Horns used by major symphonies

[PaulT]

When my son joined the N.D. National Guard Band, he was issued a Shires trumpet even though he had two great horns of his own that he really liked. The entire trumpet section plays, is asked/required to play, a government-issued Shires trumpet. Near as I can tell, this is the policy for all military bands. Band members are issued government horns, presumably the same brand for each band and each section. I am told this is, at least in part, to facilitate a blended sound. There may be, likely are, other reasons. (I know that the guys playing on the Guard's pay appreciate not having to risk damage to their personal horns).

Do the major symphonies (Boston, Cleveland, New York, Chicago, Minneapolis, ect) require/ask that the trombonists play the same brand of horn? Who decides? Is it true that Bach and Yamaha are the most commonly chosen trombones by major symphonies? By what percentage (ball park guesses accepted .

Or does each player chose his or her preferred horn?

Do Bach and Yamaha dominate?

(I have an impression, based on no personal knowledge whatsoever, that Bach is the aging king and Yamaha is the young challenger to the throne)

[BGuttman]

I don't think many Symphonies require a particular make of instrument. That said, given the differences in sound some brands won't win auditions.

At one time the Cleveland Orchestra required the trombones to use King / Benge instruments. The players would get specially made horns directly from King.

At one time the Chicago Symphony all played large Bach horns.

The brands that are winning auditions tend to be the "boutique" ones: Shires and Edwards. To some extent the orchestras are still looking for a Bach sound but are willing to accept other brands.

There are still pros playing Conn, Yamaha, and other brands.

The Service Bands do not want to insure personal instruments for damage during Government activities. Hence the requirement to use issued instruments. Given what I've heard about Shires trumpets, I'm surprised they went that way. Of course I wouldn't expect them to buy Monettes.

[Burgerbob]

The horn used is up to the section. If it works with the section then it is fine.

I'm not sure of many using a Yamaha in a top orchestra in the US. Ko-Ichiro uses one sometimes and David Finlayson uses one. I'm sure there are some around. Yeo and Crewe both used them in top orchestras.

[PaulT]

If I had to guess, and it most certainly a guess, my guess would be that when the time came for the North Dakota National Guard to get a batch of new Trumpets, they solicited bids from appropriate vendors for appropriate horns... and Shires (or the vendor supplying them) won the bid.

The horn is fine as far as Gus is concerned.

[harrisonreed]

Active duty Army at least doesn't have any such requirement. I play my personal horn on most gigs, and an issued 88H for any moving or ceremonial gigs.

[Savio]

I think this is a military thing. I remember we got one type of brand for marching and another for concert. They didn't want us to use our own horn. The symphonies is privat so people use what they want to get the job done. Isn't it so? Many use different equipment for different music.
Leif

[GabrielRice]

(I have an impression, based on no personal knowledge whatsoever, that Bach is the aging king and Yamaha is the young challenger to the throne)

This is true for trumpets, not so much for trombones. Orchestral trumpet sections in the US are dominated by Bach, with Yamaha rising significantly in about the last 15 years or so. In trombone sections you see more variety: a lot of Bach (though usually customized, rarely factory stock), Edwards, and Shires, some Conn but not as much as in decades past, some Courtois recently, and sprinklings of Yamaha and Rath.

It also tends to be more true that trumpet sections follow their principal and play the same make, though there are trombone sections that work together with a manufacturer to come up with a set of instruments that make each individual happy and make the blend very easy.

[bcschipper]

Since trumpet sections were also mentioned: Why do we see hardly any rotary trumpets in the US?

[LeTromboniste]

Since trumpet sections were also mentioned: Why do we see hardly any rotary trumpets in the US?

You do see then in German repertoire. In many cases the players don't own rotary, but the orchestra itself owns a set. Same for German trombones, although not as common.

By why you don't see it as much is cultural. Nobody in North America starts or learns on rotary. They might have contact with rotaries in college / university if the school owns a set, but it usually comes after piston Bb, C, Eb, piccolo and maybe even cornet on the purchase list of most young players.

[GabrielRice]

Since trumpet sections were also mentioned: Why do we see hardly any rotary trumpets in the US?

I see them a lot for Classical and Romantic repertoire around New England. Most of my trumpet colleagues either own one or have access to one.

[CalgaryTbone]

Since trumpet sections were also mentioned: Why do we see hardly any rotary trumpets in the US?

Not quite the US (Canada), but my orchestra uses rotary trumpets for the Germanic repertoire almost exclusively - Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, and even Bruckner, Strauss and Mahler.

Most of the top 10 major orchestras do the same, although some prefer to stick with piston trumpets for the big stuff like Mahler. Our orchestra owns a couple of the rotary trumpets, but mostly, the players have their own that they use.

The good German/Austrian trumpets are fairly expensive. They are produced mostly by hand, in smaller shops by top craftsmen, and are priced accordingly.

When I was a student, rotary trumpets were rare in N. America, and you only really saw them in a couple of the larger orchestras, but in the years since then they have become pretty much standard fare for professional orchestras. There are also a few places where German trombones are being used on some of that literature to better match the trumpets.

Jim Scott

[Leanit]

In the days of big bands, a horn maker would contract with a band to get the whole section to play Bach or King or Conn or whatever. Guys got free/cheap horns, and maybe a couple bucks to pose for a picture for an advertisement touting, "As played by the entire Buddy Morrow Orchestra!"

But most guys had their own favorite, and would take two horns on the road. One to play, and the sponsor's horn to pull out for pictures or when the factory rep had a table in the front row.

[paulyg]

Like others have said, often de-facto standards are more important than explicitly enforced rules.

I understand that in order to win a bassoon audition at a high level, a player MUST own a Heckel (and front the ~$30K). A new, fully outfitted Heckel costs ~60K euros and comes with a 6-8 year waiting period.

[PaulT]

A clarification:

I just talked with Gus about this again, and he said they can use their own horns if they want to, the guys in his troop have all just chosen to use the horns the Guard gives them... not because they are concerned with a "blended" sound but because they have all been told the story of when the bus backed over both of the former commander's personal horns, crushing them.

[BGuttman]

Unless the Guard gives them real junk, it probably behooves the guys to use the Government supplied instruments. The Government will make sure they are in good repair and will replace if needed when on hazardous service (like parades).

[hyperbolica]

When I was in the Navy bands in the late '80s, we were issued Bach trombones, 42, 36, 50, maybe some small bores too like 8 or 12 because we did a lot of jazz bands and show bands, as well as a 6 month Unitas tour (shipboard tours of South America and Africa) for show/jazz combo/rock band. I think the trumpets were Bach as well. I had a Navy issued Willson euphonium. I would use my own 88h for highly controlled settings like quartet/quintet, but my Navy issue Bach for stage band, marching, ceremonies, tours, and other risky stuff. Our band had a repairman for Navy issue instruments. I had no complaints with the Navy issue hardware.

[BrassedOn]

In the days of big bands, a horn maker would contract with a band to get the whole section to play Bach or King or Conn or whatever. Guys got free/cheap horns, and maybe a couple bucks to pose for a picture for an advertisement touting, "As played by the entire Buddy Morrow Orchestra!"

When I showed up for the Dorsey Band lead by Morrow in the 1990s, he was pleased to see my King3b. He had his main King and 2 spares in the hold of the old Silver Eagle “Wrong Bus”.

On the military side, aside from the DC and other primo bands, band members may be doing the load in and out. Even with the anvil cases, that’s not something you want to subject your personal horn to. Things move fast and sometimes get dropped off lifts. Most played Bach 16 or 36 when doing ceremonial. Wilson Euphs.

[timbone]

As a former military musician and also being involved in the buying process, most bands are buying based on the input of the players and repair personnel- a good part of that is cost measures/bids and sometimes contracts, but also it has to do with musician draw and retention. Yes durability is very important and I would say there are many good choices out there and lets not rule out also what the actual buyers likes are (if they are trpt players buying trpts). Years ago I asked a question to a tech assistance staff in a general meeting and asked why all the program buys is Ludwig drums (as a drummer I was interested in Tama and Gretch) and the answer I got was "because that's what Mr. B wants" And Mr B being a FORMER drummer stopped playing years ago and took a desk job but was now running the show. And product hype wins out a lot too. I recall getting bad batches of instruments from a big name manufacturer only because THEY KNEW they would not have to deal with them with all the contractual government stuff.....and finally- a lot of times the service bands get "dump money" and have to use it or loose it. There are many scenarios......

[harrisonreed]

In the days of big bands, a horn maker would contract with a band to get the whole section to play Bach or King or Conn or whatever. Guys got free/cheap horns, and maybe a couple bucks to pose for a picture for an advertisement touting, "As played by the entire Buddy Morrow Orchestra!"

When I showed up for the Dorsey Band lead by Morrow in the 1990s, he was pleased to see my King3b. He had his main King and 2 spares in the hold of the old Silver Eagle “Wrong Bus”.

On the military side, aside from the DC and other primo bands, band members may be doing the load in and out. Even with the anvil cases, that’s not something you want to subject your personal horn to. Things move fast and sometimes get dropped off lifts. Most played Bach 16 or 36 when doing ceremonial. Wilson Euphs.

I think I've seen exactly one (1) Bach 16 and one (1) Bach 36 being used in the Army since 2013, and only in jazz combos -- never in a ceremony. Bach 42s, 88Hs, Yamahas, and King 2Bs are the rule, though a lot of Shires and Edwards are also being played.

one Rath. One Thein (in a NOLA brass band, personally owned instrument, I was scratchin my head)

[GBP]

The horn used is up to the section. If it works with the section then it is fine.

I'm not sure of many using a Yamaha in a top orchestra in the US. Ko-Ichiro uses one sometimes and David Finlayson uses one. I'm sure there are some around. Yeo and Crewe both used them in top orchestras.

Ko is now an Edwards artist, I believe.