Williams. Get the drop in valve made if you need a second valve.

My reasoning is actually not because you're modifying the Williams, I'm ok with that. It's actually the J bend design that is a pain to work with.

Because of the lack of bracing inherent in the design, it makes putting the horn together a nightmare for your tech. I'm sure Minick and Williams both created specific jigs to put these J bend horns together. Your tech has to essentially freeball putting everything together and there are only so many places you can brace the horn once it's fully put together. Super easy to have tension sneak into the horn when you're freeballing it like that.

You'd also have to find a second valve to use and decide if you want to use "new" valves, rotax, Olsen ect., or another Conn or Holton rotor. Depending on your choice, especially if you decide to use a close tolerance valve like the Olsens, a number of problems can crop up because of the J bend. I really like the Olsens but they were difficult to get working right on my horn because of the J bend design.

At some point, I'm going to put together a post on my experiences with modifying my Minick. Again, I don't think you would have any regrets modifying your Williams to have a second fixed valve but it's 100% not as simple as just slapping a new valve in the horn. I learned that the hard way!

Good insight. I’m still on the fence as to what I’m going to do, but it seems like the majority is leaning towards having a drop in valve made for it. I never thought about how troublesome it would be due to the J bend design, but I can see how that would be a problem.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

I forget which one of yours is which, but making/getting a drop in valve for the one with the Holton valve section would probably be a more straightforward task.

I would not alter the one with the pigtail. I would consider adding a drop in valve there, but making something that worked aesthetically there would be a little more challenging. If you are looking for a permanent mod, I think going for a nice dependent set on that one with the Holton section could be a mod that would require very little, if any permanent modification to the horn.

Cheers,
Andy

Yes, I don’t plan on touching the pigtail one since it’s basically all original. I am definitely leaning towards a drop in valve as I wouldn’t always need the additional valve. I figured since the DeKarske horn has already had work done to it that it would be the best candidate for the project.

[FOSSIL]

Contemplating on doing a double valve/trigger setup on my Williams 10 that used to belong to Karl DeKarske. Wondering if I should opt for a drop-in second valve or have a second valve added to the existing setup. If I had the money I’d buy the 10 for sale over at Horn Stash, but it’s just too much. Any recommendations from the Williams folk?

Take this from someone who just modified their Minick bass with a similar J bend setup. I would not touch the Williams. Get the drop in valve made if you need a second valve.

My reasoning is actually not because you're modifying the Williams, I'm ok with that. It's actually the J bend design that is a pain to work with.

Because of the lack of bracing inherent in the design, it makes putting the horn together a nightmare for your tech. I'm sure Minick and Williams both created specific jigs to put these J bend horns together. Your tech has to essentially freeball putting everything together and there are only so many places you can brace the horn once it's fully put together. Super easy to have tension sneak into the horn when you're freeballing it like that.

You'd also have to find a second valve to use and decide if you want to use "new" valves, rotax, Olsen ect., or another Conn or Holton rotor. Depending on your choice, especially if you decide to use a close tolerance valve like the Olsens, a number of problems can crop up because of the J bend. I really like the Olsens but they were difficult to get working right on my horn because of the J bend design.

At some point, I'm going to put together a post on my experiences with modifying my Minick. Again, I don't think you would have any regrets modifying your Williams to have a second fixed valve but it's 100% not as simple as just slapping a new valve in the horn. I learned that the hard way!

I'm sorry, but there is nothing intrinsically harder about building a TIS bell section..... actually, I would say, having built up both, the TIS section is easier. Building 'freehand' is LESS likely to result in tension in the build, unless the builder decides for some strange reason to force parts together. Bracing is a black art for sure, but often less is more in that department.
Since many people think that the Williams 10 in question has a Holton valve, a Holton slot-in would be perfect and easy to fit.

Chris

[mrdeacon]

I'm sorry, but there is nothing intrinsically harder about building a TIS bell section..... actually, I would say, having built up both, the TIS section is easier. Building 'freehand' is LESS likely to result in tension in the build, unless the builder decides for some strange reason to force parts together. Bracing is a black art for sure, but often less is more in that department.

Thanks for your post Chris! I agree with you and think I could have been a little specific with my post. When I said J bend I meant a movable J bend tuning slide like on my horn and the Williams 10.

The specific issue we ran into was the alignment between the female tuning receiver part of the J bend and the male tuning bit extending out of the rotor were ever so slightly off. So visually it looked fine and the tuning slide moved freely but that extra small bit of tension caused issues with binding on the Olsen rotors. Took some trouble shooting to figure out what was going on but it was a quick to fix once we did. This problem of course never would have happened with a standard tuning slide or a fixed J bend.

I don't think it's impossible to put together a horn with a movable J bend but it's for sure finicky to put together.

My horn was also super picky about bracing. We finally figured out the best place for them but it took a couple of tries to get there.

[FOSSIL]

I'm sorry, but there is nothing intrinsically harder about building a TIS bell section..... actually, I would say, having built up both, the TIS section is easier. Building 'freehand' is LESS likely to result in tension in the build, unless the builder decides for some strange reason to force parts together. Bracing is a black art for sure, but often less is more in that department.

Thanks for your post Chris! I agree with you and think I could have been a little specific with my post. When I said J bend I meant a movable J bend tuning slide like on my horn and the Williams 10.

The specific issue we ran into was the alignment between the female tuning receiver part of the J bend and the male tuning bit extending out of the rotor were ever so slightly off. So visually it looked fine and the tuning slide moved freely but that extra small bit of tension caused issues with binding on the Olsen rotors. Took some trouble shooting to figure out what was going on but it was a quick to fix once we did. This problem of course never would have happened with a standard tuning slide or a fixed J bend.

I don't think it's impossible to put together a horn with a movable J bend but it's for sure finicky to put together.

My horn was also super picky about bracing. We finally figured out the best place for them but it took a couple of tries to get there.

A couple of tries to get the best out of bracing is very good going... I can spend ages messing with bracing. Thanks for the clarification.... on that basis I would agree that a moveable J type tuning slide is very much the hardest type to set up, especially if the new valves take up more or less space on the main instrument than the original valves. Any change in that area will totally change the way the instrument plays. Risky world.

Chris

[pjanda1]

A double dependent Williams 10 just popped up on Ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/325810663991 A mere $20k!

I don't know the seller. I live 20 miles away and I'd go check out his tenors (8H and NY 34B listed) if the prices on those weren't also ... a little aggressive.

I thought folks might be interested to see this one.

Paul

[Burgerbob]

Reminds me of a certain Williams model 4 that was for sale here...

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

I suspect that it’s this one.

[JohnL]

Twenty thousand (US) dollars?

Excuse me...

TWENTY

THOUSAND

DOLLARS!?

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Seems to not have the spare slide as well anymore.

[pjanda1]

I thought it was funny because I think there is a thread referencing a Williams 10 where DE (jokingly) mentions a price of $125k. Maybe the seller saw that! (Or maybe I'm misremembering).

It'd be interesting if these folks are trying to be flippers. I saw the eclectic mix of nice stuff and assumed it was just an attempt to liquidate a collection that had been painstakingly assembled by someone who doesn't know how to price stuff. There are easier ways to make a buck than flipping trombones.

Paul

[Posaunus]

Apparently Jesus Torres learned the "value" of this "rare" trombone, even though he had to ask the world what it was that he had!

Note his eBay listing:
For parts or not working
“The valves and slides move freely and the hand slide action is mostly smooth(approximately 8.5 out of 10..."

From the photos, it's apparent that there was once also a second slide. Is that item also available (separately) "for parts or not working"?

The photos reveal a lot about this instrument's condition. (Hardly pristine!)

And only $300 shipping! No returns.

Remember what P. T. Barnum (allegedly) said! [There's a sucker ...]

[JohnL]

Apparently Jesus Torres learned the "value" of this "rare" trombone, even though he had to ask the world what it was that he had!

I don't think Jesus Torres is the person selling it on eBay. The Trombone Marketplace listing indicates that the instrument is located in Whittier, California (in what looks like someone's garage or maybe a storage locker), while the current seller on eBay is listed as being located in Erie, Colorado.

Drew, how old is that screenshot?

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Apparently Jesus Torres learned the "value" of this "rare" trombone, even though he had to ask the world what it was that he had!

I don't think Jesus Torres is the person selling it on eBay. The Trombone Marketplace listing indicates that the instrument is located in Whittier, California (in what looks like someone's garage or maybe a storage locker), while the current seller on eBay is listed as being located in Erie, Colorado.

Drew, how old is that screenshot?

Yeah, I caught the different locations as well between Jesus’ post and where the eBay seller is based.

John, the screenshot was taken on June 27th of this year, so roughly 2 1/2 months ago.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Messaged with the eBay seller a bit and the spare slide that was originally with this horn belongs to a Williams 4. He measured the tubes at .491” which is why it is no longer included with this bass.

[meine]

Messaged him too. He‘s quite convinced to get the money he‘s asking

[JohnL]

Messaged him too. He‘s quite convinced to get the money he‘s asking

I hope they're really patient. It could take quite while.

[Bach5G]

Buy low, sell high.

[JohnL]

Buy low, sell high.

So we don't have the right to comment on the price the seller is asking?

[Burgerbob]

Buy low, sell high.

Yes, but not buy low, hold out for someone to pay a stupid price for years and then eventually lower it.

[Bach5G]

Buy low, sell high.

So we don't have the right to comment on the price the seller is asking?

Of course you do. Who said otherwise? Well, maybe your mom who likely said if you can’t say anything nice…

Yes, but not buy low, hold out for someone to pay a stupid price for years and then eventually lower it.
[/quote]

I think the seller is free to conduct the sale as he wishes.

[Burgerbob]

I think the seller is free to conduct the sale as he wishes.

In order to call it a sale... first you have to sell!