Shires Bass problems

[aasavickas]

've finally gotten around to really learning my bass trigger alternates. The Bolliger book is fantastic. I highly recommend it.

My question is how do you tune your valve? I think my horn is incapable to be tuned the way I intended to tune it.

Sad story of Shires blowing it.

The Shires guys kinda blew it 2 times on my horn. I love the true bore valves. But when I ordered it and requested the Bollinger 1/4 G tuning set up, they told me they knew how to do it. I even tried to give them the measurements of the length of the tubes but they cut me off and said they knew how to do it. Turns out, at the time, they did not. They buggered it up. When I got the horn since I was new to playing bass, I figured my tuning problems with the second valve were caused by chop issues as a result of being a tenor player before because surely the Shires guys know what they are doing. Turns out they don't or didn't at the time. They messed up the slide length on the second valve and didn't notice and sent it to me.

So after about a year(maybe a little longer) of playing on it and deciding they just messed it up, I called and talked to them. They said since I have had it so long I would have to pay to ship it to them and pay them to fix it. Supposedly they gave me a discount after I argued with them about it. So I had to pay about $400 which they said was about half price to repair their mistake. I thought this was bad of them but I liked the valve so much and the are the only one who makes it so what can I do. I can forgive making a mistake, everybody is human but to not offer to pay to fix their mistake is just plain shitty customer service for a very expensive top the market priced horn.

They cut the valve but only as far as they could without moving a brace(a lazy fix and obviously inferior choice of fixing the thing). They cut the tube down so much the tuning slide can only be moved about 1 cm and it is still just a little out of tune and cannot be pushed in any more to make it tune the way I want. So, they have screwed up on this thing 2 times.

I'm either going to send it to a competent repair guy or just sell it and get another horn. I recently picked up an Edwards and really liked the Rotax valve so I might pick up an Edwards bass with those.

There are just too many high quality professional horns on the market to bother paying this much and getting a horn that cannot be tuned the way it was intended. It is too bad because I used to really like Shires horns. And 20 years ago they might have been making the best horns. Today, I think many folks are making horns that are as good as theirs but Shires has let quality slip and in this instance really offered garbage customer service. In other words, others caught up and they lost ground. Granted this is only one horn but after playing the price of a good used car for a horn, the thing ought to at least be able to be played in tune.

[harrisonreed]

If you didn't buy this:

https://www.seshires.com/tbbo

...then I'm not surprised you didn't get what you wanted. They make a model for Bollinger and his tuning system. Buying some other type of bass and asking for it to be modded and cut down when they already sell what you want seems pretty dumb.

If you did indeed buy the Bollinger horn, and asked for it to be cut down .... that also seems dumb.

I can't see another option of dumbness, as you were asking for the thing to be cut down sight unseen.

The smart options are:

1. Buy the Bollinger model sight unseen (yikes), and do a proper playtest within a week of receiving your purchase. If you don't know how to identify if your horn has Bollinger tuning, then this playtest period is meaningless, and you probably should be asking yourself why you are experimenting with something that is so expensive and that you don't understand.

2. Go to Shires, and buy exactly what you want. I guarantee the staff would show you exactly how tge tuning system works and be able to demonstrate that what you are about to purchase is indeed the correct Bollinger system, even if you are having them mod a standard valve set.

[Matt K]

Yeah, I gotta side with Shires on this one. Custom stuff needs to be verified when you get it --- I've ordered a number of custom things from various makers and nobody has a perfect track record when deviating from the standard production stuff. That includes techs and manufacturers of all varieties (horns, components, mouthpieces, etc.). Some are slightly better than others, but nobody should be above having it verified. If you do go through with Edwards, same thing. If you don't think it's right, have someone in the area double check it. I'd say the window of reasonable argumentation ends around 30 days after you get whatever that thing is. Some companies are more generous about it but certainly a year or more is outside of that window.

The reason they didn't move your brace is because in order to get down to G tuning, you actually need to have the whole assembly narrowed, including a new tuning slide. If you don't do that, as you discovered, the tuning slide doesn't have much room to expand. Or you won't get the pitch down far enough. Most Gb tuning slides are the same width or very close to the F attachment width. And it makes sense for them to be, because then you don't bump stuff behind you (the length is compensated for with additional width.

Also, please curb your language here. This is your first offense, so no harm, I'll edit that out --- but we try to be a place that is welcoming to students of all ages and a place that teachers can very safely recommend their students to visit.

[Mv2541]

Perhaps their choice to not move the brace was to not alter the blow of the horn as a whole. Also the real Bollinger 2nd valve slide only has a tiny bit of room to be pulled out, so I don't think that is an issue. They do make the trubores in Bollinger tuning; I'm pretty sure there's a YouTube video where you can see one. I would also bet they would have fixed the problem without charge if you did not wait until a solid year after the sale.

Also what are you using to tune that valve? For me I have the 2nd slide all the way in and play B in slightly flat 4 (the same as D in the bass staff).

[Burgerbob]

I have another friend that had a similar issue with Trubores in Bollinger tuning. This is not an isolated case.

[Omeednymanbasstrombone]

Hey!

So I study with Blair, and I've addressed this issue with him because both him and I have ordered Trubores recently that have been out of whack.

It turns out his specific horn that he got was a prototype and they adjusted the way the horn was made with trubores to increase resonance and countless things I won't understand, but end point, that turned out making the second valve slide slightly too long, so the stock models they have with his tuning on Trubores is too long, and they're currently addressing the issue right now. As for those who it works for, that might be because your center of pitch is just higher than all of ours, lucky you guys.


All in all the issue is just a hiccup in numbers and how its being made down at shires, ever since the move happened things are turning for the worse, but I hope this clears things up. It's not just you, even Blair had the same issue!!

[blast]

So there is an issue at present. Perhaps the OP should have been more calm and reasoned in his approach, but it now seems that those that jumped on him were at fault too.
Cool heads please.

Chris

[harrisonreed]

Truth. Sowwy. Sounds like shires should have fixed the prototype first.

...

Actually, I retract this comment. See below:

[harrisonreed]

Gabe posted and then retracted, and he was right too.

Bummer that Shires would ship a "Bollinger" trubore that is basically a wonky prototype, but the OP still should have figured it out within the trial period. Even then, since it was already modded prior to shipping, it probably was not covered by a return policy. This wasn't a Bollinger branded trubore, but a trubore bass where the OP was trying to explain to Shires how short to cut it ... to make it Bollinger tuned ... when he didn't really know how to test or play a Bolinger tuned instrument ... which Shires already makes ... and seem to not be able to do with trubores ....

This whole story is crazy. The prototype sounds botched. The OP ordered something he really didn't know how to use. Was it modded, or actually a real Bollinger Trubore section? How could the shop miss that the tuning for this setup was messed up, multiple times? I thought every complete horn would be playtested before shipment.

There's gotta be more to this than this weird story.

[mrdeacon]

The way Shires makes the trubores sets isn't the most elegant... When I had my dependent set there was definitely some corners cut on how that wrap was made. Odd bracing choices and IMO poorly designed linkages. Still... It played well!

That said...

I think harrisonreed is right. We aren't getting the whole story here... Shires has made a Bollinger Thayer model for years I find it hard to believe they'd mess it up that bad.

[Matt K]

I believe it; and I'd believe it coming out of any shop. There's a lot that goes into shipping a completed valve section... easy to get wires crossed so to speak. Especially with something that was a custom piece (5 years ago... was Bollinger an artist even? They might not have made it at the time... could have been one of the first ones attempted to be made with the tuning). Or actually... I'm seeing 1 yr year but in the other thread, OP mentioned 5 years so there's either something that I'm overlooking or a discrepancy.

In either case, I didn't intend to be overbearing in my initial post - just indicate that the story didn't seem that ridiculous to me. Mistakes happen in every factory and happen particularly when you deviate from the stock options. And in my personal experience a lot of times the problem is because I haven't communicated something as clearly as I thought I had. (JGittleson is my current victim ). So for something like that: trust, but verify!

[Jgittleson]

I believe it; and I'd believe it coming out of any shop. There's a lot that goes into shipping a completed valve section... easy to get wires crossed so to speak. Especially with something that was a custom piece (5 years ago... was Bollinger an artist even? They might not have made it at the time... could have been one of the first ones attempted to be made with the tuning). Or actually... I'm seeing 1 yr year but in the other thread, OP mentioned 5 years so there's either something that I'm overlooking or a discrepancy.

In either case, I didn't intend to be overbearing in my initial post - just indicate that the story didn't seem that ridiculous to me. Mistakes happen in every factory and happen particularly when you deviate from the stock options. And in my personal experience a lot of times the problem is because I haven't communicated something as clearly as I thought I had. (JGittleson is my current victim ). So for something like that: trust, but verify!

Who, me? fyi Matt's ideas are definitely tough to follow at times ( may take explaining 2-3 times), but probably the most patient customer ever!

I didn't read everything, but its impossible to get the setup with bollinger tuning right without a narrower crook. Shires makes great horns, but the customer service, and on my end getting parts from them, is terrible. I had a customer talk to me about repairing her shires today and i cringed, because i knew I'd rather put my teeth out than get on the hamster wheel trying to get parts.

My 2 cents, just have someone make a new wrap. Should you have you deal with this? No. But in the end you'll be happy and theres a value to that. The easiest crook to use is off a conn bass (112?). Its narrow enough, and the right bore. Its not a big job, but you will need new lacquer afterwards.

[aasavickas]

Fair enough comments. I appreciate the honest take. I'll try to clear up a few of the questions.

I think I am explaining the story how it happened. It has been a few years so I'm sure got some of the details wrong.

I was thinking about it again because the tuning problem is really starting to bug me. I've been spending more time on Bass and am considering getting an Edwards or some other manufacturer. I can understand that even a solid company makes mistakes. It happens. The part that bothered me was that I paid a large sum of money for a new horn. They assured me they new what I asked for. I trusted them to do what they said they would do. When they failed, rather than making it right and fixing the mistake, they charged me have them "fix" their mistake and then failed to fix it with a second chance.

It is the poor customer service that bothered me. If I bought a cheap Chinese horn and had this issue, I would just say 'you get what you pay for and what did you expect'. But this is not a cheap Chinese horn. It is an expense boutique horn from an experienced brand. I have played their horns professionally for about 15 years and purchased 4 of them over that time. I've been selling them over the years because I have found some other horns that did more of what I want them to do. No animus in the change, just picking the right tool for the job.

But with this bass, I am planning on finding a valve that I like as much as the trubore and am not willing to give them another chance to have me pay them to mess up and then not fix the problem. Again, I think they are good folks and generally make good horns. But I really am starting to wonder about their quality control and at least in one instance, they treated me in a way that has made be decide to take my business elsewhere. Right tool for the job, and the tool they are selling is objectively not right.

When I bought the horn the Bollinger book had come out and he has been playing for a long career so people knew what he was describing. His book even has a picture of what he is talking about with measurements for the slide length. So, this information was out there. I tried to explain it and, over the phone, the guy cut me off and said something like, "oh yeah we have made that plenty of times we know how to make it. I wasn't asking for some strange experimental custom mod.

They came out with a Bollinger model a few years after I ordered mine but it uses Axial valves and I really liked the trubores better.

As far as the length of the play test, I agree that having the horn for such a long time before asking them to try to fix it would put it out of the initial warranty period. Which is why I agreed to pay them the 400 to fix it. From a business perspective, the right thing to do would be to fix the issue and maybe only charge me shipping. If that happened I would have posted about how great the horn is and tell people about how they are a good group and you should look into buying a horn from them. From a legal perspective, and I would have to read the warranty more carefully to be sure, but they probably have a standard manufacturer defect warranty. This was clearly a manufacturing defect. From a legal perspective, if I were more litigious, I would bring a case for breach of warranty and would probably win.(I happen to be a lawyer, so feel free to think I am wrong, but I have actually studied tort and contract law so I am one of those informed idiots Never considered it and wouldn't do that. I would prefer to just buy from somebody else next time.

To be clear, I think they are good guys, who made a mistake one time with one customer. I suspect they have had additional quality problems when they almost went bankrupt and were bought by a parent company. Cutting corners and/or maybe good people leaving is bound to happen. That is just suspicion and not a statement of a fact. It sounds like some folks on here may have had quality problems as well.

My purpose in posting this story is that most musicians are not rich people that can throw around over $5,000 bucks on a new horn that cannot play in tune as intended. I would say that if you buy a horn, even from a reputable maker like Shires, do not assume they did it correctly and that any problems are with you. If the horn does not play correctly to your liking send it back right away and don't bother asking them to try to fix it. Just send it back and try something else.

As always, caveat emptor.

[aasavickas]

If any repair guys out there want to help me out with fixing the second valve wrap, please send me a PM and we can talk about what it might take and cost to get this thing working.

Thanks