Edwards vs Shires

Noahharry · Post by **Noahharry** » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:23 pm

I know this will be contentious... Anyway!

I will in the next few months be traveling a ton for college auditions. My parents and I have talked and as a graduation gift, I will be receiving a new trombone. I will either go to the Shires factory or Edwards factory on the way back from an audition to get a horn that I will hopefully be using far into the future. My question is since I can only go to one since neither is really close to me, which should I go to, Edwards or Shires?

I currently play on a Shires Q series, which you may ask "of course Shires! Just swap out parts on your current horn" Well, unfortunately, I purchased mine at a time when these weren't compatible with the real deal, or at least it hasn't ever been compatible with the many parts I have tried, so I currently have no investment into shires other than I already play one of their horns, which I love so I'm inclined to play Shires.

On the flip side, where I currently live, Edwards is popping off and I have tried a few of the local players' horns. I absolutely love them! Edwards also has the Alessi Horn, which I have tried and adored!

So I'm conflicted, I think either way I will be fine, they both make fantastic horns. And either way, I will be spending $5000+

So which do you think? Edwards or Shires?

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:27 pm

I think it doesn't really matter. If you plan to go to New England Conservatory, most of your classmates will be playing Shires. I suspect that Edwards has better penetration in the Midwest.

Remember that the Alessi (T-396) has limited capability to swap parts; unlike the T-350. This may not be important, but I thought I should mention it.

Good luck wherever you go and whatever you choose.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:46 pm

I would play the Q for a year or two, and then get the fully custom horn when you know what you really want out of it.

I know a few too many college freshmen with setups not really suited for them after a couple years.

Post by **Matt K** » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:49 pm

If your Q series isn't compatible with other parts you may have damaged it (or it may have never been right in the first place). That can happen over time. The tolerances have to be really precise. It would be worth having it checked out, especially if you are so close to them. You might find that getting everything aligned properly might make it substantially better. Or perhaps not but worth getting looked at either way. If you are insistent on going up there to get the horn, you could very potentially find that you only need to swap out a small component and they can bring the rest of it into alignment for you as well.

Slideorama · Post by **Slideorama** » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:02 pm

Noah - put that money in the bank. Tell your professor in a few years what horn they would recommend. Then, take lessons with future professors for grad school and ask them what they would recommend. THEN buy a new horn. No horn will improve things for you more than progressive practice over the next 6-10 years. AND the Q horn is audition winning quality as it is.

GBP · Post by **GBP** » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:39 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:46 pm I would play the Q for a year or two, and then get the fully custom horn when you know what you really want out of it.

I know a few too many college freshmen with setups not really suited for them after a couple years.

Burger bob is absolutely correct. Your playing will change a fair amount between now and the end of your freshman year. Wait and have a conversation with your university trombone professor and then go buy a horn.

GBP · Post by **GBP** » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:40 pm

Slideorama wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:02 pm Noah - put that money in the bank. Tell your professor in a few years what horn they would recommend. Then, take lessons with future professors for grad school and ask them what they would recommend. THEN buy a new horn. No horn will improve things for you more than progressive practice over the next 6-10 years. AND the Q horn is audition winning quality as it is.

Slideorama is absolutely correct.

castrubone · Post by **castrubone** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:15 am

With apologies to the bubble I’m about to burst...I agree with holding off, unless your current horn is falling apart. Even in that case I would still buy a good used stock (Conn, Bach, Yamaha, another Q series) horn from a reputable dealer/forum member. You’ll save a lot of money and get a horn that will work very well for most of what you’re going to do.

Custom horns are not necessary or needed for the vast majority of players, IMO. Take a good stock horn as far as it goes and who knows, it might never need to be replaced.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:27 am

The best part about the T396A is that you can't swap parts -- not even the leadpipe.

TromboneConcerto · Post by **TromboneConcerto** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:44 am

Fully in agreement with all saying to hold off on getting a horn. I personally went into my undergrad on a fully custom shires and now, 3 years in, I'm ready for a near full new setup. Don't waste your parents' money... The Q series is a fantastic horn and could last you your whole life if you want it to... Play on it for a few years and then get a new horn with your teacher.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:11 am

Says the guy getting a completely different custom setup.

Post by **Matt K** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:22 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:27 am The best part about the T396A is that you can't swap parts -- not even the leadpipe.

Except the pillars, which have 9 * 3 * 2 = 54 combinations?

JonTheCadet · Post by **JonTheCadet** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:35 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:22 am
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:27 am The best part about the T396A is that you can't swap parts -- not even the leadpipe.
Except the pillars, which have 9 * 3 * 2 = 54 combinations?

Slightly off with the maths. 17 * 15 * 13 combinations. 3315 combinations but I might be wrong as well. If you try a different combo each day it will take you 9 years before finding which one you like the best.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:43 am

I'd play the Q series until you get guidance from your university prof.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:07 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:22 am
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:27 am The best part about the T396A is that you can't swap parts -- not even the leadpipe.
Except the pillars, which have 9 * 3 * 2 = 54 combinations?

Way more, but you don't have to use them. And if you do, you never need to buy expensive parts to swap out. If custom is what you want, it's a lot of bang for your buck.

edit: also, don't forget that the two long pillars are fully adjustable. They have as many positions in each direction in each hole as there are atom lengths along the threads. But let's give them an arbitrary number and say that each one has 25 positions they can be in along the length of the thread. That is a ridiculous number of combos. I actually don't use more than one pillar at a time, and 99.99% of the time it's the copper "1", in the middle hole. Using two at a time is really almost too much, and 3 generally ruins the playability of the horn. We could get a better number of combos if you eliminate the possibility of using 3 at once, and also more than one long pillar at once, and set the number of useable lengths of the long pillars to only 5 basic lengths. So that'd be 10 total long pillars (only one of which can be used in any given configuration), and 6 total short pillars. I have no idea how to figure the rest out, since you can't have two pillars in the same hole at one time.

The best way to dial it in is to just use either the copper or zinc "1" until something feels better than no pillars at all. Once you know what works, you can use the other numbers in the same configurations to fine tune it. The long pillars are pretty crazy. I tend to not bother with them.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:26 am

A few years ago I ran into a friend at the Alessi Seminar in Eugene. He was playing Shires at the time. He raved about the Edwards horns that were on display. I lost touch with him afterwards.

He must have sold his Shires and bought an Edwards though, because I recently saw a Facebook ad in which he was looking to trade his Edwards for, yes, a Shires.

Far be it from me to criticize someone’s horn choices. Buy all that you can afford. I’m not so sure about “buy all that your parents can afford”.

But maybe wait until you finish first year. See what your teacher thinks. Maybe you’ll find another major (I ended up in law school). Maybe you’ll want a Schagerl. Or a Sarastro.

There are lots of ways to go on this.

sterb225 · Post by **sterb225** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:23 pm

I'm a recent fan of fixed horns and would highly recommend the T-396 as it allows lot's of ability to tailor the response without getting into the expensive hobby of swapping out larger parts. The harmonic pillar system really has an impact on the way the horn plays ... but don't judge the impact until you've got at least a couple of hundred hours into the horn. I fell in love with it 'naked' and after a year and half finally started to toy with the pillars and am amazed at the different responses that can be dialed in.

LeTromboniste · Post by **LeTromboniste** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:53 pm

I support the "put it in the bank" and wait suggestion. You have a very good instrument already that can last you through college without any problem. A lot of people who get a new horn at the point you're at end up changing after just a couple years.

Also, there's a few big caveats to the fancy brand new modular custom trombone bandwagon.
1) To start with, being much more expensive and being modular don't make them inherently better. If it did, every top trombone player would play them, and that is not the case. Plenty of high level players playing 42s and 88Hs out there still. Plenty of people play other more expensive fixed horns. I have known so many people who switched back from Shires to fixed classic horns.

2) the resale value is often comparatively much lower than with classic fixed horns (proportional to the original price), because people who buy modular want a specific combination of parts, and unless you're lucky and find a buyer who is looking for exactly the combination you have, you might very well have to sell it for quite a bit less than it's worth. Everyone I know who sold one had to either sell for much less than they expected or wait a very long time to find a buyer (or both). That is not such a big problem when you can expect it to be your main horn for many years or when the money is not an issue, but as a soon to be college student who can't possibly know how their playing will change, it's a big gamble. Chances are you'll loose some money, which could have been very useful spent elsewhere.

3) for the same price as a new Shires or Edwards, you can 2 or even 3 very good used instruments (e.g. Large tenor plus small/jazz tenor and/or alto), which you will need to buy before you finish college or grad school anyway.

Mikebmiller · Post by **Mikebmiller** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:21 am

I don't know where you live, but Shires has dealers in various places where you can try the various combos of parts. In the Southeast, Sheridan Brass is a big Shires dealer. If you can make it to Dillon Music in NJ, they have a huge selection of trombones. Also, they may give you a trade in on your current horn. When I got my Rath, they gave me $2,100 for my 20 year old Edwards, which was $600 more than I paid for it. If your Q is in good shape, you might get $1,500 or more for it.

You may also want to try to make it to ITF convention in Indiana next summer, where you can try every trombone made on planet Earth.

Good luck!

Ellefson · Post by **Ellefson** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:55 am

First off...what a great circumstance! For such a big commemoration, you desire a new instrument and your parents are willing to help you with that. Really neat and completely exciting!

That said, I must agree with those who have suggested that you wait and get input from your new trombone professor. There are certainly “flavor of the month” instruments out there...and companies that know exactly how to market to someone like you. By waiting and learning more about what you will really need, you will end up buying one horn that meets those needs, instead of one now and another a year from now. You are about to enter a completely new world. It is wise to learn from those who are more familiar with the territory...and yes, there are more choices than the ones you cite.

PE

Trav1s · Post by **Trav1s** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:09 pm

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:21 am You may also want to try to make it to ITF convention in Indiana next summer, where you can try every trombone made on planet Earth.

Good luck!

Wise advice here...

I went to ITF last summer (age 46 with 30+ years of trombone playing under my belt) with a few large bore horns on my radar and yet open to what I might encounter. Long story short - my first choice (Latzsch SL-240) was from a manufacturer I had not heard of. Both first and second choices (Latzsch and Yamaha) were fixed horns with a Rath 3R coming in third. I played about every large bore horn I could get my hands on - some were immediately nope, others were interesting, and the top 3 choices were just right from the beginning. Some might argue I did not take the time to dial in modular horns but those top two choices really make me curious about the value of a fixed horn. Things might be different for me if I liked the more open valves but I find the Rotax and Yamaha valves hard to beat.

Try as many as you can, be open to what you encounter, and play what works.

TubaDavey · Post by **TubaDavey** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:37 pm

Another advocate of waiting. It will give your sound a chance to develop more and you’ll have a better idea of what you want in a horn, as well as further guidance from your instructor. Since you have a good horn already, there isn’t any point in rushing to get a boutique horn “because so and so plays one”

Schlitz · Post by **Schlitz** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:39 pm

whitbey · Post by **whitbey** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:54 pm

I bought my first Edwards in the 90's. My playing has changed, and the Edwards people have been very helpful as I change and improve. I have played several Shires horns and feel they are very nice too. Hindsight for me is the Edwards people have been more wonderful then their horns.
As far as needing a horn for what you do........well we do not need, we want. And our wants can improve our ability to play better. I am fortunate that my real estate commissions have taken care of my wants well and I enjoy my Edwards horns.
I can also say that as you grow as a player, things change. So, the people that help at the factory will probably be more helpful for those changes in the coming years.
My guess is call both Edwards and Shires. Talk to them. See who you like talking to best and go see them.
But I like my Edwards.

havard · Post by **havard** » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:50 am

I think a great Conn 88 is a great horn for students for several reasons .it is cheaper and it is the most versatile horn of the large bores.
i find it easier to play in the upper range than bachtype setups and generally less heavy to blow . Easy to color and "agile" in rapid passages. i find the ergonomy MUCH better on conns (narrow slides ) than wide slides shires, edwards , bachs. all these things together makes a 88 great for å student, for countless practice hours , exhausting recitals, auditions, Chamber music (88s are great for this ). i did play 88 when i was a student . i can remember i was much less nervous at auditions and recitals than later on, when i played Bachs/Bach style horns. for me the 88 is much , much secure and easy in the very high range , especially D and Db. playing an recitals or auditions on certain "huge" setups, waiting for those highest tones to come - be it bolero, zarathustra, l'enfant, Tomas , Frank Martin , has occassionally been a nightmare .
also due to tired lips due to forceful practice ahead to nail the upper range .

many play bach style setups because you can get a huge sound and playing incredibly loud without breaking up. you may find that a 88 get more flashy at loud volumes and is generally not so broad. it has finesse and will give the sound you put in .
with practice you can make it sound orchestral and broad. I think the yellow bell 88 is very underrated. i find it being very even throughout the dynamic range . holds better together at loud volumes than the red bell and very clear at pp. generally great projection .

if i should but a 88 today it would be either :

a yellow bell 88 with standard valve . i dont like the Lindberg valve.
i am not sure if the open wrap actually play more open than the closed one . i like the vintage look of the closed wrap and (maybe placebo ?..dont know...

the closed wrap might "gather" the sound better than the closed .

or
an elkhart 88 from the 60s.
Noah at brassark does stock great Elkharts occassionally . you can get a phenomenal Elkhart from him for cheaper amount than a New Edwards or Shires . such a horn could be your first choice horn throughout your career, never need to upgrade from.

Getzen and Shires do stock narrow slide 88 type horns .
Getzen Bousfield model, Shires Ralph Sauer model and their own setups.

but i think the original is the best , especially an elkhart .

FEWeathers · Post by **FEWeathers** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:09 pm

Those who have counseled waiting, or buying a quality used horn, are offering you wisdom, at a bargain price. Heed them, Grasshopper.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:16 pm

Those Elkies are getting upwards of 60 years old. I think I’d be careful in recommending one.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:35 pm

Why? Do they tend to become fragile as they age?

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:54 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:35 pm Why? Do they tend to become fragile as they age?

Actually, yes. A horn played for 60 years accumulates dents, bumps, and other damages. The accumulated work hardening from repairs can make them harder and harder to repair. Worn plating on the inner slide can make the slide action a bit dodgy. And don't forget the possibility of red rot.

A good "experienced" instrument in good condition might be a joy to play, but there are others that have seen some hard usage.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:03 pm

As long as the instrument isn't damaged and has no wear on the inners, being 60 yrs old shouldn't matter. There are string instruments much older then that still being used today. And we are talking about instruments made from metal, not wood and glue.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:12 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:03 pm As long as the instrument isn't damaged and has no wear on the inners, being 60 yrs old shouldn't matter. There are string instruments much older then that still being used today. And we are talking about instruments made from metal, not wood and glue.

“As long as the instrument isn’t damaged and has no wear on the inners...”

Well obviously.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:19 pm

Sometimes the obvious to you has to be stated to those not in the know. You never explained why you'd be careful recommending one.

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:46 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:19 pm Sometimes the obvious to you has to be stated to those not in the know. You never explained why you'd be careful recommending one.

You missed the actual point. The condition is what is important. I have two 90 year old instruments I play from time to time. Chris Stearn (Blast) has some older ones. In good condition a 60 year old instrument is fine. But as time goes by the number in good condition grows fewer and fewer.

LeTromboniste · Post by **LeTromboniste** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:06 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:03 pm As long as the instrument isn't damaged and has no wear on the inners, being 60 yrs old shouldn't matter. There are string instruments much older then that still being used today. And we are talking about instruments made from metal, not wood and glue.

Actually, wood ages much better than metal and a string instrument is much harder to destroy beyond repairs (even the horrible "after being dropped from a plane belly and run over with the bagage chariot" kind of damage is usually repairable by a skilled luthier whereas this kind of damage to a trombone would make it a total loss). The glue you mention is rarely very old. I'm not sure how many ancient string instruments are in original condition but it is definitely very few. Most were opened up and modified several times in their lives. I don't think there's any Stradivari or Guarnieri that are still in original condition, most if not all have a modern setup (meaning the neck and finger board and tailpiece are typically not original and they have been disassembled and glued back together). Wood is stable, whereas brass oxydizes, which can be slowed down but can't be stopped, at least not if the instrument is being played.

Brass also tends to become very brittle with old age to the point of becoming almost impossible to repair, so while they might be playable, at some point they stop being suitable for daily use. That being said there are plenty of antique brass instruments that play very well. There are a few 200-400 years old trombones around in museum that are reportedly stellar instruments.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:16 pm

"That being said there are plenty of antique brass instruments that play very well. There are a few 200-400 years old trombones around in museum that are reportedly stellar instruments."

Thank you for the info re string instruments. So, we should not hesitate to recommend a 60 year old Conn trombone for daily use if it is in otherwise good condition.

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:22 pm

I'd hesitate to recommend a 10 year old Shires that is not in good condition.

Post by **blast** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:02 am

There are two elements here.... what to buy and when to buy.

When is easy.... after you have settled into college and in conjunction with your professor. I often have students turn up with some fancy trombone, quite different from the one they used at audition and a less good waste of money.

What.... that will be a consequence of current professional fashion. All professionals play instruments that acceptable to the players they work with. Those makes and models change with time and location.

Chris

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:50 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:22 pm I'd hesitate to recommend a 10 year old Shires that is not in good condition.

I guess it is you who is missing the point. We were specifically talking about 60 year old Conn trombones and, by extension, any 60 year old professional grade trombone.

GBP · Post by **GBP** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:32 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:50 am
BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:22 pm I'd hesitate to recommend a 10 year old Shires that is not in good condition.
I guess it is you who is missing the point. We were specifically talking about 60 year old Conn trombones and, by extension, any 60 year old professional grade trombone.

He might be missing your point. I do believe, though, you are missing his. It happens when everyone is striving to be the right one.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:49 pm

Since you inserted yourself into the conversation, explain what I am missing which I haven't already addressed. And one is allowed to make an argument and support that argument, something I feel makes a conversation interesting. So, of course I'm trying to find the truth and what is right.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:00 pm

We were discussing whether a 60 year old instrument is a good investment. But it really depends on condition. Similarly, I stated that even a 10 year old top line instrument in bad condition is a bad investment. So it appears we were talking past each other. I apologize for not being more specific.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:13 pm

(Sigh) The internet ...

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:39 pm

Sigh...You never did answer my question.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:13 pm

Are you talkin’ to me?

If so, maybe you could repeat the question?

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:00 pm

After asking it several times it's not worth it.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:23 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:00 pm After asking it several times it's not worth it.

The answer to your question is to wait until you have a few lessons with your professor in College. If you have to hand your trombone back to your school when you graduate and actually need something NOW, go ahead and buy a good horn. Note that there is more than Shires and Edwards, although they are the fad hons of today (as the Conn 88H was in Remington's day). Don't discount Rath, Courtois, M&W, and other custom builders.

GBP · Post by **GBP** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:49 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:49 pm Since you inserted yourself into the conversation, explain what I am missing which I haven't already addressed. And one is allowed to make an argument and support that argument, something I feel makes a conversation interesting. So, of course I'm trying to find the truth and what is right.

You are posting on a forum in a conversation open to all. If your goal was to have a confidential conversation, the best option is a pm.

My point was, under the right conditions, both your statements could be correct.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:24 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cgf14aae0qnxn ... M.png?dl=0

mithril · Post by **mithril** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:35 am

The earliest Q horns weren't built to be compatible with the Custom Series, so if your Q horn isn't compatible, you can contact them and they'll adapt your horn to be compatible with the Custom Series free of charge.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:36 pm

I have to lighten the tension here. It's been a while, but I just saw this. I feel like people beat up on these posts without unpacking them first.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:03 pm As long as the instrument isn't damaged and has no wear on the inners, being 60 yrs old shouldn't matter. There are string instruments much older then that still being used today. And we are talking about instruments made from metal, not wood and glue.

What is a lil' oxidation and corrosion, really? Metal is tough and lasts forever once exposed to biologic conditions on Earth. It is a miracle that biologically derived components (string instruments) can resist it at all.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:19 pm Sometimes the obvious to you has to be stated to those not in the know. You never explained why you'd be careful recommending one.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:50 am I guess it is you who is missing the point. We were specifically talking about 60 year old Conn trombones and, by extension, any 60 year old professional grade trombone.

Always use professional grade. Professional grade mouthpiece. Professional grade tooth paste. Professional grade anything. People earning their keep always refer to the gear they use as professional grade. I drove my pro grade Ford Escape to work today. It was adequate.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:49 pm Since you inserted yourself into the conversation, explain what I am missing which I haven't already addressed. And one is allowed to make an argument and support that argument, something I feel makes a conversation interesting. So, of course I'm trying to find the truth and what is right.

I like this. Even if you enter a conversation halfway through, it is possible for people who were already present in the discussion before you arrived to rudely insert themselves into your conversation.

Hopefully the history of trombone thread can get us to the one truth in art and we can nail this coffin closed. I too would like to arrive at the definitive solution to trombone playing.