Is a medium bore right for me?

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RConrad
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Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by RConrad »

Hello everyone, I'll be in the market soon for a used trombone finally. Initially I had expected to either get myself a bass or a large bore tenor but I've found myself playing 3rd for my university's jazz ensemble and stepping in for pep band whenever needed in addition to currently playing bass for the symphonic band (the director has indicated that he'd like to move me to a higher part though). Due to this I've been spending a lot of time using my old Bach student horn which was all I needed when I was in high school 17 years ago but isn't cutting anymore. As I only have the room for one more trombone and I'm limited to $1000 I'm uncertain what I should be looking at as the options seem to run the full gambit. Considering that I'm playing jazz, pop/rock and symphonic music my intuition was to look for something like a Bach 36 but I was wondering if someone may have another suggestion that may work.

Just to be clear I'm not required to have any specific horn or sound. The expectation is that I blend my sound with the rest of the section. I also tend to play the lower parts and don't expect to play first at any point for the jazz ensemble, I'm not a music major so I tend to play whatever the music majors don't. Let me know what you think and if you have any question just let me know. I wish it were feasible for me to try a few horn out for myself but due to my course load and responsibilities my time is extremely limited. Personally all I care for is a good quality trombone with a smooth slide and f attachment. Thanks!
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by bimmerman »

I think you're on the right track-- it's what I've done myself.

Bach 36B, King 3B+ (2113 I believe is the model number), Yamaha.....lots of models but only remember 356, Benge 175F (?), Conn 78H/79H are all commonly available. Of those, the Bach is probably the most ubiquitous, but if buying unseen, I'd check out a site like Dillon's Music, the Brass Exchange, Baltimore Brass, or Brass Ark. See what they have in stock and also ask their feedback (via phone/email) on specific horns. I believe most of those even offer a trial period. DJ Kennedy also is a resource but I have zero idea how to contact the guy.

Once you buy this horn, are you planning on keeping the student horn? Do you have another horn? Might want to consider selling off the student horn to raise more budget for a do-everything medium bore.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by BGuttman »

Just for the record, the 3B+ is 2125.

If you can keep it, the student Bach is better for pep band. That's usually hazardous duty.

DJ Kennedy is usually on the Trombone Chat Facebook page and also the Marketplace on Facebook.

If you want an F-attachment,only King2125s are available from King. Newer 3BPLUS models are only straight horns.

But don't discount the venerable 3B-F. It's only a little smaller than Medium but has great capability.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by bimmerman »

Ah, thanks for the correction. Should've known the right number since I've been debating buying one!

Agreed on the 3B-F (or Selmer Bolero +F) as another good option.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by SwissTbone »

Yamaha ysl 647 straight or 648 with valve are also really good options i think. Discontinued, but they pop up on the used market at very reasonable prices. Well within your budget.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by RConrad »

Thanks for the replies everyone. I don't intend on getting rid of my student horns as they carry sentimental value but are generally worthless otherwise. I'll probably get the Blessing repaired and start using it for pep band as it's my old marching horn. The other horns I was looking at were the Conn 52h and Getzen 725 but I was a bit concerned those could be a bit too dark.

I was looking at a 3B-f when I was just thinking of getting another small bore and when I started looking toward the 607 and 608 hadn't really thought about it much more. I am sitting between a 2B and a Jupiter bass for the jazz ensemble. Been keeping an eye on the classifieds and several other sites like the trombone marketplace FB page, I've seen DJ Kennedy post a few times but haven't been in a place to buy anything and wasn't sure how to go about that with him.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by JLivi »

I've got a Benge 175f that I'm looking to sell. I'm mainly a 3b player and thought I wanted a medium bore for specific gigs and the back and forth was too much for my mental stability :-)

Let me know if you're interested.

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8594
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by brtnats »

To the OP, I was in that boat for a long time. I was playing mostly bass, and I kept a Bach 36C for everything tenor-related, on the notation that I would occasionally need a big horn and occasionally need a small horn, so a medium split the difference. I was never happy with that setup, and when I got the chance I reconfigured.

The problem with a medium is that it’s never going to cut it as a “big horn,” and it’s harder to play than a “small horn.” I’ve been a LOT happier since giving up the medium and getting a .508 with an 8 inch bell. If I get a tenor call for an orchestra, which is totally unlikely, I have access to a .547 F-attachment tenor. But for my daily tenor driver I’m completely satisfied with a .508. It works all the jazz chairs except bass, first in a concert band, “trombone” in every small ensemble I’ve ever been in, pop/rock/ska.

If you’re keeping a bass, I’d recommend looking at smaller horns to cover more bases. If you’re not keeping a bass, 36B or equivalent is going to hit the middle and be a little difficult in most circumstances.

Edit: Yamaha 356 comes up a lot in these situations. Small shank, dual bore (.500/.525), 8 inch red or gold brass bell, good F attachment. It’s as bright as you want it, but a big small-shank mp gets it well into larger tenor territory. No way you’ll do a convincing bass though.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by EOlson9 »

BGuttman wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:33 am Just for the record, the 3B+ is 2125.


If you want an F-attachment,only King2125s are available from King. Newer 3BPLUS models are only straight horns.
I'd seen on here that King does offer the 3B+F as a special order item. I"m trying to confirm that with a store I'm looking to deal with.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by LeoInFL »

I've played 3BF for several years, tried out a 36B and owned a Getzen 1025F too. Since I've spent so much time on my large bore tenor, the sound I get from 8" bell 0.508 or 0.525 bore is underwhelming. I tend to like the medium bore Yamaha's more (I have a 646 currently and a while ago I owned a 684) because of the larger 8 1/2" bells. Still haven't discovered a 'keeper' yet so my search continues.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by RConrad »

JLivi wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:50 pm I've got a Benge 175f that I'm looking to sell. I'm mainly a 3b player and thought I wanted a medium bore for specific gigs and the back and forth was too much for my mental stability :-)

Let me know if you're interested.

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8594
I'll keep your horn in mind while I mull over my options some more.

I would certainly love to just get myself a small bore instead as I personally like my sound on one. There are also some rather interesting ones out there like the Bach 16B Baltimore Brass has available that someone added a f attachment to. I was considering a 356r when I was hoping I had room for two horns.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by Bach5G »

I find I use my .547 in the usual situations and my .508 in the usual situations. It’s not really clear to me where my .525 fits in. Principal in orch, 3rd in BB, maybe.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by BGuttman »

Bach5G wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:28 pm I find I use my .547 in the usual situations and my .508 in the usual situations. It’s not really clear to me where my .525 fits in. Principal in orch, 3rd in BB, maybe.
I find that when I'm not sure what kind of music I need to cover, a Medium Bore with F can be almost a chameleon. If there is a second rehearsal, I can then bring the appropriate horn (i have a variety of sizes from 0.485" small tenor to 0.562" bass).

I think if I had to pare down to one horn (heaven forfend!) it would probably be my Bach 36CG.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by Tarkus697 »

My 36BO fit everything I played in college from 3rd to 1st in jazz ensemble as well as 1st and 2nd in wind ensemble and some symphonic stuff. Playing around with different mouthpieces can make a big difference for the situation as well.

I've got a Yamaha 356G and '66 Selmer Bolero (straight model) now in addition to my 36BO and aside from picking up a bass trombone and *maybe* a Bolero with F attachment (if I can find one), they cover everything I'd need for right now.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by sacfxdx »

RConrad wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:19 pm
JLivi wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:50 pm I've got a Benge 175f that I'm looking to sell. I'm mainly a 3b player and thought I wanted a medium bore for specific gigs and the back and forth was too much for my mental stability :-)

Let me know if you're interested.

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8594
The Benge 175F is a good .525 horn. This is a good price too.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by JLivi »

sacfxdx wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:26 am The Benge 175F is a good .525 horn. This is a good price too.
Man! Everyone keeps telling me that. I have no idea what this thing is worth. But I'd be happy with that selling price :-)
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by Russjones92 »

Lol just to throw another option in your price range if you can find a used JP Rath 331, it’s a cheaper end horn but made with a Michael Rath lead pipe it’s a medium bore (.525) with a 8” bell
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by RConrad »

I decided to give JLivi's 175f a try since he's local and it's a great deal if I like it. If not a King 3BF or Yamaha 356r seem like the logical horns to look at next. Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas. I'm excited to finally be searching for a new to me horn after 17 years.

@Russ I really enjoy the R900 the university lets me play so I'll keep that in mind if I end up getting something other than a medium bore horn.

Also my ensemble got to play with Mike Stern so I'm pretty happy.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by Russjones92 »

RConrad wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:34 pm I decided to give JLivi's 175f a try since he's local and it's a great deal if I like it. If not a King 3BF or Yamaha 356r seem like the logical horns to look at next. Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas. I'm excited to finally be searching for a new to me horn after 17 years.

@Russ I really enjoy the R900 the university lets me play so I'll keep that in mind if I end up getting something other than a medium bore horn.

Also my ensemble got to play with Mike Stern so I'm pretty happy.
The horn I suggested is a medium bore the large bore is the 332 they both have a really solid valve to help fill the gap for your low playing
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by Bach5G »

Anybody mention King 607 and 608s?
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by etbone »

RConrad wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:34 pm I decided to give JLivi's 175f a try since he's local and it's a great deal if I like it. If not a King 3BF or Yamaha 356r seem like the logical horns to look at next. Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas. I'm excited to finally be searching for a new to me horn after 17 years......
Good call. At that price point, you can afford to have the horn look at, by a tech. (Loose solder, weak valve seal) Visual inspections are usually free.

1) Thing to look at most, on older horns, worn(ish) rotor valve. You may only need to use a heavier rotor oil
(Hetman)
An oiled rotor, makes a huge difference. Oil it everytime you play.
2) Horn was designed around the time, everyone was using 6.5al mouthpiece. (it's not the rim size. It's the cup
depth and bore.) Keep that in mind, when trying out the horn. Also, don't play it like a bass, or large tenor.
Don't over blow. (Play it like a .508 tenor.)
3) Buy a balance weight. Benge/King,f-attachment horns,tend to be a little nose heavy. Also, adds a little core, to the sound. (more
mass to the brass.)
I like Benge! Good luck.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by RConrad »

etbone wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:02 am
RConrad wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:34 pm I decided to give JLivi's 175f a try since he's local and it's a great deal if I like it. If not a King 3BF or Yamaha 356r seem like the logical horns to look at next. Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas. I'm excited to finally be searching for a new to me horn after 17 years......
Good call. At that price point, you can afford to have the horn look at, by a tech. (Loose solder, weak valve seal) Visual inspections are usually free.

1) Thing to look at most, on older horns, worn(ish) rotor valve. You may only need to use a heavier rotor oil
(Hetman)
An oiled rotor, makes a huge difference. Oil it everytime you play.
2) Horn was designed around the time, everyone was using 6.5al mouthpiece. (it's not the rim size. It's the cup
depth and bore.) Keep that in mind, when trying out the horn. Also, don't play it like a bass, or large tenor.
Don't over blow. (Play it like a .508 tenor.)
3) Buy a balance weight. Benge/King,f-attachment horns,tend to be a little nose heavy. Also, adds a little core, to the sound. (more
mass to the brass.)
I like Benge! Good luck.
It's interesting that you mention that. I actually met up with JLivi last night and got to try out the horn. I paid him a visit last night after my own rehearsal. The condition of the horn is exactly as he described and can be seen in the pictures. It's what I would describe as well loved. The rotor moves freely and compared to the Rath it's more direct and quiet. The horn is actually super light, it may just be that I had just spent a hour and a half lugging around the Rath but I had no issues with balance but that may change after some time is spent with the horn so I'll look into that. Hadn't considered it's what it might do to the sound.

The big thing I noticed was how much a difference to the sound a mouthpiece made. I brought both a Bach 12c and 6 1/2 al with me. It was kind of surprising how direct the sound was with the 12c while the 6 1/2al felt a bit fuzzy. I understand a bit more why many have struggled with finding the right mouthpiece for a medium bore now. I don't have an answer but it gives me something to explore. I'm still developing so this just reminds me of some of the work I've got ahead of me in addition to my engineering degree.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by PaulT »

I tried a lot of mouthpieces in my .525 (Yamaha 630) and I can identify with your descriptions of the 12C and 6.5AL.

I ended up liking the Bach 7C clearly better than the 12c. It preserved the crisp, clean, and snappy feel of the 12C, but was fuller and less edgy/brittle. Just a nicer sound.

And I liked the Yamaha 48 better than the 6.5 AL. It had the fullness and richness of the 6.5 but was a cleaner, more defined, yet open, blow. It was subtle, but I felt and heard it every time. And when you said
your 6.5 sounded a little "fuzzy" to you, I said, "Yep, me too". (hence the post)

So, if the 6.5 is close but not quite for you, consider trying the Yamaha 48 (Yamaha's mouthpieces are under $50 new, so they are little easier on the wallet). And if you are leaning 12C but want a little fuller, richer sound, give the 7C a try.

I settled on the 48 for both the .525 and my .508 891Z. It ended up being an easy decision for the .525. Took a little longer with the .508. The 7C put up a battle.

I put the 6.5 up against the 48 with my new .547 620. Again, the mouthpieces were close, but compared to the 48, the 6.5 was still just a little "blah". It is a classic, and huge favorite. But, maybe we hear the 6.5 the same way. And maybe we will hear the 48 the same way. For me, the 48 is similar but better, in three different horns.

(As of the today, it looks like the 48D (a little deeper than the regular 48) is the best fit for me and the 620. A Bach 5G fell out of the running fairly quick. A Yamaha 51C4L is showing up in a couple days)
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by Russjones92 »

I would also add if the 6.5AL isn’t quite right try the 6.5A there’s little difference on paper but a significant difference in feel lol
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by etbone »

'Piece makes all the difference on Benge. I've had several Benge 190F. One was from the original year. (Had the original funky King leadpipe) But with the OEM Benge Marcellus mouthpiece, THAT horn was awesome.

Well, a 12c would be naturally more air restricted (relative to your previous rehearsal piece) The 6.5 al, being less so, you might have blown more air (not louder) just more air. You might look up Dennis Wick 9BS, 7BS, or 6BS. When I borrowed a 175f, years ago I used a Conn3 (1967 vintage). It worked pretty well. They can be had, pretty cheaply.

Basically, a 'piece with a v shape cup vs. a bowl shape.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by Trav1s »

I have been playing .525" Bachs or .522" Conns since the mid 80's. These are the 'pieces I find to be good fits for those horns:

- Faxx 6.5AL
- Bach 6.5AM (can't get a Bach 6.5AL to work for my life)
- Schilke 51B (shallower cup)
- Giardinelli Symph-AL
- Faxx and Bach 7C but feel to be a bit of compromise in the lower range
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by RConrad »

I've got to say that I've never been a fan of my 6.5 al with my trombone. It was fine in a baritone and it helped me when I doubled. Part of me thinks I'd like it more if the throat was a bit smaller. Lots of good suggestions for what I can try. I believe Denis Wick has a studio here in Chicago I can go and try their mouthpieces at and Schilke is access town so I have some options. I think I'll follow a similar path as to what was suggested when I asked about a mouthpiece for bass trombone. I'll get something inexpensive that works and let myself develop. A Faxx 7C or Yamaha 48D seem to fit that space but we'll see.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by trompanner »

I've been thinking of adding a medium bore horn to my stable. When I do I'll most likely use a mouthpiece somewhere in the range of a 6.5...maybe a Griego since I've had good experiences with them. Played my undergrad senior recital on a Griego 4M that worked really well for me.

Back to medium bore horns...I just recently saw for sale on Brass Ark an older Shires set-up with .525 bore, 8.5" bell and a Greenhoe valve. By general measurements and specs alone, how is this set-up different than say a Bach 36 handslide modified to join a Bach 42 bell section with say an Olsen valve? In this hypothetical comparison, it seems to me that the two load outs are fairly similar in terms of specifications. Of course playability, tone, feel, resonance, projection, between the two is a whole different discussion to be had.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by Matt K »

trompanner wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:45 pm I've been thinking of adding a medium bore horn to my stable. When I do I'll most likely use a mouthpiece somewhere in the range of a 6.5...maybe a Griego since I've had good experiences with them. Played my undergrad senior recital on a Griego 4M that worked really well for me.

Back to medium bore horns...I just recently saw for sale on Brass Ark an older Shires set-up with .525 bore, 8.5" bell and a Greenhoe valve. By general measurements and specs alone, how is this set-up different than say a Bach 36 handslide modified to join a Bach 42 bell section with say an Olsen valve? In this hypothetical comparison, it seems to me that the two load outs are fairly similar in terms of specifications. Of course playability, tone, feel, resonance, projection, between the two is a whole different discussion to be had.
Depends on the Shires! They don't play uniformly. At all. None of the boutique horns do because of the dizzying array of options available. Even 'stock' horns that have few options seldom play alike from one to the next (e.g. a Bach 42HWG is a lot different than a 42LW for myriad reasons to the extent that you might feel perfectly comfortable making a career on one and then want to... well.. not on the other! If you're talking about this Shires:
A lovely Shires trombone set with the following specs: T25 standard .525" bore slide (leadpipe for small and large shank included), 8.5" 7YLWT7 bell, gold brass tuning slide, Greenhoe valve (original Greenhoe fabricated by Shires), additional Eb valve slide, straight neckpipe with Greenhoe rest bar. $3800 without case.
The bell is quite lightweight (being both lightweight and T7 treatment, that thins the bell even further). The 7 is a two-piece bell with a soldered bell bead. A Bach 42 (no modifiers) is going to be slightly heavier, one-piece, and also a soldered bell bead if I'm remembering correctly. So in isolation, this bell is going to probably be more lively and responsive but at the expense of a little bit of centeredness compared to a 42 bell. Maybe.

Gold brass tuning slide - So the Shires tuning slides have a different taper than Bach. They actually sell a Bach style taper (the "X" tuning slide). If you're used to a Bach the Shires one might be ifne but it is different. If you want something that responds exactly like the Bach, you'll want to replace this with the "X". The stock 42 ts is yellow brass too fwiw; the gold if it truly does make a difference here is going to make it a little more covered sounding, possibly darker, at the expense of a little clarity of articulation. This is actually probably really well balanced with the bell; it isn't uncommon to have a tuning slide of a different material than the bell, especially a bell that leans towards the brighter, more responsive side of things.

Valves - Hard to say; not many people have tried the Infinity rotors. I'm about to take delivery on a bass with them. I've heard good things about both. Eb valve is cool. Neckpipe is too.

T25 - yellow brass tubes, with outer sleeves, narrow, nickel crook. This is pretty close to the 36 slide, which has a yellow brass crook. The leadpipes are cool though. The large shank really makes a tremendous difference if you are playing something that needs to be a little more broad. It isn't easy to convert a 36 to do this too, fwiw. They don't say which ones... probably an M2 and MT2. Those are middle of the road... if you do get this and you don't like the horn... consider tyring one of those two types of leadpipes. Medium bores are make-or-break in my experience if you don't get the leadpipe right but if you do they are unbelievably versatile.

So with all that said, there's no telling how one part might play in isolation compared to another... I think with all the differences you can easily say this won't play like a 36 depending on what your definition of 'like' is. However, it's probably a really solid horn and the price is pretty favorable for what you get (the valve/straight option, Eb tuning slide, and the ability to do the leadpipes). That said, it's also more expensive than if you were to do all those things on your own though honestly not by much.

Shameless plug, the YSL646 (of which I have for sale that would make a pretty good proejct horn actually) has the specs you are looking for - 1 piece, 8.5" bell, 525/525 slide. Doesn't have pullable pipes but it wouldn't be hard to get it to be removable. Certainly less than $3800!! Probably closer to $1000-1800 all said and done depending on again, how patient you are and relative availability as they aren't made anymore. The YSL640 would also be a good candidate but those are a new model and seldom pop up on the used market at this point.
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Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by Posaunus »

RConrad wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:46 am I've got to say that I've never been a fan of my 6.5 al with my trombone. ... Part of me thinks I'd like it more if the throat was a bit smaller.
If you want such a mouthpiece from Bach (with a 25.4mm cup I.D.), the 6½A (5.85mm) and 6½AM (6.53mm) both have smaller throats than the 6½AL (6.63mm).

Or for other mouthpieces with a nominal 25.4mm cup I.D. and smaller throats, you could try:
• Giardinelli 4M (6.25mm throat)
• Josef Klier 8C (6.4mm throat)
• Laskey 54M (6.35mm throat)
• Marcinkiewicz 11 (5.94mm throat)
• Denis Wick 7CS (6.24mm throat)
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EOlson9
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:34 pm
Location: La Crosse, WI

Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by EOlson9 »

I recently bought a King 3b+f and use a Wick 7cs and its amazing.
Baritone Horn, Winona Brass Band
Euphonium La Crosse Concert Band
Euphonium, Tuba, Westby City Band
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RConrad
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:08 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Is a medium bore right for me?

Post by RConrad »

EOlson9 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:16 pm I recently bought a King 3b+f and use a Wick 7cs and its amazing.
I took the opportunity to visit the Denis Wick studio here in Chicago to try out a few different mouthpieces in the range I was considering. It was a pretty nice experience and something I'll probably repeat when I start looking at larger bass trombone mouthpieces. After playing around with the classic and heritage versions of the 12CS, 10CS, 7CS and 9BS I settled with the heritage version of the 9BS. It's what felt most comfortable and what I felt like required the least about of stress to play. We'll see how it works out as I have a lot of room to improve.
Robert C
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