Straight versus f-attachment

User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 957
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by elmsandr »

Pre59 wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:45 am I practice them and use them almost every time I play in public, in the form of tritone intervals.
Ain't no big deal..
No big deal to you. I have tables of data that can tell us what percentage of people in each physical size range will have problems. That’s why there are industrial ergonomics.

Can it be done? Sure. Should it? Maybe not. Just because it was always done that way does not mean it should be done that way. Look at Mr. Yeo’s post about his new horn and the challenges he has seen with repeated stresses.

That said, still trying to build a long double slide in Eb so that I can use my straight Bach 45 in more settings...

Cheers,
Andy
timothy42b
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:51 am
Location: central Virginia

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by timothy42b »

elmsandr wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:31 pm
That said, still trying to build a long double slide in Eb so that I can use my straight Bach 45 in more settings...

Cheers,
Andy
Would that be EEb? Sounds useful.
User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 957
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by elmsandr »

timothy42b wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:15 pm
elmsandr wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:31 pm
That said, still trying to build a long double slide in Eb so that I can use my straight Bach 45 in more settings...

Cheers,
Andy
Would that be EEb? Sounds useful.
Yup. Also probably good for a double take or two with the straight bell section and the bass sound.

Lengths line up pretty good for some standard parts, too. Just have to take two slides, trim them a little bit and make them into one.

Staying somewhat on topic, this should also keep almost all reaches within ~20” of the center of the shoulder. That’s a pretty good reach distance that is good for over 95% of most populations.

Cheers,
Andy
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 5896
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by BGuttman »

Osmun Brass actually made one of these for Doug Yeo some time ago. Used two Bach 50 slides and a custom bell section. Was in Eb. I think it got 9 positions on the double slide. They were showing it off one day I happened to be there and they let me toot on it. Except for the Bartok Gliss I wasn't sure what I'd so with the thing, but it was certainly impressive.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
User avatar
LeTromboniste
Posts: 1019
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am
Location: Sion, CH

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by LeTromboniste »

BGuttman wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:47 am Osmun Brass actually made one of these for Doug Yeo some time ago. Used two Bach 50 slides and a custom bell section. Was in Eb. I think it got 9 positions on the double slide. They were showing it off one day I happened to be there and they let me toot on it. Except for the Bartok Gliss I wasn't sure what I'd so with the thing, but it was certainly impressive.
With a Bb valve?
Maximilien Brisson
www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 5896
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by BGuttman »

LeTromboniste wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:25 am
BGuttman wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:47 am Osmun Brass actually made one of these for Doug Yeo some time ago. Used two Bach 50 slides and a custom bell section. Was in Eb. I think it got 9 positions on the double slide. They were showing it off one day I happened to be there and they let me toot on it. Except for the Bartok Gliss I wasn't sure what I'd so with the thing, but it was certainly impressive.
With a Bb valve?
No valve.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
User avatar
BillO
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:26 am
Location: Deep woods of central Ontario

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by BillO »

Seems a bit weird to talk abut purity of tone and false notes in the same argument. I would be willing to bet every trombonist on earth could play a low Db with more purity of tone using an F-att than by doing it with false notes.

In any case, this thread seems to have gotten a bit silly. Play what suits your needs best. It seems obvious to me that most top symphony players use F-att instruments because they find it suits their needs better. If that's not your situation, then fine - play it straight. Why argue about it?

Happy and prosperous New Year to all!!! :good: :good: :good:
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 4490
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
Contact:

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by harrisonreed »

So opposed to valves that we must reinvent the tombone slide and give it even more bends so that we can be pure!

Oh, wait.
User avatar
sirisobhakya
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:04 pm
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Contact:

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by sirisobhakya »

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:28 am So opposed to valves that we must reinvent the tombone slide and give it even more bends so that we can be pure!

Oh, wait.
Bend(s) in the valve and in the valve wrap is generally tighter than the bend in slide crook, so the argument is still valid...

I think...
Chaichan Wiriyaswat
Bangkok, Thailand
“Why did I buy so many horns when I only have one mouth…?”
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 4490
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
Contact:

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by harrisonreed »

When so many people try out as many valves as possible because each one can have positive effects (or negative) on the resistance and response.
User avatar
LeTromboniste
Posts: 1019
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am
Location: Sion, CH

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by LeTromboniste »

BGuttman wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:36 am
LeTromboniste wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:25 am With a Bb valve?
No valve.
Then you can't play a Bartok gliss on it.
Maximilien Brisson
www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 5896
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by BGuttman »

Possibly, but if it was made in F it might do OK.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Mikebmiller
Posts: 871
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:13 am
Location: Spartanburg, SC

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by Mikebmiller »

BillO wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:12 am Why argue about it?
Because this is the Internet and that’s what people do :biggrin: :biggrin:
MStarke
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:33 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by MStarke »

Although this is an older discussion just some additional thoughts as I have been thinking about this as well...
Please note that I am NOT a professional anymore - which means I basically do what I want and what I like in trombone playing.

My current orchestral tenor is a replica of a historical German trombone - conical bore, large bell (regular tenor mutes are too small), no valve and no tuning slide.
I love the sound and response, tuning in itself is surprisingly good. It's probably as close to a German trombone as you can get. The sound is very very lively and adaptable.
However it does lack some flexibility due to the missing valve and is overall not the easiest trombone to play due to the missing tuning slide and being quite front-heavy.
Also as a sidenote it does not work at all with typical American mouthpieces, but very well with special German mouthpieces (playing a Klier Gössling moouthpiece on it).

I wouldn't worry at all about using it in any orchestral playing that I still do. It's normally not too demanding and also does not have many surprises. So the missing valve and tuning slide can be easily compensated and it's all about the sound.
But thinking about e.g. brass ensemble gigs - where the sound would also be great - I would be a bit nervous about using it. Anything that requires more notes to be played than typical orchestral charts, parts that have quick passages in the lower range and also potentially more sight-reading just isn't where I would feel comfortable with this trombone.

Therefor - as soon as budget allows it again - I will probably get a typical American tenor with f attachment again.
Quite possibly an 88h - or one of the old and good Blessing copies if I can find one.
Of course I could also get a German trombone with attachment, however I have a Kruspe with attachment available from a friend if needed and also the American tenor would just be even more variation to my collection ;-)
Markus Starke
https://www.mst-studio-mouthpieces.com/

Alto: Conn 35h, Kanstul, Weril
Tenor: 3x Conn 6h, Blessing medium, Elkhart 88H, modern 88HT, Greenhoe Conn 88HT, Kruspe, Heckel, Piering replica
Bass: Conn 112h, Greenhoe, Conn 60h
Tremozl
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:36 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by Tremozl »

Burgerbob wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:37 pm Here's another way to look at it... 85 percent of orchestral lit for the bass trombonist could be played on a single bass. Do we see those in orchestras? No.

I think it's a similar situation. As an orchestral player, I want to know the instrument I'm using very well. Constantly swapping back and forth is not really how to do that.
Having a Gb attachment allows a lot of flexibility and agility on bass, even if you don't need to play super low with both triggers down too often.
Tremozl
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:36 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Straight versus f-attachment

Post by Tremozl »

BGuttman wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:53 pm Possibly, but if it was made in F it might do OK.
F contra with double slide could definitely do Bartok, and the BBb contra can as well (though B is at the veeeery end of the slide. Most players will cite only 6 positions on the BBb contra but i can get the 7th.)

Off topic from the Bartok, after dicking around with my BBb contra paired with a Bass Bone slide (which puts it in Eb) I think an Eb contra with a Bb and C trigger would be a really free blowing horn with a bit better low range than the F. With the BBb style bell section it could even sound like a bigger horn too, rather than how the F's sound.
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”