Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

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marccromme
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Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by marccromme »

... does that concept exist in any instrument? I am playing in an amateur big band with three small trombones, and would like to find an indy bass bone which is lighter and brighter than my current setup. My Kruspe is way too big, and my Wessex Yamaha clone works with a Laskey 85MD, but I'd like to find a better horn for the job. The challenge is the 4th trombone parts, which go up to 8th partial Bb or 9th partial C (Miller and Ib Glindemann stuff) down to pedal F (modern arrangements) , with the need of speed and flexibility in the double valve range.

I would like to find something like this:

* dual bore 547/562 (or normal 562 with bright sound)
* indy Bb/F/Gb/D setup, preferably large rotors or other kind of open-flow valves
* preferred open wrap or at least semi-open wrap (no stuffy Bach rotors)
* preferred a 9" bell, or a light and responsive 9.5" bell
* good intonation and snappy response
* light/bright on tonal color without need to out-power the other small trombones
* should work well with Laskey 85 MD or similar (I don't like going smaller as I play Eb tuba as well)

Does such an instrument exist as standard ?

From the top og my head, maybe one similar to these, but 2 indy valves

Bach 45B (missing 2. valve ..)

Conn 70H (missing 2. valve)

Conn 62 HI ???

Holton TR-159 (missing 2. valve)

What models do I miss to look for? Your input is highly appreciated.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by JohnL »

You've pretty much described the Olds P-24G. Most of them shipped with G rather Gb crooks on the the second valve, but you can swap crooks with the F attachment and get a Gb.

.565" bore, nickel outers (pretty much nickel everything except the rotor casings and the bell)
Indy Bb/G/F/Eb (swap the crooks for Bb/Gb/F/D); reasonably well designed conventional rotors
Trad wrap (I have one that's modded to open-wrap - IMHO, it's not a noticeable change)
9" bell (standard; there are 9.5" bells out there); note that the bell throat is not small - it's just a smaller flare

The rest of your requirements are subjective; IMHO, they're right in the P-24G's wheelhouse, but that just my opinion.

Another possibility would be a King 7B. it was pretty much designed to do almost exactly what you're describing.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by blast »

I have a Rath R9 all nickel silver 9" bell ... everything you are asking for.

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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by hyperbolica »

Yeah, this is the same quest that I've been on recently. The Olds P24G is a great horn for this type of playing. Unfortunately, those don't just grow on trees, and it does lack the dual bore slide.

You've already mentioned the Holton TR159, and some of the dual bore 70h models. There are also some Olds, like the S-20 that have sucky valves and are just begging for a dual valve replacement. Plus, the one I got has a leadpipe that needs to be replaced - funky sized receiver won't fit standard mouthpieces. I found a Duo Gravis valve set (dependent) to replace the small and funky Olds valve. Plus, the S-20 has TIS. Now this makes for a heavy slide, but I really like the sound. And a light slide isn't a requirement for most of the 4th parts.

There's such an obsession with big basses that people who want kind of in-between stuff are left to fend for themselves. I'm waiting for tech availability, but I've got all my parts ready to go. Best of luck to you. I'll document my work as it gets done and show the final result here. Should be in a month or two.

Oooh, Chris, that sounds nice. I'll have about $1500 into mine, not sure I could justify the scratch that R9 must have cost, but I'll bet it's a great horn.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by marccromme »

John - I have never seen an Olds bass trombone on the market in Scandinavia, this might be an hard find. But I'll keep an open eye for an Olds P-24G. I totally forgot about the King 7B. Those are from time to time on the market here. I'll better look out for them too ...

Chris - the Rath R9 9" bell - that is not a standard option, right ?

Hyperbolica - I'd love to see your Olds S-20 when finished.

The obvious idea seems to take a Holton TR 159 and re-build with a double valve section.

Or to take a Conn 62 HI (they do exist with 9" bell, I believe) and build a dual bore slide for it.

But I'd prefer not to have the hassle, but finding the right model out there ..

Thanks for the input! Much appreciated.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by BGuttman »

There are several Chinese King 7B clones that may be easier to find than the genuine article. I'd look into the Wessex just because of the better QC.

I love my King 7B. Use it for everything. Even played 1st on it today (not intentionally).
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Matt K »

The Getzen 1052 is actually pretty good at that sort of thing. I have one though its being cut up a million different ways to make a custom horn for me. Bt if I hadn't stumbled upon the exact right set of components at the right time I'd have been fine keeping it. I used it mostly for big band stuff. Light but not too light, still has a good low range but the high range exists too etc.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by JohnL »

marccromme wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:47 pm John - I have never seen an Olds bass trombone on the market in Scandinavia...
How common are Amati trombones in your part of the world? I've never played one, but the specs on the Amati ASL 382 look promising. It's dependent, but if it could be had inexpensively enough, adding a set of indy valves wouldn't push the cost too high.

If you were willing to go with a single, a Holton TR-183 might be suitable.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by hyperbolica »

Amati. I hadn't considered looking under that particular rock. It looks interesting, and inexpensive.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by MTbassbone »

Doesn't Latzsch make a light weight bass? No experience with it, and I know it is kind of pricey. Anyone have experience with the Courtois 502? I tried a Yamaha YBL-830 that I thought was lighter than some basses. I may not be the best person to ask as I play an Edwards dependent with Thayers. Its way to heavy.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by hyperbolica »

I can't speak for the OP, but I was looking not just for light, but also physically smaller for a more tromboney sound. Thus the 9" bell and 547/562 slide.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Bonearzt »

The Holton TR-181 fits this description perfectly! Especially an older horn with a thinner bell!

Gives you the snark you need when you jump on it.

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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by hyperbolica »

@Bonearzt, doesn't the 181 have a huge 10" bell?
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Bassbonechandler »

Matt K wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:18 pm The Getzen 1052 is actually pretty good at that sort of thing. I have one though its being cut up a million different ways to make a custom horn for me. Bt if I hadn't stumbled upon the exact right set of components at the right time I'd have been fine keeping it. I used it mostly for big band stuff. Light but not too light, still has a good low range but the high range exists too etc.
What are you having done to it? I thought about maybe getting the olsen rotaries put on mine but I'll probably just get a new horn.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Matt K »

What are you having done to it? I thought about maybe getting the olsen rotaries put on mine but I'll probably just get a new horn.
Weeeeelll that's a bit of a long story. I was originally going to just have the Olsen rotaries put on it and have it made modular with Edwards (since the "only" things that would need to be done is getting a slide receiver+bell lock nut and position , position the braces appropriately, and add the bell posts). I had a spare Edwards thayer section sitting around... sort of (it was left handed). But I then acquired a Shires scew bell and I had a tuning slide too so I went ahead and am having the bell section just made into a Shires bell section... which means the only parts I'm really keeping are the tubing lol Plan on swapping out the tenon.

I really did like the bell and I have half a mind to make it modular with the Shires section too but I'm a little low on funding with all the projects I'm taking on at the moment, so my tech and I are going to make it into a contemporary style 6B/7B (probably independent). It'll be modular with Edwards but have smaller 562 rotors as the Kings do. My hope is it'll play like a slightly modernized King as - on paper - that's what it'll be. But worst case scenario the valve section might be something someone is interested in acquiring independently for a 'small' bass. That has yet to be built but if someone is interested in something like the latter, now would be the time to mention interest to me because it can be made to suit your preferences!
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Pre59 »

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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by hyperbolica »

@pre59, yeah, that was one of the options discussed. I'd put a plugin valve on it, but the OP wants indy valves.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by imsevimse »

marccromme wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:47 pm John - I have never seen an Olds bass trombone on the market in Scandinavia, this might be an hard find. But I'll keep an open eye for an Olds P-24G. I totally forgot about the King 7B. Those are from time to time on the market here. I'll better look out for them too ...

Chris - the Rath R9 9" bell - that is not a standard option, right ?

Hyperbolica - I'd love to see your Olds S-20 when finished.

The obvious idea seems to take a Holton TR 159 and re-build with a double valve section.

Or to take a Conn 62 HI (they do exist with 9" bell, I believe) and build a dual bore slide for it.

But I'd prefer not to have the hassle, but finding the right model out there ..

Thanks for the input! Much appreciated.
I too immediately came to think of the Olds P24-G. I bought my horn used in Scandinavia (Stockholm/Sweden) last year from a professional player. The horn was used by a Swede in James Last orchestra in a couple of tours in the 80ies. Love horn. I was lucky I also got the optional huge Eb or D-valve for the second trigger which means I can play Bb/F/Eb/C or Bb/F/D/B if I want other tunings than the more common Bb/F/G/Eb and Bb/F/Gb/D.

I don't know of any other horns that matches your whish list right on. If you could due with an dependant I can recommend a King 6b "Duo Gravis". I have one of those and sound wise it fits your whish list. I guess the 7b fits your requirement better since it is an in-ine setup, but can't recommend since I have never tried one.

A Benge 290 is also good for big band. It is inline. The problem is it has a 10" bell. That does not fit your requirements but positive is it has the option to switch the slides so you can have the second valve in either G or Gb. Benge are often found at good prices on ebay.

/Tom
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by GabrielRice »

I would advise against fixating on a .547-.562 dual bore. There aren't that many horns like that, and they tend to be strange mash-ups with questionable intonation (the Bach 45B, for example, is a very odd beast). A .562 set up to do what you want sonically will be great.

Also, don't worry too much about bell diameter - it's more about taper than ultimate diameter. You might try a Conn 112H, even though many of them have 10" bells - there are a lot of them out there to be had used for reasonable money, and they're not that hard to resell if you find you don't like it.

You might also try an older Yamaha 613 or 613G (not the 613H, which is much more symphonic in design). They are lightweight and very even-blowing. Don't be fooled by what looks like a closed wrap - the valve register plays great on those horns, with a lot of clarity and bite. These are about the easiest bass trombones to play that you'll find. The only reason I don't play one myself is that the sound lacks the thickness and depth I need for the orchestras I play in - even with the 10" bell you typically see on these. Really - if I were looking for a horn for the job you describe, I would try to get my hands on one of these.

If you want a new instrument, you can certainly come up with what you want from a custom maker like Rath and probably Latzch. M&W can certainly take care of you. It's possible from Edwards or Shires, but their most standard options are more geared to symphonic playing. Kanstul is also very much worth a try, at a lower new horn price point than the others I mention.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by hyperbolica »

If you ignore the bore and the bell, you're right back where you started. The tr-159 is a magnificent instrument. The Olds S-20 adds TIS to the mix. That Amati looks interesting. Options exist that play in the space between bass and tenor without paying for a full on custom rig.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by sf105 »

Have you considered a Conn 72/73? If you get a good one, they can be very responsive and there's enough of them around that it's not a crime to convert one to indy. With the right adjustments they can be very snappy.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by imsevimse »

sf105 wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:15 pm Have you considered a Conn 72/73? If you get a good one, they can be very responsive and there's enough of them around that it's not a crime to convert one to indy. With the right adjustments they can be very snappy.
Older conns are great. The 60h, 70h, 71h, 72h, 73h and the top of the line Elkhart Conn 62h. The trouble is they are not inline. I would not recommend to convert either. I did try a lot of converted old Conns about a year ago in a shop and I must say they totally had lost their charm when they had got their valves changed. All had been given thayers and had been converted to inline. They did not play as good as the old original Conns I had at home. I just questioned myself; Why? It's clear to me if you tamper with those old beuties they might not be the same after. Another blow, a different sound. Maybe that's what you want, but to me they were a disappointment. There were a lot of other good horns in that shop but the old Conns that had been converted were not among those I would chose.

... by the way, a Kanstul 1662, as Gabe mentioned, is indeed a great big band horn. The 1662i is the inline version. Probably as good. I have never tried one but the offset version I have is the best big band bass trombone I own

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by hyperbolica »

Yeah, there are a lot of great options as starting points. Interestingly, I own a 1662i, and it is what I'm running away from. I had a near drowning experience several years back, and my lungs just haven't been the same since. I'm scaling down in part due to air issues.

I'm not adverse to a dependent, in fact the Duo Gravis valveset I'm putting on the Olds is dependent.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Burgerbob »

112H is not a bad choice.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by marccromme »

Catching up, sorry for the time-delay between US and EU. One needs to sleep and look for family as well.

John, I have seen and tried 3 different Amati's over time, and none did meet my expectations. Any student Yamaha is a far better instrument. Just a week ago I have seen and tried an odd Amati tenor with 9" bell and smallish receiver. The partial where all over the place, and response dull. Others had bad slides or/and bad valves.

New suggestions are the Getzen 1052 Eterna (which I don't see much here in Scandinavia)

Gabe - good to know that there are Conn 112H which play light even having normal specs.I shall have an eye on them too.

Also interesting to know that the Yamaha 613 and 613G with 10" bells play brighter than the 613H with 9,5" bell. Our bass trombonist in the Brass Band plays a 613H ( I play Eb tuba there), and indeed the 613H is fine for that job (and has a nice open valve register despite the wrap), but to dark for what I'd like to do.

I never had a Kanstul 1662i in my hands. Might be hard to find used around here, but I'll look out for one.

Thanks for the great input and thoughts, now I have a better idea of what to look for, might they appear on the pre-owned market here.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Bach5G »

I have a Yam 620G that I think is light and snappy but is dependent. I was able to compare it with an 830 and a Yeo and I preferred it. Pro horn, less expensive than either.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by marccromme »

Pre59 wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:59 am Could this be adapted?

https://uk.wessex-tubas.com/collections ... ier-pbf555
The Wessex superbone. Well, I am almost there, playing a Wessex Yamaha 830 clone, which I find to dark for Big Band, because the three other bones play peashooters. But I have an extra 0.562 slide for it, hmm, I might try to find a 0.547 upper iner+outer and try to install that, building a 0.547 / 0.62 slide for it. If it turns out bad (as Gabe mentioned it could), I only lost a slide I don't use anyhow. Might be worth a try.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by JohnL »

GabeLangfur wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:59 pmAlso, don't worry too much about bell diameter - it's more about taper than ultimate diameter.
This bears repeating. There's several different 9" bells out there, and the only place they're the same is the diameter. The Olds 9" S-20/S-23 bell is most definitely not the same as the 9" S-22/S-24G/P-22/P-24G bell. Hopefully someone familiar with Holton will verify this, but I would certainly be surprised if the Holton 9" tenor bell is the same as the one used on the the TR-183.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Matt K »

JohnL wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:08 am
GabeLangfur wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:59 pmAlso, don't worry too much about bell diameter - it's more about taper than ultimate diameter.
This bears repeating. There's several different 9" bells out there, and the only place they're the same is the diameter. The Olds 9" S-20/S-23 bell is most definitely not the same as the 9" S-22/S-24G/P-22/P-24G bell. Hopefully someone familiar with Holton will verify this, but I would certainly be surprised if the Holton 9" tenor bell is the same as the one used on the the TR-183.
I don't know which one I had, but I had a Holton 9" bell mounted for my Shires tenor. My hope was that it would be able to replace the Duo Gravis and I could have one 'do-everyting' type of horn. It didn't serve that function in the least! Sounded nothing like a bass trombone other than the caveat that basically all Bb trombones have a large degree of similarity. Played very similar to other Shires bells I had at the time.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Leisesturm »

Learning lots here. So ... where does mouthpiece choice come into this? Could the o.p. get a 7B clone and lighten it up with a large shank 6.5AL?
(from phone)
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Matt K »

Leisesturm wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:35 am Learning lots here. So ... where does mouthpiece choice come into this? Could the o.p. get a 7B clone and lighten it up with a large shank 6.5AL?
(from phone)
That would be really small, but some 'tenor' pieces 'can' work depending on a few factors. To give some context, I'm primarily a tenor player and use an Elliott XT104N rim, which is nominally the same size as a Bach 3 or Schilke 53 rim rimwise. My sound on that rim is quite mature given that I've been on it for a number of years at this point and while the 114 is developing, it isn't on par with the 104 by a long shot for me.

Sound
Generally speaking, the sound is 'smaller' or perhaps brighter when I Play on the rim size. This is independent of cup depth too, fwiw. I also have a Euph 104N with a K cup which is actually deeper than the cup I use on my LB series, which I normally pair with a 114 rim.

On low range, (below F bottom of bass clef) the sound is much more 'full' on the 114. Above an F (bottom of treble clef), the sound is much more "full" on the 104N. So there is a lot of overlap but depending on the context, I might switch to the smaller rim. If I only have a few notes and its okay for them to really rip, I'll stay on the 114. For example, the last bass gig I did the 4th part for one of the tunes was an odd mix of the 4th trumpet down an octave and being in unison with the lead bone... above the 3rd player. Was a standard Basie style chart with a lot of contrast. Parts that were 8vb trumpet were the softs, unisons were the louds and they went up to B natural - middle of treble. If I would have had to have stayed there or had to blend? Yeah probably would have used the 104 but the 114 can rip for a limited amount of time so I just kept it out.

Feel
Playing lower is just about as easy on both of the rims given the same relative cup depth for me down to about C. The pedal range is where the 114 becomes much easier to control. I have a much wider range of colors to choose from but if 'brighter' i swhat you're going for then the 104 has no problems for me down to about G where is tarts to peter out. The 114 I can go comfortably about a fifth lower, to pedal D.

Dexterity/Flexibility
114 wins hands down at that in the lower register. It takes me much longer to switch between notes in the lower register (below bottom of the staff F). If I'm doing quick, scalar runs that need to have both a little volume to them as well as tight articulation? Not even close. 114 wins hands down.

However, in the higher register, I start to lose flexibility above bottom line F (treble clef) on the 114, whereas on the smaller of the rims I'm quite comfortable up to the octave above that.


Tl;dr, playing something smaller does make a difference , just depends on which tradeoffs you're going for. Depending on what you're using for bass, you might find using the same rim and a shallower cup to give you something closer to the results you want. Or perhaps going a little smaller rim and cup, but not all the way down to tenor sizes (smaller than 1.04").

Don't overlook leadpipe in all of this either... both of these are, of course, complicating. Ultimately it depends on how far into the weeds you want to go!
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by marccromme »

Leisesturm wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:35 am Learning lots here. So ... where does mouthpiece choice come into this? Could the o.p. get a 7B clone and lighten it up with a large shank 6.5AL?
(from phone)
Oh no, that would definitely not work, way to small for fluent work in double-valve register and down to pedal F. Plus funny intonation on most bass trombones.

I don't want to go smaller than Laskey 85MD (similar to Bach 1 1/4 or Schilke 59) due to the demands in modern Big Band charts for fast and at times powerful low range.

Ideally I would like the easy and clarity similar to a tenor horn in the high range, as some of the 4th trombone charts go up to 8th and 9th partial, but such an instrument does not exists.

So. it's about knowing which bass trombone to look for which can give a good compromise. There have been many good suggestions in this thread, a warm thanks to all contributers for that!
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Bonearzt »

hyperbolica wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:28 am @Bonearzt, doesn't the 181 have a huge 10" bell?
Mine is 9 5/8", but I think newer bells were larger.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by imsevimse »

marccromme wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:09 pm
Leisesturm wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:35 am Learning lots here. So ... where does mouthpiece choice come into this? Could the o.p. get a 7B clone and lighten it up with a large shank 6.5AL?
(from phone)
Oh no, that would definitely not work, way to small for fluent work in double-valve register and down to pedal F. Plus funny intonation on most bass trombones.

I don't want to go smaller than Laskey 85MD (similar to Bach 1 1/4 or Schilke 59) due to the demands in modern Big Band charts for fast and at times powerful low range.

Ideally I would like the easy and clarity similar to a tenor horn in the high range, as some of the 4th trombone charts go up to 8th and 9th partial, but such an instrument does not exists.

So. it's about knowing which bass trombone to look for which can give a good compromise. There have been many good suggestions in this thread, a warm thanks to all contributers for that!
If you want a double valve with easy high range that blends with small tenors and can due with a dependent you could try a Conn 73h. It has a good low register and in the high register it is very tenor-ish. I think the profile of the bell is the secret. The bell throat is much smaller than other basses. It is so small you need a different cup since the regular bass trombone cup do not fit. Check it out!

Personally I have no problem with the valves. I had mine changed to have the second valve in D. Lars Gerdt who has a repair shop and builds brass instruments made me a beautiful slide that fits this horn perfectly. My valves are still controlled with the thumb which has rolls. A good improvement would be to convert the second valve to use the middle finger. Oh yes, the single valved Conn 71h shares the same bell profile but except those two I have no other bass who has a bell throat like this.

You could try a Bach 2G if you want a smaller mouthpiece that still works.

/Tom
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by GabrielRice »

marccromme wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:09 pm I don't want to go smaller than Laskey 85MD (similar to Bach 1 1/4 or Schilke 59) due to the demands in modern Big Band charts for fast and at times powerful low range.

Ideally I would like the easy and clarity similar to a tenor horn in the high range, as some of the 4th trombone charts go up to 8th and 9th partial, but such an instrument does not exists.
Well...it will never be easy to play in that register in the way it can be on a small bore tenor, but you can get clarity and facility up there by practicing in the right way.

Understanding your embouchure function and the subtle changes of angle necessary for the different registers is a huge part of that. Doug Elliott has been very helpful to me on this subject, in just a couple of short sessions. Sam Burtis also addresses this very directly in different ways.

I like to use the Brad Edwards Lip Slurs to practice these things, and I challenge myself for the high register, but just as importantly for the register just below that. The foundation for high register facility is established by finding ease and smoothness in lip slurs just above the bass clef staff.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Bassbonechandler »

I've actually noticed from going to a schilke 58 to a laskey 93d that my high notes are actually sounding better than they did before. Of course that's with consistent practice in the high register.
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Cotboneman
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Cotboneman »

Matt K wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:18 pm The Getzen 1052 is actually pretty good at that sort of thing. I have one though its being cut up a million different ways to make a custom horn for me. Bt if I hadn't stumbled upon the exact right set of components at the right time I'd have been fine keeping it. I used it mostly for big band stuff. Light but not too light, still has a good low range but the high range exists too etc.
Agreed. Eterna line Getzens also come with three leadpipes to customize them a little bit. Only the 1062 is a duel bore slide though. I have played on a 1062 for twenty years. Those horns, with the introduction of Getzen's custom lines have been re-classified as Intermediates, but they are still pricey compared to some of the imports coming in, which are of varying quality.

You'll have to do some searching to find them used.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by Burgerbob »

Laetzsch makes a great lightweight bass. Be ready to spend a cool $12k or more on it, though.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by marccromme »

Just an update: I found a nice, used Conn 112H, which had been rebuild with a Hagmann valve section. In good condition and perfectly working order, except for the need of a spring repair and valve cleaning/adjustment. Slide is perfect.which can be used

It blows very easy and snappy, albeit with a dark tonal color. Nice open double-valve register, nice high range too. So, its not exactly the very light and bright bass trombone I was seeking for, but it plays very nice an snappy.

And the best: it came with the original inline valve section on the side, which can be used if/when a smaller Conn 70 or 72 pops up on the market.

Thanks for your valuable input! best, Marc
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by sf105 »

marccromme wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:20 pm And the best: it came with the original inline valve section on the side, which can be used if/when a smaller Conn 70 or 72 pops up on the market.
Glad you found a good horn but, please, do not cut a 70H bell section to make it inline. Kinda negates the point of the horn and the supply is finite.
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by marccromme »

sf105 wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:25 am Glad you found a good horn but, please, do not cut a 70H bell section to make it inline. Kinda negates the point of the horn and the supply is finite.
There is no need to cut a 70H. I found a King 7B as well, which I probably will prefer over the Conn 112H for commercial music when having restored/cleaned/descaled it. It is a well playing horn, not as great as the Conn 112H, but lighter in tonal color and quite fine for Big Band.

The Conn is larger in sound, a great horn for big symphonic sound or Brass band. And plays so easy!
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Re: Lightweight bright indy bass trombone for big band ?

Post by RConrad »

marccromme wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:13 pm Catching up, sorry for the time-delay between US and EU. One needs to sleep and look for family as well.

John, I have seen and tried 3 different Amati's over time, and none did meet my expectations. Any student Yamaha is a far better instrument. Just a week ago I have seen and tried an odd Amati tenor with 9" bell and smallish receiver. The partial where all over the place, and response dull. Others had bad slides or/and bad valves.

New suggestions are the Getzen 1052 Eterna (which I don't see much here in Scandinavia)

Gabe - good to know that there are Conn 112H which play light even having normal specs.I shall have an eye on them too.

Also interesting to know that the Yamaha 613 and 613G with 10" bells play brighter than the 613H with 9,5" bell. Our bass trombonist in the Brass Band plays a 613H ( I play Eb tuba there), and indeed the 613H is fine for that job (and has a nice open valve register despite the wrap), but to dark for what I'd like to do.

I never had a Kanstul 1662i in my hands. Might be hard to find used around here, but I'll look out for one.

Thanks for the great input and thoughts, now I have a better idea of what to look for, might they appear on the pre-owned market here.
I was looking at an Amati but haven't been able to find many opinions on them. As I'll only have $1200 to spend on a bass in the spring I was nervous about getting one and finding out the slide is horrible. It's too bad as I was thinking the slightly smaller bore would make it good for use in the University pep band and I just like usual trombones.
Robert C
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