Is the use of an small shank with adapter negative compared to using a large shank?

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imsevimse
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Is the use of an small shank with adapter negative compared to using a large shank?

Post by imsevimse » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:33 pm

When I did the switch to a large bore Conn 88h in the 80-ies I used an adapter to be able to play my small shank mouthpiece. I only did this until I bought a large shank, and have always believed there must be some disadvantage to use an adapter. Are there any?

I have experimented a lot with both small shank w. adapter mouthpieces and large shank mouthpieces in large bore trombones. I have used the exact same model of mouthpiece and can not see there is a significant difference. At least nothing negative about using an adapter. Should it be a difference? Am I missing something here?

As a comment to the ongoing thread about Remington and Moorse tapered Conns. I do experience a difference when using the aproprate mouthpiece for an old Conn to fit a Remington taper compared to a Moorse tapered mouthpiece. A Remington mouthpiece match seems to be more important than small shank/adapter versus large shank differences in general.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
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Matt K
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Re: Is the use of an small shank with adapter negative compared to using a large shank?

Post by Matt K » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:54 pm

I've tried a few adapters in a/b testing to see if I noticed a difference. From my perspective, it's quit an enormous difference in feel. I was able to switch between basically identical components on a medium bore horn using various permutations of:

Shires M25 #2
Shires MT25 #2

Elliott 104N/XT E w/ E3, E4, E5, and E8 shanks
Seeral adapters though I don't actually recall the names of them. I still have them so if its' important I could eventually dig them out.

Basically I would try the large receiver and an E8 then an E5 with the adapter etc. Universally, the best playing one for a 'classical' sound was a large shank receiver and the E8 shank. When I would then use any of the small shanks, the result was an almost airy, unfocused sound. Switching out the leadpipe to the small shank receiver but still utilizing the same shank always resulted in reversing the lack of focus and, indeed, made it more focused than the large receiver (which isn't a terribly surprising finding). I would honestly question the quality of the receivers I had if it weren't for me having acquired around 4 at the time and all of them had the same result.

It is possible that there may be something about Shires leadpipe receivers that doesn't allow for them to seat all the way, but they seemed to be inserted around the appropriate depth (ca. 1"). It's also possible the difference would be less noticeable for a mouthpiece that had an identical backbore (say, Doug made a large shank E5 or something) you might notice less of a difference that I did. However, I don't know about that as you'd expect the result to be less drastic then between the leadpipes.

Now granted, take that with a grain of salt, I think it's been about 2 or 3 years since I did that experiment (or even had any of that exact set of equipment). If I were to do it today, my results might be quite different than they are now.
imsevimse
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Is the use of an small shank with adapter negative compared to using a large shank?

Post by imsevimse » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:04 am

I have compared my small shank Karl Hammond mouthpieces 12M, 12ML, 12L and 12MXL with my large shank 12M, 12ML, 12L and 12MXL. They have the same specifications. I understand there must be a difference in the backbore because the small shanks are "small shank" but the use of an adapter is not causing any turbulence problem or unfocused sound for me. I guess it is a slight difference in the backbore but nothing negative I can notice. It would be interesting to hear what Doug think about adaptors?

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
Doug Elliott
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Re: Is the use of an small shank with adapter negative compared to using a large shank?

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:35 am

The backbore makes a huge difference in the way a mouthpiece plays.

I guess it depends on the mouthpiece, the adaptor, ...and you, and the horn. It may play fine but it's not the same and it can't be.
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