Benge 175f

[JLivi]

I know there's been a little discussion about the 175f on here, but i wanted to start my own thread with an experience I've recently had with one. I just traded for a Benge 175f, and when I brought it in for repairs my repair tech gave me some really good knowledge about the horn. Here's what he said.

Apparently King 3b+ & 4b's were not selling that great, so they discontinued those models. I'm not quite sure of the era this happened though. With the leftover materials they rebranded as "Benge" and came out with their "symphony" model trombones. The difference between the King's and Benge's though are the thumb rest of the f attachment. As you might know, the 3bf has the thumb rest over the brace, but on the Benge, it's under the brace. My repair tech also, went on to say that there were only a few hundred 175's that were made and they are somewhat of a rare find.

The horn plays beautifully and it reminds me of my 3b, so it makes the transition from horn to horn really easy. And it's everything I've been looking for out of a medium bore.

If anyone has anything to add, or correct me on, I'd love to know more about this horn.

[BGuttman]

The Benge horns came out around 1983 or so. They were supposed to be more "symphonic" than the "B" horns. The attachments were single loop similar to what was used on the 7B and 8B but otherwise were similar to Conn. There was also a "jazz" horn, the 170, that replaced the 2115 2B+.

Sadly, the Benge line was not the answer and the horns were discontinued.

They go for very good prices and are a great bang for the buck.

[hyperbolica]

I owned a 175f for a while, and thought it played almost exactly like my Conn 79h, but was somewhat more modern, with the open wrap and an updated trigger mechanism. Very nice horns. The 79h has a wider slide, and the 175f has the rounded 3B type slide crook.

[imsevimse]

I have a few Benge horns in my collection and they are as I've heard it "the best of King and Conn". They are rare if you look at ebay, either because there are not many made or the ones who own them hold on to them. What I've heard they were discontinued as to scale down the competing models when the brand's were under UMI control. Large bore trombones and bass trombones should be Conn and small bores should be King. UMI wanted to direct us to but a few popular models and the Benge trombones had to go because it had not as big share on the market as the others, and Benge trombone production was also rather new. I think that was sad. The Benge is another kind of horn, nor King nor Conn.

The model that seem most frequent is the Benge 165f which is a .547 with closed wrap. It was said to be an intermediate horn or step up horn. This is the only model I have not played. I have the open wrap Benge 190 Symphonic that was marketed as a professional model. My variant is the convertable Benge 190C and was owned and used by the solo trombonist of the Stockholm Radio Orchestra. It may have been a special order. It was used in the orchestra for a period. There were a few in that orchestra who played them, but the Benge was soon abandoned. I do not know the reason. The sound and feel is closer to a King 4B than to a Conn 88h. The grip and trigger is definately Conn and personally I like that better than King.

The straight Benge 175 symphonic and the open wrap 175f symphonic are .525. The 175 is like a King 3b+. I don't know if they were produced at the same time or if the King 3b+ was the result of the discondinue of the Benge line. The Benge 175f is the open wrap variant of the King 3b+/f-valve. I have never seen another straight Benge 175 and only but a few 175f.

The Benge 170 Freelance model is a 8" bell .500 jazz horn that also is very King like but there is no King model quite the same. The closest is the 7.75" .500 King 2b+ but they do not play the same. I would say the Benge 170 is the King version of a Conn 6h. I have only seen one other 170 on ebay, and I also know one friend (a collector) who owned one.

The Bass trombone Benge 290 is inline with 10" bell and open wrap. The trigger valves are interchangeable which means the second valve can be either G or Gb. This is a very nice bass trombone and what people have told me is an improved King 8b. I have not played a 8b so I wouldn't know that. I have seen a couple of these horns on ebay.

My experience from ebay is from 2013 and I have been there often so I guess most of the Benge models are rare. From market on ebay the 165f and the 290 bass are more common. Looking back there can not have been many Benge sold at the Swedish market when they were originally made. I have only met two players with Benge trombones over the years (from 80ies) One is a friend who uses his 175f. He is why I got my eyes on those trombones. I don't know how they were recieved in the USA.

To sum my impression of the Benge is they are great.

/Tom

[chromebone]

I recently spoke to Chuck Ward, the designer of the Benge line, about the rise and fall of Benge. According to him, the small bore Kings were still popular in certain circles, but the large bore horns were virtually non existent in orchestras, aside from the Cleveland orchestra. He set out to design a line of horns based on the King designs, using as many King parts as possible, but updated to compete with Bach and Conn. This was in the late 70’s, and King was still owned by Seeburg and independent of Conn and Bach and Holton.

The 175 uses the same bell mandrill as the King 3B, but the bell is annealed, as are all of the Benge trombone bells.

The 190 bell is actually based on a King 5B bell, not the 4B as is commonly assumed, but it is 8 1/2” in diameter instead of 9” and it is annealed as well. The Annealing process was probably the biggest innovation developed for these horns, and it is the secret sauce Edwards and Shires has adopted for certain bells in their lines. The other big improvement made was that the f attachment is .562 instead of .547 as was found on the 4B and 5B and they have a more open neckpipe and unique leadpipe.

Unfortunately, right after the Benge horns were introduced, Seeburg sold off King to the company that would eventually become UMI and the new owner had no interest in the Benge instruments. They continued well into the Conn-Selmer period, but by the mid 2000’s, there was only the student 165, and eventually the brand was discontinued.

They are truly great horns, though. It’s a shame Conn- Selmer can’t figure out a way to incorporate them in their line up, but with Edwards and Shires and other boutique makers available, maybe that ship has passed. Who even knows if they have the mandrills and jigs anymore for them.

[imsevimse]

Thank you for the update, Chromebone! I had no idea the 190 had the King 5b bell. I do not own either a 4b nor a 5b so I have not compared them in a closeup. I have tried both 4b's and 5b's and the ones I've tried have not been to my liking. King is one of my favorite brands for small bore (2b's and 3b's) but the larger Kings have never attracted me much, they have not been enough "symphonic" to my taste and that seems to be equal to the excuse to create the better Benge 190. Are there any more Benge models?

/Tom

[chromebone]

The 190 has a larger throat than a 4B. I think the thing that really sets the Benge apart from the King is the annealing process.
The large bore Kings are the result of George Szell wanting the sound of the Schmidt trombone that he was used to from Europe in the Cleveland orchestra. Apparently the Schmidts the orchestra owned were difficult to play and really didn’t sound too good, so Robert Boyd, the principal at the time. went to King and worked with George McCracken at King to design an instrument that was playable by modern standards and still mostly retain the sound Szell wanted. Boyd played a 5B. The 5B is basically the King Symphony bell that they have made since the ‘30’s attached to a modernized .547 slide and valve assembly. I’m not sure about the 4B, but I suspect it’s basically a sized up 3b bell.

[ngrinder]

Great info on the Benge line here! I have a 175f and love it, it’s so versatile and comfortable to play. I own both a 79H and a Bach 34, and would say the Benge is definitely a “legit King” on par with both those instruments.

I also have a 170 bell I picked up on eBay, and have been looking for a 3B slide to go with it, as it would be great to use that bell with a horn. I think the 7.75 size bell bridges the gap in so many different styles of playing.

[imsevimse]

Are you sure your Benge 170 bell is 7.75". When I googled the 170 model there is a source (not very scientific) that says the bell is 7.75 and also says it is equal to a 2b+. I doubt that, or there are variances. My 170 bell is larger than my 2b+ bell and equal to my Yamaha 891Z bell which is 8" so definitely 8".
Make sure you get the 2b+ slide if you want it to be close to original since this is .500, a King 3b slide is .508.

/Tom

[JLivi]

So here's a follow up question.

I've noticed that there are a few cases that don't fit Benges. What is a good case I can buy that will protect the horn?

The issue is that I will be traveling with this horn and would like to find something that is slimmer, if possible. But it doesn't seem possible, especially since I'm used to my BAM soft pack jazz and Eastman case.

Thanks for all the insight so far!

[JLivi]

Does anyone know if the Benge 175 is a true medium bore, or if it's a dual bore (.508/.525)?

[hyperbolica]

It's full 525. Not dual bore.