King 2b Identify

[hettbone]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could help identify this trombone. I’m asking for a friend and he doesn’t really know much about it and I’m not an equipment buff myself. I’m mostly curious about the year. It’s probably a 2b but I know there are many versions.

The horn is 2b-like although I can’t comfirm the bore size. Seems dual bore. It has yellow laqer, nickel slide (wth yellow brass crook) and has no special engraving on the bell other than the king logo so it seems kind of bootlegged to me. Maybe they don't all have engraving on the bell, I don't know.

Serial number is 10146 and I looked up the serial numbers for king but it doesn’t add up to me. According to this website: http://www.hnwhite.com/Serial%20Numbers.htm it would date it really early in the 20th century and that’s obviously way off. The horn doesn’t really look that old. Laqer is still pretty yellow.

Another side note is it plays really sharp like one of those Jiggs Whigham trombones with the shortened tuning slides. I doubt it’s one of those though. My guess is that it’s from the 70s-80s but I don’t trust myself on this.

Any help would be appreciated. Let me know if there’s anything else I could add or do that will help. Thanks.

[BGuttman]

If it is indeed from around the period you mention, the engraving on the bell should be "King" and "2102.

King hit 999999 some time in the mid 1980s but I thought they started back with 100000.

Note that hnwhite covers King trombones up to 1965 when it was sold to Seeburg. It's great for very old horns but not so good for newer ones.

[Kingfan]

What Brucew said. Take another look at the bell and look for "2102" or some other identifier.

[hettbone]

Thanks for the replies. I took another look at the bell and it only says “King”. No numbering on the bell that I can see unless I’m missing something.

[doctortrombone]

You can check the bore with a mouthpiece. If it goes further into the lower inner leg than the upper inner leg, it's dual bore. I'm not positive about this, but I'm pretty sure there were 606 student models made with nickel outers and curved bell braces. Could be one of those.

[Kingfan]

Interesting. Looks like the logo engraving on my 2B but I have the model number and other engraving. The Tempo step-up horn had curved braces from the factory. Like doctortrombone said, a check of the inner slide tubes can determine if it is dual bore. Does your friend have an original King case? Tempos usually came with different cases than 2Bs.

[BGuttman]

Let's also not rule out a counterfeit. There is something not right for this to be the age claimed

The only kings I'm aware of with 5 digit serials predate the 2B by a decade.

[hettbone]

Sorry for my spotty responses. I’ve been real busy lately. Anyway, I tried testing the slide’s bore size with the mouthpiece and it seems like it’s a dual bore. The trombone did come with (what seems like) an original case as well as an old warranty slip and instruction manual. I’ll post pictures. Thanks for the info so far.

[Vegastokc]

Wow, this is odd. It's got to be a 2B or Tempo right?
Think the Jiggs model guess might be close too.

Hettbone, anything on the slide near the lead pipe? Some of the 600's models had a stamp there.
Nice modern coffin case too.
Either way, looks like a decent jazz horn.
Of course, like Kingfan, I may be a little biased towards Kings...

[mrdeacon]

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?se ... %22King%22

If you look at the engraving images on hornucopia you can see that your "King" logo matches that of the 70s "rope" era engraving. Sure looks similar to the engraving on the late 70s King 3B I had.

[cctbone]

I have one like this for sale on eBay. All the parts interchange with a 2b. The bores measure .491.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 3923590045

I received a message from someone saying this is a fake.

Is this a fake? I don’t want to sell fake stuff.

[tbonesullivan]

Is there anything engraved INSIDE the bell? I know they did that in the 90s.

That certainly doesn't look like a fake king trombone. It's got the correct cork barrels, curved brace, reversed tuning slide, etc.

[cctbone]

There is no engraving inside the bell

[tbonesullivan]

It also has that 5 number serial number, within 5 numbers of the previous example.

Did you measure both bores? I haven't seen any 2b's that have a .491 single bore, except the Jiggs Whigham model

However those nickel silver cork barrels and that shape are ONLY seen on the king professional trombones. The lack of drawn-in oversleeves on the outer slide is interesting.

[ExZacLee]

how worn is the cork barrel where the serial number is? may be missing a number...

are the serial numbers located in multiple places on the horn?

I've seen some kings with really minimal engraving. not many - they're rare.

if both inner tubes measure .491, it might be an early jiggs - i'ver heard rumors that straight 491s were made on occasion before the jiggs model but I've never seen one.

KMI horn - so after '65. the logo and counterweight looks like it's from the 70's, maybe early 80's?

[cctbone]

The serial number is stamped in 4 different spots on the tuning slide, bell connector, inners and outers in spots close to where the older 2b serial number stamps are stamped.... and it’s definitely 5 digits.

A friend of mine here in the SF Bay Area had another one (that I’ve also played) of these Kings that was very similar. My friend said he was the second owner and that original owner had bought the horn special order from King.