Help with choosing large bore?

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araeed
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Help with choosing large bore?

Post by araeed » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:26 am

I am struggling to choose between purchasing these four horns, any recommendations, opinions or tidbits of info you have on these types of trombones would be greatly appreciated!

Yamaha YSL 882O
Yamaha YSL 882OR
Courtois Legend 420B (Hagmann Valve)
Conn 88H from 1971 - 1972 (Replaced Gen II slide)
Bach 42BOF

Thanks!
Last edited by araeed on Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Matt K
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Matt K » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:51 am

Technically those are four horns (the differences between the 0 and OR are more than just the wrap) - and they are not really much alike on paper. What do you like and not like about any of those horns? They're all possibly really great horns. I 'd probably go for the 882OR on that list because its the most similar horn to the one I play... but if I was going for horns generally that are in that price range, I'd buy a Shires Q because its even close to the horn I already play and know I like.
wwright
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by wwright » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:52 am

I have a Courtois Legend 420BHR/W and it's fantastic. Very free-blowing and a little brighter than the 42B it replaced. I think it retails for significantly more than the other ones you list, so it might be a good deal if the prices are comparable.
Crazytrombonist505
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Crazytrombonist505 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:09 am

+1 on the Yamaha 882OR. I have one as my main tenor, and I love it! It’s a great horn for the money imo.
Kbiggs
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Kbiggs » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:39 am

What does your current teacher recommend?

Are you planning to pursue trombone playing at a college or university? If so, what does that instructor/professor recommend?

If you’ve had the chance to play them, which do you feel most comfortable on, and which do you sound best on? If you don’t have the opportunity to try before you buy, that’s life. If you do, then play the same etude, excerpt, or passage on all four horns and do an A:B or 1:1 comparison and contrast. That will probably help you more than any recommendations here on TC will.
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
Posaunus
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Posaunus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:01 pm

If the Conn 88H is the one from Greenbean, it would be a good choice. I treasure my 71/72 88H, and Greenbean is supplying his with a newer, smoother slide. He is honest and fair. And the price is reasonable. If (for some reason) it doesn't suit you, it is readily resalable - though I predict you'll love it. What's not to like?
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Trav1s
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Trav1s » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:27 pm

Of your list, I'd say consider the 88H and the 882O but those are the horns that work for me. I am not a fan of the wide slide on large bore tenors.

If the 882O and 882OR are new, I would also encourage you to check out the YSL-882. I found no difference between the closed wrap 882 and the open wrap 882O and 882OR. Short of going to a modular horn, the 882 was one of my two "wow" playing experiences of ITF along with the Latzsch S-240.
1969 79H with Rotax conversion
1972 80H (78H with 8" red brass bell)
1974 77H Connquest project
1939 Conn 32H Burkle
Besson 8-10 x2
davebb
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by davebb » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:35 pm

Richard Begel has a few Xeno comparison videos on youtube....


araeed
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by araeed » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:37 pm

davebb wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:35 pm
Richard Begel has a few Xeno comparison videos on youtube....
Thanks for the vids! Helped a ton!
araeed
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by araeed » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Trav1s wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:27 pm
Of your list, I'd say consider the 88H and the 882O but those are the horns that work for me. I am not a fan of the wide slide on large bore tenors.

If the 882O and 882OR are new, I would also encourage you to check out the YSL-882. I found no difference between the closed wrap 882 and the open wrap 882O and 882OR. Short of going to a modular horn, the 882 was one of my two "wow" playing experiences of ITF along with the Latzsch S-240.
Great advice! I'll keep that in mind, thanks a lot for replying!
araeed
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by araeed » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:47 pm

Kbiggs wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:39 am
What does your current teacher recommend?

Are you planning to pursue trombone playing at a college or university? If so, what does that instructor/professor recommend?

If you’ve had the chance to play them, which do you feel most comfortable on, and which do you sound best on? If you don’t have the opportunity to try before you buy, that’s life. If you do, then play the same etude, excerpt, or passage on all four horns and do an A:B or 1:1 comparison and contrast. That will probably help you more than any recommendations here on TC will.
Thanks a ton for replying! My current private teacher is a huge Conn fan, so she is more inclined towards the 88H. However, other mentors have been speaking highly of the Yamaha's. Do you know anything much about Courtois horns?
araeed
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by araeed » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:52 pm

Matt K wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:51 am
Technically those are four horns (the differences between the 0 and OR are more than just the wrap) - and they are not really much alike on paper. What do you like and not like about any of those horns? They're all possibly really great horns. I 'd probably go for the 882OR on that list because its the most similar horn to the one I play... but if I was going for horns generally that are in that price range, I'd buy a Shires Q because its even close to the horn I already play and know I like.
Hey there, thanks for replying!

Do you know any differences the slide width between the O and OR make in terms of sound? I have heard that the OR offers a wider slide compared to the O model?.
Carolus
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Carolus » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:35 am

I really would look beyond the specifications of the four horns you are considering. Clearly there are horns with different design philosophies and sound tendencies. You really should not care much about what we on the forum think about a certain horn and how we verbalize the sound characteristics of the horn. What matters is how you want to sound, and how you perceive that the horns are either helping you to achieve the sound or alternative form an obstacle to you sounding your best. Your teacher obviously will have a big influence on your sound and will be a model for your sound like it or not. This means you should also seriously consider the input from your teacher Also pay attention to the ergonomic properties of the horn. You need to be physically comfortable while playing your horn, discomfort will over time translate negatively to your playing.

I personally play a Courtois Legend 420BH. I love my horn, I am a big fan of the Hagmann and the horn delivers what I need in the settings I play it. Is it the right choice for you? Honestly, I have no clue. Have fun choosing a horn, and remember that the player makes the horn sound good and not vice-versa!
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Mauriescalonaarg
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Mauriescalonaarg » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:27 am

Hello I would go for the courtois but I think that to choose you must have in your head what sound you want to have, the weight of the instrument, if you want to have a horn that blows free or has a little resistance
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Matt K
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Matt K » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:21 am

araeed wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:52 pm
Matt K wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:51 am
Technically those are four horns (the differences between the 0 and OR are more than just the wrap) - and they are not really much alike on paper. What do you like and not like about any of those horns? They're all possibly really great horns. I 'd probably go for the 882OR on that list because its the most similar horn to the one I play... but if I was going for horns generally that are in that price range, I'd buy a Shires Q because its even close to the horn I already play and know I like.
Hey there, thanks for replying!

Do you know any differences the slide width between the O and OR make in terms of sound? I have heard that the OR offers a wider slide compared to the O model?.
I bought the 8820 (if that is the "Peter Sullivan" model) in high school but quickly 'outgrew' it. Which isn't to say that its a bad horn, just not my cup of tea. I think its a combination of leadpipe + crook. Its a narrow slide and has what seems to be a very tight pipe. The bell section it is attached to just doesn't play well with it, to my liking. (Which again, isn't to say Pete plays a bad horn because he is a total monster on it. Seriously, check out the PSO if you haven't. Went to see the PSO do Bruckner 8 last year and it was un.be.leivable.). I know someone else who had this issue with it and they went so far as to swap out the bell receiver and lo-and-behold with a Shires slide (similar to the 882OR specwise) the horn felt great. This was prior to the 882OR release as far as I know so it made more sense to swap out the slide receiver.

I traded this individual for the 8820 slide then and had a YSL645 upper slide put on it (525/547) and it is the best slide I have. But my bell section is a Shires 2RVET7. I also have a Conn 52 pipe in it. So its not stock at all but clearly the components are not an issue.

However, I will say that the sound - despite my finding it to be an uncomfortable horn to play was really great. I borrowed the aforementioned horn (after selling my 8820 years prior) while my current horn was in the shop being built. I did a few concerts on it and the whole section thought I should stick with the horn because they liked the sound I was getting out of it.

There are some small differences in the bell section of the 882OR (reversed tuning slide notably) but the bells in my experience play very similarly. However, the slides are night and day. The 882OR is actually similar to other horns that are being put out... nominally similar to the Shires Q, Getzen 3047 (if it had a rotor), Alessi Edwards, Bach A47, Rath R400, I believe one of the Courtouis models, etc. Basically, they are 'in vogue' for the ~2010-2020 time period in contrast with, say the 1990s which tended to be quite heavy by comparison. These horns mostly have some combination of a 'medium' (by today's standards) weight bell, reversed yellow tuning slide, wide, nickel crook (but not bass), and a 'medium' leadpipe by today's standards. Again, generally, some of these horns are customizable and some offer slight deviations from that.

So with all that said, it isn't like they all play identically, obviously. And they don't all share ALL of those characteristics. But the reason I'm pointing out some similarity to other horns is that, to me, the OR plays closer to what is popular at the moment, I think in large part because of the wide, tenor bore nickel crook and leadpipe. Very "middle of the road" (which is NOT a bad thing) compared to some of the extremes (again, like a 1990s, 20 gauge bell). I prefer this to the 8820 because it's a little more nimble and feels a little less restrictive. Again, I attribute the difference primarily to the pipe and the crook but those aren't the only differences.

Hope that helps more than it confuses!
norbie2018
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by norbie2018 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:05 am

The OR has a bass end crook.
Kbiggs
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Kbiggs » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:20 am

araeed wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:47 pm
Kbiggs wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:39 am
What does your current teacher recommend?

Are you planning to pursue trombone playing at a college or university? If so, what does that instructor/professor recommend?

If you’ve had the chance to play them, which do you feel most comfortable on, and which do you sound best on? If you don’t have the opportunity to try before you buy, that’s life. If you do, then play the same etude, excerpt, or passage on all four horns and do an A:B or 1:1 comparison and contrast. That will probably help you more than any recommendations here on TC will.
Thanks a ton for replying! My current private teacher is a huge Conn fan, so she is more inclined towards the 88H. However, other mentors have been speaking highly of the Yamaha's. Do you know anything much about Courtois horns?
What follows is advice, not fact...

Many years ago in the classical world here in the States, you either played a Bach or a Conn, and you saw the occasional Holton. Now, there are many different manufacturers out there that produce excellent instruments that are superior to the older ones in many ways (but not all!). That’s not to say that having so many choices available is a good thing. For some (me), too many choices in equipment can be confusing.

I have not played the Courtois horns, although I’ve been told they play more like a Bach than a Conn. However, that’s second-hand knowledge. It’s been a few years since I played on a Yamaha tenor, and I don’t remember what it was like. From what I’ve been told and the specs, the 882 and 882O look more Conn-like. But remember, every manufacturer has its own aesthetic, its own idea of how a trombone “should” sound. (Even if the 882 and 882O are very “Conn-like,” they are still Yamahas. Shires one-piece bells and X-tuning slides are intended to help the instrument respond more like a Bach, but it still plays like a Shires. You get the idea...)

If your current teacher plays a Conn, if she has a sound you want to emulate, if she has a strong preference for Conns, and if you and your teacher have a good relationship, then purchasing a Conn or a Conn-like instrument could have several advantages: you will be trying to produce a sound that your teacher produces and is familiar with, and the horn itself doesn’t become a bone of contention between you and the teacher.

In other words—and this is only a suggestion—why not take a significant variable out of the equation? Learning to play like someone whose sound you admire, and making the disciplined effort over a sustained period to consistently produce that sound (whatever it is) can be extremely beneficial.

Later, once you mature as a player or move on to a different teacher, you can buy different equipment. You might even find that as you progress and mature, you really are more of a Bach, Courtois, Edwards, Shires, M&W, etc., player than a Conn player. But that’s later...

My 2 cents...
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
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Matt K
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Matt K » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:49 pm

norbie2018 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:05 am
The OR has a bass end crook.
Do you have a source for that? I looked through their parts system not too long ago and the part was listed as 881/882U so at the very least, its specific to the tenors (which does not preclude it from being larger in bore). Usually with Yamaha if they have a part that is shared (even between bases like some of the F attachment linkage parts or water key parts), they will list the part between horns. Its conceivable that they have a special 'bass' sized crook for these but I'd also been told it is 'wide' and not 'bass' but their documentation doesn't say either way. Would be interesting to know either way!
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Matt K
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Matt K » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:00 pm

I have not played the Courtois horns, although I’ve been told they play more like a Bach than a Conn. However, that’s second-hand knowledge. It’s been a few years since I played on a Yamaha tenor, and I don’t remember what it was like. From what I’ve been told and the specs, the 882 and 882O look more Conn-like. But remember, every manufacturer has its own aesthetic, its own idea of how a trombone “should” sound. (Even if the 882 and 882O are very “Conn-like,” they are still Yamahas. Shires one-piece bells and X-tuning slides are intended to help the instrument respond more like a Bach, but it still plays like a Shires. You get the idea...)
If anything, more Bach like... but really neither fish nor fowl. The 800 series are a 1-piece (like a Bach 42) 8 2/3" (slightly larger than 8.5) bell. The 8820 was built trying to make improvements on the 42B that Pete was playing on prior. The 882OR - possibly - has a bass crook as just pointed out. But the Sullvan model slide does deviate from the "Bach mold". They really are unique in the spectrum of Bach vs. Conn but as I mentioned, they are not particularly unique among many popular horns of the day - on paper at least.

Yamaha also offers a lot of models though. I'm not a huge fan of their large bores, not because of quality just differences in flavor. I love their small bores though but really they have so many horns that are very different in that category that its hard to put them in any bucket.

If your current teacher plays a Conn, if she has a sound you want to emulate, if she has a strong preference for Conns, and if you and your teacher have a good relationship, then purchasing a Conn or a Conn-like instrument could have several advantages: you will be trying to produce a sound that your teacher produces and is familiar with, and the horn itself doesn’t become a bone of contention between you and the teacher.

In other words—and this is only a suggestion—why not take a significant variable out of the equation? Learning to play like someone whose sound you admire, and making the disciplined effort over a sustained period to consistently produce that sound (whatever it is) can be extremely beneficial.
It wasn't too long ago that a certain professor at a certain well known university allegedly wouldn't let anyone graduate unless they had Alessi's exact setup from Edwards. (This was obviously prior to the Alessi Edwards). I don't recall the exact motivation for this but clearly that was too extreme. This advice obviously isn't exactly that but I think it does discount a certain level of individuality that we all have. Alessi's equipment actually works rather well for me even though I don't particularly sound like him. We both share a similar physiology so larger rims and equipment that tames brightness tends to work better for me.

While there are many, many options out there... there are also a lot of options for cars. Yet when we buy a car, we probably don't just ask someone and just order that. We go try it first and see if its a fit. For example, if you have a family of 5 and someone suggests a compact, they probably have a different set of requirements than you do. You don't have to try all of them to get something you like, but since there are many options if you can isn't unwise, in my estimation!
norbie2018
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by norbie2018 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 pm

Matt K wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:49 pm
norbie2018 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:05 am
The OR has a bass end crook.
Do you have a source for that? I looked through their parts system not too long ago and the part was listed as 881/882U so at the very least, its specific to the tenors (which does not preclude it from being larger in bore). Usually with Yamaha if they have a part that is shared (even between bases like some of the F attachment linkage parts or water key parts), they will list the part between horns. Its conceivable that they have a special 'bass' sized crook for these but I'd also been told it is 'wide' and not 'bass' but their documentation doesn't say either way. Would be interesting to know either way!
2 sources: 1st, I posed the question as to whether it was a bass end crook on the old forum and had all responses staying bass. Then, I went to my local music site to try an OR. I examined the end crook ferule and found that the solder on the slide end of the crook was thicker than that on the crook end. IOW, more solder had to be used to fill up the space on the slide end of the ferule, which leads me to believe that is a bass crook.

I guess a third source: I have a lw nickel silver wide slide for my 882O made by Yamaha. It seems to have a bass crook as well.
davetrombizzle
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by davetrombizzle » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:40 pm

kbiggs has a good point in that maybe you should consider the horn that your teacher plays, at least while working with that teacher.

That and, take all the information you glean from this online forum, then, go play the horns with your teacher. There is really no substitute for side-by-side comparison. You will quickly gravitate towards a horn. You may even play a horn and think, "gee, this is really not what I was expecting, no thanks." And you might play another horn you never considered, and it will make you sing.
Bach5G
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Re: Help with choosing large bore?

Post by Bach5G » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:45 pm

I wonder if some of us are getting a little hung up on equipment. There’s more really good gear out there than most of us will ever get a chance to play and someone’s personal experiences and preferences may not be the same as another’s.

I’ve had a bunch of pro quality horns. All were more than adequate instruments. But one stands out: a Bach 50 I bought from Joe Stanko. I received more compliments on my playing when I played that horn. Probably shouldn’t have let it go.
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