Why didn't detachable trombone bells catch on?

[aasavickas]

Detachable trombone bells seem like such a good idea for practical reasons like having a smaller more protective case. Further, the extra weight on the bell might provide some good opportunities to solidify the sound at higher volumes.

It seems like detachable bells are much more common for french horns but it seems like they are exceedingly rare for trombones. I think Shires has a model or two with detachable bells but I've never seen one in the wild.

I've never played one so I suppose there could be problems with the sound of the bell or possibly some problems with the physical balance of the horn if the weight is too far forward.

Any folks out there tried one?

What are your thoughts on the sound and feel of the horn?

[harrisonreed]

They aren't exceedingly rare -- Shires offers a screw bell horn as a production instrument that is pretty popular.

A french horn bell is huge and makes the case way bigger and oddly shaped than a screwbell french horn.

Even with a screwbell, a trombone is long and bulky. Sure, it'd be easier to fly with a screwbell trombone, but it doesn't REALLY save you all that much space. The reward isn't really worth it unless you just have gotta fly with your horn in the overhead no matter what.

There are some who say the screwbell makes a horn play better. It probably does change the response of a bell, but so do interchangeable bells, counterweights, harmonic pillars, and wrapping the bell throat in leather or duct tape -- all of which are removeable. A screwbell is kind of permanent. "Better" is not an objective thing you can measure.

There's been a lot of traffic here lately about screw bells ... I don't get it though. Such a drastic thing to do for really not much benefit. 99% of the time I wouldn't want to have to screw and unscrew my bell just to get the horn in and out of my case so I'd already need at least two cases for one horn, and a Tank flight case would cost less than getting the bell cut AND buying a separate screwbell case to fit my "improved" trombone.

[jacobgarchik]

"it doesn't REALLY save you all that much space"

This is not true. It does save you quite a bit of space and is often, on smaller planes, the difference between fitting in the overhead and not.

They are catching on now!

[harrisonreed]

Right, it helps with flying, which you do with your trombone not even 1% of the time, even if you are Christian Lindberg in 1993. Otherwise the case is still at least a meter long.

[hyperbolica]

I think they haven't been more popular because of the cost and weight. I had one for a while, and although I liked how it played and stored in the case, it was an extra strep assembling the horn every time it came out of the case and it threw the balance way off. Eventually I sold it for someone else to enjoy.

[2bobone]

I owned a Conn 70H that I acquired from the retiring bass trombonist of The National Symphony Orchestra that he referred to as a "Coffey Model" [John Coffey ?] that had THREE detachable bells ! At the same time I had a conventional 70H to compare. There was no contest ----- the conventional horn walked all over the detachable bell horn. I cannot recall the sizes of the three bells, but the smallest was about 8 inches, so I suppose the other two were 9 and 9 1/2 inches. The smallest was useless in my opinion and even with the largest bell mounted, the horn was rather lifeless in character. The only real use that the horn ever got was when the NSO was doing some Wagner concert piece that called for an off-stage "Steir Horn" part. I imagine it was intended to be played by something like a "shofar" used in Jewish religious services. By removing the bell entirely from the horn, we managed to achieve the sound that the conductor [Antal Dorati] was looking for. I sold it to someone whom I've forgotten the name of, but I never regretted parting with it. I'm sure that more modern versions are far better than my old "Coffey Model" !

[jacobgarchik]

I don't think the price is that big of an obstacle. $500 doesn't seem like a big deal in the era of "boutique" trombones that are generally thousands of dollars more than perfectly adequate used instruments. A used Bach or Conn + screw bell conversion + case is still quite a bit less money than a Shires or a Rath.
If screw bells play worse in general, why are they so common among French Horn players?
Sure, if you drive everywhere and don't care about throwing a huge bulky case in your trunk, maybe case size isn't an issue. It's an issue for me!

[Bonearzt]

It's not necessarily the length that creates storage issues, it's the flare of the case on the bell end that makes it more difficult to fit in the overhead.
French horn screw bell cases are MUCH more compact & easier to carry than the regular case.
Same with trombone screw bells!! Flat cases are easier to deal with and the slight inconvenience of assembling the bell is minor.
True, they aren't for everyone, but that's the case with EVERY trombone in existence!!!!!

Eric

[Burgerbob]

The length of a screwbell case is the same as any violin or viola case. They don't usually have trouble getting it on the plane.

[norbie2018]

What intrigues me is the Lawler trombone and the ability to mix and match different bell stems and bell flares. I imagine that would make a difference on how the horn responds and sounds. Unfortunately, he doesn't make large bore horns and I'm not interested in smaller instruments.

[JohnL]

If screw bells play worse in general, why are they so common among French Horn players?

For a horn player, the investment in a cut bell pays significant dividends pretty much any time they have to pick up the horn and go anywhere. I see it every week - Tuesday night, my wife plays a fixed bell horn and loading all our gear into the trunk is a chore. Wednesday night, she plays a cut bell horn and everything goes in neat as you please, even though there's an extra backpack full of music. Just carrying a cut bell case is less hassle; your leg doesn't bump into the bell every other step and you're far less likely to bump things as you go by.

As far as acoustics? Between the brace and the player's hand, a horn bell is pretty well damped (even more so if they rest the bell rim on their leg while playing). On a trombone, there's a significant length of the bell that is free to resonate. The addition of a ring will change the way the bell resonates. Even if it doesn't directly change the sound downrange (a point of discussion for another day), it changes the feedback to the player.

[RJMason]

The screwbell trombone is incredibly useful. I find a ring on a lighter weight bell helps enhance projection. I’ve also felt that a screw bell on a heavier bell didn’t do as much, but maybe hindered the horn a bit.

For traveling it is a no brainer:

The flat case is so useful for getting on smaller planes and European airlines. Especially if you have a carry on suitcase—often gate agents will want you to check your suitcase and just bring on the trombone on a full flight, and if you’re in a rush to get to soundcheck that can be a pain.

Also, while a small tenor reunion blues/chronkite gig bag can generally fit in even a small regional jet overhead (usually protec, Eastman and MB hard cases will not), you are smushing the case, worrying if someone will try to cram their things and smash your bell, and are generally stressed out until your horn is secured and the plane is boarded. A hard shell flat case gives you peace of mind and is easy to hide behind a backpack or coat if you are flying on a stingy small international airline that doesn’t understand your horn will be destroyed if you check it.

A TANK case is heavy and cumbersome and if you don’t have a tech or a production truck shipping it everywhere, it doesn’t make sense to me personally. Flying domestic in the US, if you don’t have status or don’t fly southwest you have to pay $25 to check it every flight. 10 round trips in, the conversion pays for itself in the fees you’re avoiding paying.

The length doesn’t matter, a flat screwbell case will fit length wise even in Asian airline overheads that have more height than length. It’s essentially a viola case.

Most people own a hard case AND a gig bag, so I would use the flat case for airline travel (last year I was on tour for 9 month’s flying at least 3 times a week, way more than 1% of the time, currently about 40% of my work is weekend fly trips out of town) and the lawler case is indispensible. Then for local gigs just keep the bell screwed on and use a gig bag.

[jacobgarchik]

I've been playing them for 10 years, alongside non-cut horns. The difference is negligible and the gains from the case are worth it.

[TheSheriff]

What intrigues me is the Lawler trombone and the ability to mix and match different bell stems and bell flares. I imagine that would make a difference on how the horn responds and sounds. Unfortunately, he doesn't make large bore horns and I'm not interested in smaller instruments.

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Regarding the Lawler screwbell.

Putting a flare of different material, or the same material but different gauge and different diameter or a different bead makes a big difference in how the horn sounds, feels, and responds. The advantage is the much lower cost as compared to a detachable bell section, not to mention storage is very easy with multiple flares. I have 4 flares for my Lawler trombones, and they all have their place in my arsenal.

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[TheSheriff]

They aren't exceedingly rare -- Shires offers a screw bell horn as a production instrument that is pretty popular.

A french horn bell is huge and makes the case way bigger and oddly shaped than a screwbell french horn.

Even with a screwbell, a trombone is long and bulky. Sure, it'd be easier to fly with a screwbell trombone, but it doesn't REALLY save you all that much space. The reward isn't really worth it unless you just have gotta fly with your horn in the overhead no matter what.

There are some who say the screwbell makes a horn play better. It probably does change the response of a bell, but so do interchangeable bells, counterweights, harmonic pillars, and wrapping the bell throat in leather or duct tape -- all of which are removeable. A screwbell is kind of permanent. "Better" is not an objective thing you can measure.

There's been a lot of traffic here lately about screw bells ... I don't get it though. Such a drastic thing to do for really not much benefit. 99% of the time I wouldn't want to have to screw and unscrew my bell just to get the horn in and out of my case so I'd already need at least two cases for one horn, and a Tank flight case would cost less than getting the bell cut AND buying a separate screwbell case to fit my "improved" trombone.

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This is how I see it and do it with my Lawler screwbell.

For me, I choose the flare I want to use on the gig and put the assembled horn in a standard trombone case. Done. No muss no fuss. I'd think most of us pro players have plenty of cases and other trombone gear, so I do not see a screwbell as a disadvantage but a huge advantage for the change of character a different flare can provide. Granted, most guys will end up having a favorite flare, and end up playing one flare more than another. But!! Every once in a while changing to a different flare changes the game and can ignite ones creative juices. It does for me.

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[TheSheriff]

If screw bells play worse in general, why are they so common among French Horn players?

For a horn player, the investment in a cut bell pays significant dividends pretty much any time they have to pick up the horn and go anywhere. I see it every week - Tuesday night, my wife plays a fixed bell horn and loading all our gear into the trunk is a chore. Wednesday night, she plays a cut bell horn and everything goes in neat as you please, even though there's an extra backpack full of music. Just carrying a cut bell case is less hassle; your leg doesn't bump into the bell every other step and you're far less likely to bump things as you go by.

As far as acoustics? Between the brace and the player's hand, a horn bell is pretty well damped (even more so if they rest the bell rim on their leg while playing). On a trombone, there's a significant length of the bell that is free to resonate. The addition of a ring will change the way the bell resonates. Even if it doesn't directly change the sound downrange (a point of discussion for another day), it changes the feedback to the player.

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Changing to a different flare on my Lawler screwbell changes the feedback to me, the player. All 4 of my Lawler flares provide me with different feedback, which is no different to me than changing mouthpieces or lead pipes. Different components provide different feedback. To me, no big deal. It's the same as changing horns. Different horn, different everything. Again, to me, no big deal. If you like it, you like it. I like all of my horns because they suit me and are excellent in their own unique way.

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[Jgittleson]

Though ive never owned one, the idea of detachable flares is very attractive to me. First is the portability bonus, which granted, is huge. But the ability to have custom flares, and if there's ever damage to the flare or stem, being able to just repair/swap out that part is really awesome.

Ive only seen one done, on a shires bell, but if its an accurate representation of a typical ring thats used, i can say with 100% certainty, they could be designed much more svelte, and still do the job reliably.

[TromboneMonkey]

Changing to a different flare on my Lawler screwbell changes the feedback to me, the player. All 4 of my Lawler flares provide me with different feedback, which is no different to me than changing mouthpieces or lead pipes. Different components provide different feedback. To me, no big deal. It's the same as changing horns. Different horn, different everything. Again, to me, no big deal. If you like it, you like it. I like all of my horns because they suit me and are excellent in their own unique way.

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Do you have one of the bronze flares? If so how does it play?

[RJMason]

I had a bronze flare on the Lawler and it changed the sound quite a bit. The bronze was my “Easter gig” flare. I put it on and sounded so symphonic I could bring a .500 to church and sound like a light orchestral horn. An amazing switch that helped facilitate the small number of gigs that required that sound. The detachable flare for sound concepts and in case another flare is damaged is huge. My yellow brass Lawler flare got banged up by a fellow horn section mate and luckily I had the others to keep me going and sound great while opening my ear to other creative options sonically.

[TheSheriff]

Changing to a different flare on my Lawler screwbell changes the feedback to me, the player. All 4 of my Lawler flares provide me with different feedback, which is no different to me than changing mouthpieces or lead pipes. Different components provide different feedback. To me, no big deal. It's the same as changing horns. Different horn, different everything. Again, to me, no big deal. If you like it, you like it. I like all of my horns because they suit me and are excellent in their own unique way.

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Do you have one of the bronze flares? If so how does it play?

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Yes, I have an .025 8" bronze flare and I like it very much. It is, for me, the perfect flare for church gigs. Very even from top to bottom and leans towards a legit sound. I think. I'm about as far from being a legit player as one can get. So......... Roy is now offering an .022 bronze flare and I may pick one up. I really like the bronze.

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