Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

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Matt K
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Matt K » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:21 pm

Basbasun wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:13 am
Yesterday I tested lots of horns, about 15 before I get feed up. One thing that makes a difference between dependent and independent, that I have notice before is that on the dependent ( and single ) the BBb, pedal Bb you can start the tone ppp and it is absolutely steady. On all independent without exceptions the is a bit insecure in the start. Unless you have to play that tone extremely soft (like in Verdis requiem) you may not notice that. I address that to the shorter gooseneck. Does that make the independent a less good horn? Hell no. But I stand with my saying, dependent and independent does respond slightly different, not better or worse just slightly different.
I disagree in the sense that applying categorical statements ("on all x without exceptions") because I have a Bach 50B (yes single rotor) as my main axe right now while I build up my stables after spending a lot of cash moving etc. etc. I am much more insecure on it than I am Sliphorn's Shires that he has for sale with independent axials. And the Bach is probably in slightly better condition by dint of the fact that I had the valve section deburred and rotor swapped out a few days ago. I'm sure someone who likes Bach horns might prefer my 50 to that Shires but it can be very complicated!
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Kbiggs » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:19 pm

I’ve played a few singles, but I’ve played quite a few indies and several dependants. My preference is indies with a standard F and Gb tuning. It’s what I learned on, and it’s most comfortable for me. For those that learned on a dependant set-up, that would likely be most comfortable. There are many examples of “converts” to “the other” system: Dave Taylor, for example. There are many professionals who use indies and many who use dependents. They ALL sound great.

It’s possible—thought I haven’t any idea how this could be independently verified—that dependents give a different sort of feedback to the player, given the longer neckpipe. There are so many variables, including (most importantly!) the player, the specific instrument, and mindful practice time on that specific instrument, that to say one set-up is somehow better than the other is similar to saying that chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla.

Don’t discount the “new feeling” factor, either. Sometimes playing a different horn “feels” better because it will repsond differently in ways the player might prefer—in that moment. Sometimes a new horn will feel better for a few days, until things start to settle in, when the horn’s quirks and the player’s idiosyncracies start to surface.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by tbonedude » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:50 pm

Neo Bri wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:53 pm
As far as I can see it, it's about options. And an indy gives you every option.
Independent instruments give you every technical option at the expense of about 2 inches of conical tubing at a very important section of the instrument. I feel like dependent instruments sound and respond better then their independent brothers (which is why I play one currently). If I can find an indy bass with character, and sacrificed nothing with the addition of the extra valve, I'd probably buy it.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by sf105 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:21 pm

blast wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:00 pm
Took the single in. Played the show.... some stuff easier... some stuff harder.... at the end of the show I asked the principal trumpet if he heard any difference.... basically, no.
These are therefore very fine details that we are talking about. Splitting hairs.
Ah well......
Chris
True, but part of the issue is our own ease of playing.

I was wondering, in these days of modular horns, about a "second valve single" module, which would have just a G valve on a finger trigger. It would provide nice slide transitions around low Bb for much of the literature, but without the weight of a double.

I have a straight neckpipe I use occasionally. It's so much easier.

S
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by hyperbolica » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:32 pm

On "the other" site we had a discussion about a C bass with a Bb valve normally engaged and a second valve possibly in F that a forum member had constructed from a Schiller bass bone. Had a short slide. There might have been a European maker who had a similar model. Anyone have links or pics?

With the addition of the old TTF threads to TC, I was able to find the link: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082&\

The horn looks like this:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... V6Tnd6UnNR
Last edited by hyperbolica on Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by blast » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:04 am

sf105 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:21 pm
blast wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:00 pm
Took the single in. Played the show.... some stuff easier... some stuff harder.... at the end of the show I asked the principal trumpet if he heard any difference.... basically, no.
These are therefore very fine details that we are talking about. Splitting hairs.
Ah well......
Chris
True, but part of the issue is our own ease of playing.

I was wondering, in these days of modular horns, about a "second valve single" module, which would have just a G valve on a finger trigger. It would provide nice slide transitions around low Bb for much of the literature, but without the weight of a double.

I have a straight neckpipe I use occasionally. It's so much easier.

S
The biggest thing by far to make playing easier is always practise. We must never lose sight of that. Playing the single just made my evening different.... not better or worse , just different.

Chris
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by peteedwards » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:10 am

hyperbolica wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:32 pm
On "the other" site we had a discussion about a C bass with a Bb valve normally engaged and a second valve possibly in F that a forum member had constructed from a Schiller bass bone. Had a short slide. There might have been a European maker who had a similar model. Anyone have links or pics?

With the addition of the old TTF threads to TC, I was able to find the link: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082&\

The horn looks like this:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... V6Tnd6UnNR
That's my horn- been using it as a daily driver now for 6 months & loving it
Its kinda the best of all worlds, light as a single, fully chromatic & with most of the facility of a double independent
plus the added bonus of a trill valve (Bach cello suites are really fun with it)

I was going to do a bigger write up on it but thankfully the archived TTF showed up- thanks to all those involved in recovering the data!
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by hyperbolica » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:24 am

peteedwards wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:10 am

That's my horn- been using it as a daily driver now for 6 months & loving it
Its kinda the best of all worlds, light as a single, fully chromatic & with most of the facility of a double independent
plus the added bonus of a trill valve (Bach cello suites are really fun with it)

I was going to do a bigger write up on it but thankfully the archived TTF showed up- thanks to all those involved in recovering the data!
I'd really love to borrow that horn for a month. :pant: It looks like a really good idea, I'd love to actually see how it plays.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by peteedwards » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:10 am

I can't let you borrow it but I'm in southern PA (near Baltimore MD) if your in the area you could come & play it.
I've been thinking about building another one this summer using a Bach Holton or Yamaha if I can find a reasonably priced sample.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by sf105 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 am

hyperbolica wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:32 pm
On "the other" site we had a discussion about a C bass with a Bb valve normally engaged and a second valve possibly in F that a forum member had constructed from a Schiller bass bone. Had a short slide. There might have been a European maker who had a similar model. Anyone have links or pics?

With the addition of the old TTF threads to TC, I was able to find the link: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082&\
Interesting thread. Makes me wonder about whether a G/F/C contra would work? It would make those low Gb's in the Ring a bit easier and be lighter to hold.

S
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by brtnats » Tue May 01, 2018 11:37 am

I am just a dedicated amateur, but I'd like to add +1 for dependents for 2 reasons:

1. To me, dependents feel better on the double valve notes. Good modern dependent basses have second valves designed to play low D-B, and that's it. They don't have to sound good as indy valves, and there's some design magic in really well-made dependents that makes those notes feel great.

2. Dependents let you preset the second valve to slur into and out of the low register with one valve movement instead of two. I like that and like not having to coordinate 2 valves.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Matt K » Tue May 01, 2018 3:48 pm

brtnats wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:37 am
I am just a dedicated amateur, but I'd like to add +1 for dependents for 2 reasons:

1. To me, dependents feel better on the double valve notes. Good modern dependent basses have second valves designed to play low D-B, and that's it. They don't have to sound good as indy valves, and there's some design magic in really well-made dependents that makes those notes feel great.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good dependent but I'm not aware of any such design elements that would optimize for those notes. Is there a horn that you can give an example of that has a unique design element that would affect those notes? That would be distinct from, say, the additional conical tubing in the neckpipe for a dependent horn as that would apply to every note. Or at least it does in my experience!
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by boomski » Tue May 01, 2018 5:45 pm

So I thought I would update, since I always wonder what people who ask for advice end up with... I just bought a Yamaha 622! Should be here sometime this week, but I’m very excited about it. It’s been great to read all of the thoughts around independent vs dependent, and while I’d love one of the nicer new indy’s... I’m sure I’ll be happy with the Yamaha!
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Matt K » Tue May 01, 2018 6:08 pm

boomski wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 5:45 pm
So I thought I would update, since I always wonder what people who ask for advice end up with... I just bought a Yamaha 622! Should be here sometime this week, but I’m very excited about it. It’s been great to read all of the thoughts around independent vs dependent, and while I’d love one of the nicer new indy’s... I’m sure I’ll be happy with the Yamaha!
Those 622s are nice horns. You're likely to be happy with it!
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Neo Bri » Tue May 01, 2018 6:48 pm

boomski wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 5:45 pm
So I thought I would update, since I always wonder what people who ask for advice end up with... I just bought a Yamaha 622! Should be here sometime this week, but I’m very excited about it. It’s been great to read all of the thoughts around independent vs dependent, and while I’d love one of the nicer new indy’s... I’m sure I’ll be happy with the Yamaha!
You'll like it a lot! They make such great basses.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by brtnats » Wed May 02, 2018 8:12 am

Matt K wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:48 pm
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good dependent but I'm not aware of any such design elements that would optimize for those notes. Is there a horn that you can give an example of that has a unique design element that would affect those notes? That would be distinct from, say, the additional conical tubing in the neckpipe for a dependent horn as that would apply to every note. Or at least it does in my experience!

It may BE the neckpipe; I don't know. But the Yamaha dependent basses all feel better on D/Db/C/B than the Yamaha indys I've played. That's a 620, 622, and 822 against a 613.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by whitbey » Wed May 02, 2018 4:15 pm

My dependent Bach does better on the low range and has more twinkle in the tenor range then any indi Bach I have tried. Much of that is the neck pipe. It might also be that Kevin Powers of Michigan Musical reassembled my horn many years ago and it got better.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by blast » Thu May 03, 2018 1:06 am

whitbey wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 4:15 pm
My dependent Bach does better on the low range and has more twinkle in the tenor range then any indi Bach I have tried. Much of that is the neck pipe. It might also be that Kevin Powers of Michigan Musical reassembled my horn many years ago and it got better.
How do you know that it's the neckpipe that is responsible ? Have you conducted acoustic tests ?

Chris
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by sf105 » Thu May 03, 2018 4:51 am

blast wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:00 pm
Took the single in. Played the show.... some stuff easier... some stuff harder.... at the end of the show I asked the principal trumpet if he heard any difference.... basically, no.
These are therefore very fine details that we are talking about. Splitting hairs.
Ah well......
Chris
But splitting hairs is what we do :) Better than splitting notes.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by blast » Thu May 03, 2018 5:39 am

Better than splitting hares.... animal rights people don't like that.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by blast » Thu May 03, 2018 7:45 am

Seriously, I have converted many trombones. I have always noticed more difference in sound and feel when I have converted a single to a dependent double than when I have converted a dependent double to an independent. It could be that it is more about weight and where it is, or even where the supporting stay-work is..... but I suspect all of this is pure conjecture.

Chris
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by deanmccarty » Sat May 05, 2018 9:12 am

Just getting in on this... I have played just about all combinations over the years. Dependent Duo Gravis was my first... then, Bach side by side, then Conn independent rotors, then Bach indepedent K-Valves, then Greenhoe independent, then Shires independent Thayer, then Shires dependent rotor, then Shires single rotor... then tried out Rath Hagmann independent, but chose Rath dependent Rotax. Moral of the story... they ALL work. I’ve come to lean toward the dependent setup... but I’ve been playing a long time... and the small difference is a BIG deal to me. But whatever works for you. There is no right or wrong answer. There are pluses and minuses to each. Go with the one that fits you the best.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by imsevimse » Sat May 05, 2018 12:47 pm

Great interesting thread. Think it is good we have this new forum so we can get things like this discussed again.

I don't know how to add to this discussion except being very analytical.

I have lots of basses both deps, indis and singles. What horn do I bring to a gig and why?

When it is a primavista gig with a big band I always bring a double. Why? Because I dont know what to expect. What double? Always the one with easiest blow and best projection. In those situations I allways choose the dependant Kanstul 1662 or the dependant Elkhart Conn 62h (even though the latter has side by side buttons with the roll)

I do not choose the indi Olds P24G (with the optional super large second Eb valve to put it in Bb/F/Eb/bC same setup Blast talked about) or the indi Benge 290 with either Bb/F/G/Eb or Bb/F/Gb/D. The many combinations are not necessary. I do not choose the fantastic single valve Bach 50 I bought from Sven Larsson even though the blow is amazing on that horn nor the great G.Roberts Olds P21 with 9" bell or another Roberts favorite the TR183 or any of the many other great double and single basses I own.

Several old dependants could be more useful if the second trigger were converted to use the middle finger. Some dependants that needs convertion to be more useful are a Holton TR185 with a hopeless plug-in valve called the "birds nest", a King 6b "duo gravis" with buttons in front of each other, a Holton TR180 with "Glanz-bar". They could work soundwise but not as easy if there are a lot of trigger work in the part to be played. The "Glanz-bar" is what I think the next best system, but next best is of course only second best.

There, I just listed 10 of my best basses ;-)

Why (and what differences between the Kanstul 1662 and Conn 62H)?

A combination of:
1 easiest to blow (Kanstul),
2 best projection (both, but different),
3 best sound (Conn),
4. all notes easy available (Both but + for the Kanstul because I can use the middle finger for second valve).

If I would do a lot of primavista symphony orchestra bass trombone gigs I think I would use the Conn 62H because that sound is something extra. If I beforehand could know there is no need for two valves then I would choose the Bach 50.

If only one bass was my option I would choose a double and make sure it is one with the easiest possible blow and projection for the money. You need to try a lot of horns. Today there are so many choices with different valves like Hagmanns and Thayers that indis versus dependants might be secondary.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Sun May 06, 2018 6:34 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Burgerbob » Sat May 05, 2018 3:39 pm

In the last year, I have been able to use my single 60H one time in a performance setting. I never felt safe bringing it to an unknown gig or in the orchestra section.

I have noticed a couple other horns that have easier playing pedal ranges than my Bach, but never to the point that I would change. Tonight I play one of the few times you need to really play loud pedals (Symphonie Fantastique) and the Bach does it just fine.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by fwbassbone » Sat May 05, 2018 5:08 pm

I've enjoyed reading through this post and as usual the community has covered the subject very well. Many have posted what they use and it is all over the place. I have played about everything and am playing an Edwards B502D now. I started on dependent and feel very comfortable with it but have played several independent horns including the Shires that I have. Bottom line is what do you like and of course what do you make music best with. As far as one vs two valves. When I was in the orchestra I used a single Conn on many occasions but usually a double Bach or Yamaha. Now my main gigs are a brass band and a big band and I couldn't cover the books without a double. I still miss the old Conn but wouldn't use if I had it.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by BassBoneWadie99 » Sun May 06, 2018 9:25 pm

Also, didn't the legendary bass trombonist, Edward Kleinhammer of the CSO (Chicago Symphony Orchestra) played a custom built Bb/F/D/B independent bass trombone during the 70's - mid 80's before retiring? Which would put low D and pedal D in first positon using the second valve alone, as well playing low B and pedal B in first using both valves.

I do recall Don Harwood of the New York Philharmonic using a customized Bach 50 where you can use a low C and pedal C in first using both valves, and you can play a low Eb and pedal Eb in first position using the second valve alone. Those odd systems sound interesting!
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by JohnL » Sun May 06, 2018 11:22 pm

Olds offered an Eb-D extension for the second valve on the P-24G. I have one. Adds a lot of weight and plays hob with the balance of the horn, as well as negating most of the technical uses for the second valve.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by imsevimse » Mon May 07, 2018 12:22 am

I also have the optional second extension for my P-24G. After some experimenting with this I found the Bb/F/Eb/bC and Bb/F/D/bB to be fun to play. The advantage is you can keep within the first four regular positions, or to make it more clear you never need to pass the bell with your slide hand. You can go on within this distance until you reach pedal G, and you will also have some useful alternate positions for some of the higher pedals. The only note you need fifth for is pedal F#. A fun tuning to play but I have not found any need for these tunings in any music I've seen and the extension makes the horn heavier.

/Tom
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by BassBoneWadie99 » Mon May 07, 2018 1:16 pm

During lunch at school I decided to mess around and set my bass trombone to a Bb/F/Db tuning on my 1062FD. I swithed my F and D slides and pulled them out a good distance and the F/Db is there! It took a lot of air though but was interesting to try something different for a change. I could really play those pedal Db's and C's out and also got a decent sounding pedal B as well and almost got a double pedal Bb too!

But the drawback was mainly the music that would make it usefull, but in Whiplash, I could switch from low C to pedal Bb easy but that was about it.

Maybe I will use it for the spring concert since Whiplash is really the only song where I need two valves. None of the less it was interesting and fun to use!
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by sf105 » Mon May 07, 2018 1:21 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:39 pm
In the last year, I have been able to use my single 60H one time in a performance setting. I never felt safe bringing it to an unknown gig or in the orchestra section.

I have noticed a couple other horns that have easier playing pedal ranges than my Bach, but never to the point that I would change. Tonight I play one of the few times you need to really play loud pedals (Symphonie Fantastique) and the Bach does it just fine.
Did the Symphony Fanstastique recently on a small horn. The pedals cut straight through the band without killing anyone. Berlioz knew what he was doing.

S
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by blast » Mon May 07, 2018 1:33 pm

sf105 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 1:21 pm
Burgerbob wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:39 pm
In the last year, I have been able to use my single 60H one time in a performance setting. I never felt safe bringing it to an unknown gig or in the orchestra section.

I have noticed a couple other horns that have easier playing pedal ranges than my Bach, but never to the point that I would change. Tonight I play one of the few times you need to really play loud pedals (Symphonie Fantastique) and the Bach does it just fine.
Did the Symphony Fanstastique recently on a small horn. The pedals cut straight through the band without killing anyone. Berlioz knew what he was doing.

S2
Yes indeed Steve. It is miles away from the compser's concept to use large trombones for that music. Even what we now call small trombones are too big... but we live in bloated times when truth is dismissed in the worship of decibels.

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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by BGuttman » Mon May 07, 2018 2:11 pm

sf105 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 1:21 pm

Did the Symphony Fanstastique recently on a small horn. The pedals cut straight through the band without killing anyone. Berlioz knew what he was doing.

S
Berlioz didn't even put the pedal Bbs in the 3rd trombone part. I think he was expecting an instrument in Eb or F.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by JohnL » Mon May 07, 2018 2:25 pm

One of the things about super-long attachments is that you end up with fewer slide positions. If you've got an indy set up for Bb/F/D/B, that B tuning is only going to have four usable positions.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by JoeStanko » Mon May 07, 2018 3:00 pm

JohnL wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 2:25 pm
One of the things about super-long attachments is that you end up with fewer slide positions. If you've got an indy set up for Bb/F/D/B, that B tuning is only going to have four usable positions.
Actually, the idea behind this is not to use the valves together - each is treated individually. My first exposure to this tuning was from Mr. Kleinhammer; he first saw this setup from a player in Europe.

When Ed Anderson switched to a Bach 50B3, he had a tuning slide made to put the second valve in independent C; this maintained the relationship of the F attachment, but down an octave (his previous dependent 50B2 was set up for C with both valves). The aforementioned reference to Don Harwood's independent C valve is the same.

Yes, the weight is cumbersome, but the open response of using one valve for a low C and B that aren't off the end of the slide is terrific. This is a different concept then using the second independent valve for alternate positions when it's in G, bG or Gb.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by blast » Mon May 07, 2018 4:18 pm

Thanks Joe. Nice context. You have told it as it is. I really like the idea of the two valve concept... except the weight !!! Gentlemen of a certain age.....

Chris
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by imsevimse » Tue May 08, 2018 12:43 am

My indi Olds P-24G responds very well when either valve is used separately or with both valves used together.

To me it does not make much sense that the use of the second valve C alone would make it blow better because the air still passes two valves and the length of the tubes engaged is the same on either valve combination :idk: The exception is pedal Bb, A and Ab on the open horn. That is a completely different blow compared to the same notes on vv3, vv4 and vv5 but Eb, D, Db, C and B are not that different. The same length of tubing and the sound still has to pass two valves. On a dependant Bb/F/D that difference do exist. If you tube the f-att flat and reach that C on v6 it is a different blow compared to the vv3.

I do see a point to play the Bb/F/Eb/bC section for another reason, because I do not need to pass the first regular fourth position with my hand except for pedal F#.

Since I mostly play on a dependant horn I do not count on having a Gb valve or G valve so on the Olds I don't miss those alternatives..

On a dependent I use both valves mostly for B and C, the same on an indi which makes Bb/F/Eb/bC more useful for me than Bb/F/Gb/D because the C and B are on vv1 and vv2. You still can use C on second valve alone on second valve position 4 and have still another B on second valve position 5. A good bonus is the contra Bb on vv3.

/Tom
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by blast » Tue May 08, 2018 2:10 am

imsevimse wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 12:43 am
My indi Olds P-24G responds very well when either valve is used separately or with both valves used together.

To me it does not make much sense that the use of the second valve C alone would make it blow better because the air still passes two valves and the length of the tubes engaged is the same on either valve combination :idk: The exception is pedal Bb, A and Ab on the open horn. That is a completely different blow compared to the same notes on vv3, vv4 and vv5 but Eb, D, Db, C and B are not that different. The same length of tubing and the sound still has to pass two valves. On a dependant Bb/F/D that difference do exist. If you tube the f-att flat and reach that C on v6 it is a different blow compared to the vv3.

I do see a point to play the Bb/F/Eb/bC section for another reason, because I do not need to pass the first regular fourth position with my hand except for pedal F#.

Since I mostly play on a dependant horn I do not count on having a Gb valve or G valve so on the Olds I don't miss those alternatives..

On a dependent I use both valves mostly for B and C, the same on an indi which makes Bb/F/Eb/bC more useful for me than Bb/F/Gb/D because the C and B are on vv1 and vv2. You still can use C on second valve alone on second valve position 4 and have still another B on second valve position 5. A good bonus is the contra Bb on vv3.

/Tom
Well Tom, on the trombones that I have extra tube for, I find the blow of the C and B on the second valve alone to be much better, even though it passes through the core of valve one on it's way. May be just the tube..... who knows ? In some operas where I play little, but play low, the extra tube is a lifesaver.... other times I am quite happy with the single... whatever is the best tool for the job.... and that varies.... a lot.

Chris
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by sf105 » Tue May 08, 2018 11:16 am

BGuttman wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 2:11 pm
sf105 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 1:21 pm

Did the Symphony Fanstastique recently on a small horn. The pedals cut straight through the band without killing anyone. Berlioz knew what he was doing.
Berlioz didn't even put the pedal Bbs in the 3rd trombone part. I think he was expecting an instrument in Eb or F.
??? Not in the edition I was playing.

I've also once done the same for the Grande Messe on an even smaller horn (12H) in Ely Cathedral. With the flutes picking out the harmonics, it was just right.

S
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by sf105 » Tue May 08, 2018 11:18 am

JoeStanko wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 3:00 pm

When Ed Anderson switched to a Bach 50B3, he had a tuning slide made to put the second valve in independent C; this maintained the relationship of the F attachment, but down an octave (his previous dependent 50B2 was set up for C with both valves). The aforementioned reference to Don Harwood's independent C valve is the same.

Yes, the weight is cumbersome, but the open response of using one valve for a low C and B that aren't off the end of the slide is terrific. This is a different concept then using the second independent valve for alternate positions when it's in G, bG or Gb.
I never understood how Ed Anderson managed to hold that thing off the ground. Must have been heavier than a contra.

S
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by mrdeacon » Sat May 12, 2018 2:45 am

The way I look at it is if you can only own one horn you have to own a double, whether it is a indy or dependent doesn't really matter.

Doug Yeo is not wrong 90% of music can be played on a single. Whether it be orchestral, wind ensemble or commercial music or straight ahead jazz, pretty much all of it can be played on a single. You'll wish you had a double though in 50% of those charts. Modern jazz and most bass trombone solo rep is unplayable without a double.

If I had to restart over I'd just buy a indy horn. I personally think dependents blow better then indys and singles blow better then either of them (they all sound the same) but the added facility of the double valves is so handy it makes having a single or dependent moot.

The irony to this is I only play singles or dependents haha it's what I learned on and it's what I'm used to.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Matt K » Sat May 12, 2018 8:37 am

To provide full context, Doug's article on this provides some fantastic insight and is worth a read in its entirety! The article itself quotes from a writing made in the ITA Journal (In Defense of the Single Valve Bass Trombone, Douglas Yeo. International Trombone Association Journal, Volume XII, No. 3, July 1984. pp. 20-23.). The 90% figure, is actually higher and comes from this passage:
"The answer, of course, is that prehistoric dinosaur, the single valve bass trombone. I made a rather careful survey of the roughly 131 pieces of symphonic music I've played over the past three years in the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra (not including 'pops' concerts - more on them later) and I came up with a rather startling discovery - 126 of the pieces, of 96.5%, required the use of only one valve. Three pieces had isolated low B's that necessitated a 'pull' of the F slide (more on that later, too) and only two pieces (Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra and his Miraculous Mandarin ) absolutely required a double valve trombone. . . Virtually everything could be played on one valve! The choice seems clear."
(Emphasis added)

The question in this case was that [I'm now paraphrasing] that in-lines have more resistance and he, at the time of writing in 1984, had yet to hear someone who played both who sounded better on the in-line rather than the dependent or single. Additionally, the dexterity required for two valves was more difficult than on a dependent, when directly comparing the two.

He goes on to suggest that rather than framing it as the in-line solves problems, questioning whether there is a problem. At the risk of overquoting, it is hard to capture the essence of what he is saying by paraphrasing:
"Now . . . wait a minute," you may say. "Don't tell me that you can play technically difficult things on just a single valve horn." To which I will say, "Show me some in the symphonic literature I can't!" It's a myth that the orchestral literature is full of technically impossible parts to play. Among those pieces I've done with only one valve are Ein Heldenleben , Die Walkure (the complete opera), the Berg Violin Concerto , The Planets , all the Brahms symphonies, Pines of Rome ; the list goes on. Sure, it takes a little thinking, but I have never felt uncomfortable with using just one valve. It is the same logical principle tenor players that use a 'straight horn' instead of an F attachment horn use. Why play on equipment that I don't need most of the time?"
However, he indicates that, even in 1984 that for commercial, studio, pops, brass quintets, etc. he used a double valve instrument because "there is no denying that the double valve horn gives you greater flexibility and allows you to play difficult technical passages [easier]..."

He also includes a very lengthy passage about the benefits of in-line and concludes the article by suggesting that:
While each player will of course feel that the system they play is "best" for them, it is simply not possible to put an imprint on a valve set up (or mouthpiece, leadpipe, bell weight or any kind of equipment, for that matter) that is THE choice for everyone. Each person can have cogent, persuasive reasons why they like what they play and those reasons are rarely "right" and "wrong" - they are simply "different." ... There are good players on every kind, style, make, wrap, and type of trombone... It really is less what you play than how you play.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by JohnL » Sat May 12, 2018 11:12 am

JoeStanko wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 3:00 pm
Actually, the idea behind this is not to use the valves together - each is treated individually. My first exposure to this tuning was from Mr. Kleinhammer; he first saw this setup from a player in Europe.
So it might be more accurately termed a "twin single" rather than an "independent double"?

There's actually a bit of irony to be found in Doug Yeo's article. The two pieces he cites as definitively requiring a second valve (Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra and The Miraculous Mandarin) both include glissandi between the B below the staff and the F at the bottom of the staff. Regardless of whether it's played on a dependent or independent, there's a break somewhere in the gliss that the player has to somehow "smooth over", so a double isn't really the most suitable instrument for those pieces, either - it's just the least unsuitable thing that's readily available.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Matt K » Sat May 12, 2018 3:06 pm

Perhaps even not ironic as much as illustrative in that even those two examples could arguably be discounted because of their exceptional nature.
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by blast » Sat May 12, 2018 3:54 pm

Matt K wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 3:06 pm
Perhaps even not ironic as much as illustrative in that even those two examples could arguably be discounted because of their exceptional nature.
The concerto for orchestra gliss is the most over hyped noise in history. IT'S EASY. Get over it people.

Douglas is of course correct... far more important how you play than what you play.

Chris
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Matt K » Sat May 12, 2018 4:09 pm

Of course! By exceptional, I mean more along the lines of it being unusual, not inherently difficult. Two examples of passages that necessitate two valves out of over a century worth of music is pretty comprehensive, after all! That's one valve per century :biggrin:
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Basbasun » Mon May 14, 2018 2:36 am

The gliss in the concerto for orchestra is performed in different ways. I remeber the first time I did it I just lipped the (sharp) the low C down to B. No problem. Latter (many times) I played the low B as a "fake tone" on the position as the low Eb, moved the slide out in the beginnig of the gliss and then moving to F on first. For me easy.
I do not use the second valve for that gliss. Some players loch the F valve with a rubber band so the second valve is easy to open slow. (I prefer lipping).
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by blast » Mon May 14, 2018 11:23 am

Basbasun wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 2:36 am
The gliss in the concerto for orchestra is performed in different ways. I remeber the first time I did it I just lipped the (sharp) the low C down to B. No problem. Latter (many times) I played the low B as a "fake tone" on the position as the low Eb, moved the slide out in the beginnig of the gliss and then moving to F on first. For me easy.
I do not use the second valve for that gliss. Some players loch the F valve with a rubber band so the second valve is easy to open slow. (I prefer lipping).
Indeed. A little technique trumps equipment every time.

Chris
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by hurry » Mon May 21, 2018 9:16 am

I take my Conn62H, a dependent, because people easily recognize that it is bass trombone with double valve. When I play YBL321, a single bass, someone does not see it is bass.
If I do not need 2nd valve on the music I simply prefer single bass for rehearsals because of the weight advantage.
hurry, not in a hurry
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Tue May 22, 2018 12:06 am

hurry wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 9:16 am
I take my Conn62H, a dependent, because people easily recognize that it is bass trombone with double valve. When I play YBL321, a single bass, someone does not see it is bass.
Assistant Conductor of my Community Orchestra recently raved about finally having a bass trombone when I showed up with a new to me TR181, acting relieved that we now had a complete Trombone Section. I'd been playing a 72H for a couple years with him. Any low notes I didn't hit were NOT the fault of the horn!

I started to explain it, but decided to just let him be pleased with my commitment and new capability.

The whole reason I was on 3rd in the first place was because, with that 72, I was then only one that HAD a bass trombone!
Philip Carlson
TR-181, 72H, 88HCL, 32H, 30H, 4H, 50's Super, 40's Super, Buescher True-Tone 410 & The Buescher, Constellation Euph, Getzen Severenson
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Re: Bass Trombones- Single vs Dependent vs Independent

Post by Basbasun » Tue May 22, 2018 3:59 am

PhilipEdCarlson wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 12:06 am
hurry wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 9:16 am
I take my Conn62H, a dependent, because people easily recognize that it is bass trombone with double valve. When I play YBL321, a single bass, someone does not see it is bass.
Assistant Conductor of my Community Orchestra recently raved about finally having a bass trombone when I showed up with a new to me TR181, acting relieved that we now had a complete Trombone Section. I'd been playing a 72H for a couple years with him. Any low notes I didn't hit were NOT the fault of the horn!

I started to explain it, but decided to just let him be pleased with my commitment and new capability.

The whole reason I was on 3rd in the first place was because, with that 72, I was then only one that HAD a bass trombone!
Well if the conductor did´nt listen enough to hear the tones you played, there is no use to explain anything of the matter.
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