Yamaha V valve

Post Reply
JonTheCadet
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 4:21 am

Yamaha V valve

Post by JonTheCadet » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:07 pm

Hi all,

My recent ebay hunting has led me to this oddity:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-YSL-882 ... SwfNpbLCdK

The 2nd picture shows some kind of cylindrical tubing, whereas the 3rd shows a rotor. 3rd photo is false I believe.

It also appears to be modular, with the screws on the bell. I wonder who makes bells for Yamaha except Yamaha themselves. A bit of googling shows that this trombone is only sold in Japan.

$3200 is quite expensive for a used tenor. Then again, this seller is asking $2700 for a valveless Boosey G bass and $2400 for a Jupiter intermediate tenor.

What do you think? To me it resembles a piston valve with the side tubing exits. Maybe a failed attempt to step into the modular/professional market?

Speaking of oddities, what happened to the Shires twin valve?

Regards,

Jon
User avatar
Matt K
Posts: 848
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by Matt K » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:07 pm

The third picture is of a Bach 42 I believe. Much more heavily used as well. Looks like 4 and 5 might also be for the Bach.
$3200 is quite expensive for a used tenor. Then again, this seller is asking $2700 for a valveless Boosey G bass and $2400 for a Jupiter intermediate tenor.
Generally speaking, it seems that used horns fetch more over in Japan than they do in the states so the pricing isn't too surprising to me.
It also appears to be modular, with the screws on the bell. I wonder who makes bells for Yamaha except Yamaha themselves. A bit of googling shows that this trombone is only sold in Japan.
Most makers (I can't think of any?) that are modular are also not compatible with other brands. The modular bell thing was kicked off by the Thayer valves which sort of require t so you can perform maintenance on them. That later morphed into the idea you could swap bell sand other stuff out. I vaguely remember seeing the patent for the "V" valve and recall it having some similarities to the Thayers, although I'm not an engineer so I don't recall of they were anything more than they turned on a different plane than rotors do. In either case, this might be modular by necessity of cleaning just like the Thayers. Could also be an aftermarket mod and the original owner intended or had other bells to be used with it.

Few people have tried it over here, but there are a few members that I know of that got to try one out at ITF a few years ago and hopefully they'll chime in.

I haven't spoken with anyone at Shires n quite some time - my understanding was they had a prototype (of the 'twin valve') at ITF? Sometimes they have prototypes that never come to fruition but they don't take it apart because it's already built! A few examples of that are a "travel bone" they had a few years ago that had a loop in the tuning slide that allowed for the handslide to be a little smaller but I believe let you retain a stock valve section. They also had a BOSC valve prototype one year that I recall they did end up selling as a one-off. I heard some pretty positive things about it from people so maybe it is in the works to be offered as a stock option!
norbie2018
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:10 am

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by norbie2018 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:42 pm

Horn guys had one for sale for quite a long time, but I brief perusal of their site shows it no more. I remember reading that the valve was detachable to enable cleaning, not for swapping out bells.
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by Burgerbob » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:50 pm

The V was only sold in Japan.

All the Japanese sellers have crazy high prices for their used horns, even beaters... nothing new there.

As said above, all axial valved instruments have to be taken apart... axially! So the bell/attachment has to come apart in that direction, hence the removable bits. Bach was a bit lazy with this and the bell stays stuck to the valve casing on 42Ts.

I played with a guy in San Francisco that owned one. Good horn, and he sounded great on it.
Bass Trombone
DL Band
SLO Symphony
GabeLangfur
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:20 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by GabeLangfur » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:10 pm

Shires is still working on the twin valve. I'm pretty sure it will go into production.
User avatar
Neo Bri
Posts: 685
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:30 am
Location: Netherwhere
Contact:

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by Neo Bri » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:45 pm

I saw one of those V valves in Japan in 2005. So they've been around since at least then. I didn't play it.
________________________________________________________
Get the word out! Make www.trombonechat.com our community!
Kbiggs
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by Kbiggs » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:04 pm

It was Yamaha’s attempt to create a valve that minimizes the effect that a valve has on the trombone.

Ever since people started putting valves on trombones, the quest has been for a valve that minimizes the difference between the “open” horn (no valves) and the valved horn. Many things have been tried: smaller valves, opening the ports, rewrapping the crooks, Thayer valves, Kanstul CR valves, K valves (Bach), Miller valves, Shires valves (various: Flo Thru, dual-bore, etc.), Hagmann valves, the Conn-Lindberg CL valve, and many others. Some work better than others. The end goal is to have a valve that feels like the open horn even when actuated, i.e., as little difference as possible between the Bb instrument and the F, G, Gb, Eb, or D instrument.

At some point, the desire to create a new valve will reach a point of diminishing returns. Just putting more mass onto a trombone at a critical point in the tapered tubing affects the feel, response, and sound. Period. Besides, some players have found that a valve when actuated actually helps the feel, response, and sound. Some players are even going back to traditional or less radical valves designs to achieve that feel, response, and sound.

There is no one valve that is inherently superior. It’s really about the soft machine, the player. After all, even a mediocre player with the finest, most refined and expensive equipment will still sound like a mediocre player.
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
User avatar
sirisobhakya
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:04 pm
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Contact:

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by sirisobhakya » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:02 pm

The valve rotates around its longitudinal axis. There is two “open” ports at, say, 3 O’clock position of the casing, and other two at around 12 O’clock position for the F side. Both open and F side have “kinks” at the valve, although not as tight as in a rotor, but in turn it consumes space for the gooseneck. You can Google for its pictures and the mechanism is quite obvious if you look at the horn from behind the valve.

Edit: this is what it looks like from the other side of the valve:

https://goo.gl/images/mMsQxE

The tube bit that looks like a slug attaching itself on the valve body (sorry for the comparison) is the tubing for open side.

Is it good? I haven’t tried it myself (although I would love to), but the fact that the YSL-882V(G) has such a high selling price (JPY450K/470K, while the YBL-830 bass sells at JPY500K) and still remains in the catalogue does say something about it. Or maybe just Yamaha doesn’t want to let their own valve go.

The price is too high, though, even if a bit. I saw many in Japanese Yahoo Auction around JPY150K~250K, which is roughly translated to around $1200~2300.
Chaichan Wiriyaswat
Alumni & Instructor - Kasetsart University Laboratory School Symphonic Band, Bangkok Thailand
JonTheCadet
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 4:21 am

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by JonTheCadet » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:00 am

Matt K wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:07 pm
Most makers (I can't think of any?) that are modular are also not compatible with other brands. The modular bell thing was kicked off by the Thayer valves which sort of require it so you can perform maintenance on them. That later morphed into the idea you could swap bell sand other stuff out. I vaguely remember seeing the patent for the "V" valve and recall it having some similarities to the Thayers, although I'm not an engineer so I don't recall of they were anything more than they turned on a different plane than rotors do. In either case, this might be modular by necessity of cleaning just like the Thayers. Could also be an aftermarket mod and the original owner intended or had other bells to be used with it.

Few people have tried it over here, but there are a few members that I know of that got to try one out at ITF a few years ago and hopefully they'll chime in.

I haven't spoken with anyone at Shires in quite some time - my understanding was they had a prototype (of the 'twin valve') at ITF? Sometimes they have prototypes that never come to fruition but they don't take it apart because it's already built! A few examples of that are a "travel bone" they had a few years ago that had a loop in the tuning slide that allowed for the handslide to be a little smaller but I believe let you retain a stock valve section. They also had a BOSC valve prototype one year that I recall they did end up selling as a one-off. I heard some pretty positive things about it from people so maybe it is in the works to be offered as a stock option!
With that little support around these V valves, I think maintenance would be a pain in the ___, regardless of it being modular or not.

For those Shires creations, how exactly does the 'travel bone' work? Is it some sort of detachable outer handslide?
Burgerbob wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:50 pm
As said above, all axial valved instruments have to be taken apart... axially! So the bell/attachment has to come apart in that direction, hence the removable bits. Bach was a bit lazy with this and the bell stays stuck to the valve casing on 42Ts.

I played with a guy in San Francisco that owned one. Good horn, and he sounded great on it.
Didn't Bach used to have a 'clamp'-like screw on their bells? My teacher has a 42BO and it had something sticking out of the 2 main braces. He claimed it was second-hand and he owned it for 20 years.
Kbiggs wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:04 pm
It was Yamaha’s attempt to create a valve that minimizes the effect that a valve has on the trombone.

Ever since people started putting valves on trombones, the quest has been for a valve that minimizes the difference between the “open” horn (no valves) and the valved horn. Many things have been tried: smaller valves, opening the ports, rewrapping the crooks, Thayer valves, Kanstul CR valves, K valves (Bach), Miller valves, Shires valves (various: Flo Thru, dual-bore, etc.), Hagmann valves, the Conn-Lindberg CL valve, and many others. Some work better than others. The end goal is to have a valve that feels like the open horn even when actuated, i.e., as little difference as possible between the Bb instrument and the F, G, Gb, Eb, or D instrument.

At some point, the desire to create a new valve will reach a point of diminishing returns. Just putting more mass onto a trombone at a critical point in the tapered tubing affects the feel, response, and sound. Period. Besides, some players have found that a valve when actuated actually helps the feel, response, and sound. Some players are even going back to traditional or less radical valves designs to achieve that feel, response, and sound.

There is no one valve that is inherently superior. It’s really about the soft machine, the player. After all, even a mediocre player with the finest, most refined and expensive equipment will still sound like a mediocre player.
I assume that goes down to valve sealings and straight vs. curved gooseneck. There isn't many valves that can replicate a straight gooseneck. Thayer valves tilts at 20 degrees, whereas Lindberg(Minick?), Meinlschmidt radial, Miller, Bach balanced and pistons allows a straight(er) flow.
sirisobhakya wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:02 pm
The valve rotates around its longitudinal axis. There is two “open” ports at, say, 3 O’clock position of the casing, and other two at around 12 O’clock position for the F side. Both open and F side have “kinks” at the valve, although not as tight as in a rotor, but in turn it consumes space for the gooseneck. You can Google for its pictures and the mechanism is quite obvious if you look at the horn from behind the valve.

Edit: this is what it looks like from the other side of the valve:

https://goo.gl/images/mMsQxE

The tube bit that looks like a slug attaching itself on the valve body (sorry for the comparison) is the tubing for open side.

Is it good? I haven’t tried it myself (although I would love to), but the fact that the YSL-882V(G) has such a high selling price (JPY450K/470K, while the YBL-830 bass sells at JPY500K) and still remains in the catalogue does say something about it. Or maybe just Yamaha doesn’t want to let their own valve go.

The price is too high, though, even if a bit. I saw many in Japanese Yahoo Auction around JPY150K~250K, which is roughly translated to around $1200~2300.
Who knows, perhaps there is a high demand of V valves in Japan.

Some googling has told me this isn't Yamaha's only 'easily-maintained' trombone:

https://www.facebook.com/TheBrassArk/ph ... =3&theater

A small-bell tenor-bass? A 822G prototype?

The V valve is definitely too long to be used in a bass independently, but it might work dependently.

Regards,

Jon


Mattk EDIT: Fixed URL Tag in facebook link
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by Burgerbob » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:41 am

The C instruments (36C, 36CO, 42C, 42CO) have those bell mounts. The Thayer horns have OE Thayer bell mounts in a modern style.
Bass Trombone
DL Band
SLO Symphony
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by BGuttman » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:25 am

Note that a lot of Brass Ark horns are customized and not "stock". Brad Close is Noah's technician and he's quite a whiz at making specialties.

The Shires "Travel Bone" (Ralph Sauer model) has a screw bell and fits in a flat case that goes in overhead compartments on planes better.

We hve DGittleson working on an instrument with a bass botr but Db length hence a more compact shape. His valve combinations, while quite sensible for a Db instrument, are different from "normal" bass trombone setups. Is it an improvement? Who knows.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
User avatar
Matt K
Posts: 848
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by Matt K » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:19 am

With that little support around these V valves, I think maintenance would be a pain in the ___, regardless of it being modular or not.

For those Shires creations, how exactly does the 'travel bone' work? Is it some sort of detachable outer handslide?
Well, the current one is the Ralph Sauer model, as Bruce mentioned. It's rather straightforward: it has a screwbell and the other components are stock parts. (The 'default' setup is a T2547, dual-bore rotor, drawn yellow slide, and the RS bell which is some variation of a T7RLWT7 - but the details are not toatlly detailed other than the obvious, it's a screwbell made of red-brass and has a soldered bell bead).

That said, over a decade ago - I want to say around 2003? They had a prototype at ITF that predated even the Tru-bore which came out a few years later. I have the picture of it floating around somewhere. I should try to dig that up. The basic idea was that it was a 5 or 6 position handslide. The valve and bell were stock components I believe. The tuning slide made up for the difference in the handslide by having a little loop from the valve to the bend of the tuning slide. I'm not aware of them ever even selling that project but it's possible - and indeed would love to hear about it if someone does now own it. I quite liked the concept. Sort of like a built in counterweight but I can also see why it never took off so to speak, especially without being able to play low F or C without the valve.

Didn't Bach used to have a 'clamp'-like screw on their bells? My teacher has a 42BO and it had something sticking out of the 2 main braces. He claimed it was second-hand and he owned it for 20 years.
Yes, that's correct. You'll sometimes hear them called "wingnut" style. The 42C and 36C (no longer offered) use the wingnuts. The thayer valve and now 47 "artisan" models now have threaded bell nuts instead of the older wingnut style clamps. It wasn't uncommon for some time to use the Bach parts and there's nothing wrong with them per se but people including myself definitely prefer the threaded nuts as connectors.
I assume that goes down to valve sealings and straight vs. curved gooseneck. There isn't many valves that can replicate a straight gooseneck. Thayer valves tilts at 20 degrees, whereas Lindberg(Minick?), Meinlschmidt radial, Miller, Bach balanced and pistons allows a straight(er) flow.
It's hard to tease out the reason since there are so many variables. Among things that may or may not play a difference are how many braces are used to secure the tubing, how thick those braces are (see Edwards harmonic pillar for an example on the heavier side!), shape of the airway passage, angle of the airway passage, burrs (excess solder) in the airway passage and/or tubing, weight (or even presence) of valve caps, material of valve caps, material of tubing, material of bracing, the size of the ports, the angle of the ports (e.g. open wrap vs closed wrap rotors), slide receiver, overall size of the valve itself (more or less tapered tubing in the neckpipe after the valve itself), so on and so forth.

And, of course the most important - the rest of the horn. I tend to like Thayers, for example, on heavy bells and rotors on lighter bells. So - assuming that extremely simplistic statement is true for a moment - then that might mean that certain characteristics of Thayers are more present on heavier bells than on lighter bells. In other words, you can't say that Thayers have a certain characteristic because the influence of that characteristic might be diminished or exaggerated by other components - and by different amounts for different people. The combinations to be able to attribute something to even a valve let alone certain parts of it are pretty staggering.

Some googling has told me this isn't Yamaha's only 'easily-maintained' trombone:

https://www.facebook.com/TheBrassArk/ph ... =3&theater
Rotary horns don't have any need to come apart because you can remove the rotor from the casing without disassembling the casing. On thayers, because they are actuated axially, you have to remove the top so that you can take the casing out for cleaning.

In this case, this is just a modular horn. Brassark had a really good blurb on it. Basically Yamaha will make custom stuff if you have the bread. This customer, memory serving, wanted a do-everything type of tenor and so they had a neckpipe, single valve, and dependent second valve added to it. The mechanism they use to detach the second valve is very similar to the Doug Yeo model, which also has a removable second valve. Doug Yeo did it because he didn't want the additional weight when it wasn't necessary. Also he seems to be able to detect a difference in sound when the valve is detached vs when it is not; I'm not quite that sensitive but it makes sense that he is that attuned to the slight differences in a single vs dependent setup.
User avatar
sirisobhakya
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:04 pm
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Contact:

Re: Yamaha V valve

Post by sirisobhakya » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:48 pm

JonTheCadet wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:00 am
Who knows, perhaps there is a high demand of V valves in Japan.
I doubt that. During 5 1/2 years in Japan I have seen many bands, student to serious semi-professional, but have yet to see the V-valve live. Yamaha also mostly promotes the 882, 882O, and 882OR these days. Maybe in other areas it is a bit different, I don't know (Hiroshima is not that big a city comparing to Tokyo or Osaka). But based on observation on Japanese Yahoo Auction site, it is easier to find a secondhand Shires than a secondhand 882V.
Chaichan Wiriyaswat
Alumni & Instructor - Kasetsart University Laboratory School Symphonic Band, Bangkok Thailand
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”