Tenor Sackbut : which one the best ?

[barclem]

Hello,
Professionnal singer, I’m playing actually a Tenor sackbut Model Hainlein made by Cristian Bosc in Chambave near Aosta (IT) and I’m trying in comparaison the same Model made by Egger in Basel ( the Egger’s Bell is 98 mm and the Bosc’d one 11,5 mm) : a quite big difference in sound : the Egger does sound like a narrow small Tenor voice and the Bosc’one like a warm rond colored baritone-Tenor voice ! Should this appreciation come only from the sound I’m looking for in my head or the kind of sound transmitted by professors to sackbut students and to sackbuts makers ?
Should I have to accept with my Bosc only second or third parts in Renaissance ensemble or to play solo Early or better late barock solo or ensemble music ? And to buy a Renaissance sackbut ?
What your expérience with this kind of instruments and perhaps also with the Meinl one ?

[BGuttman]

This did not belong in a post selling a Holton TR-158. Nor does it belong in Classifieds. Can some of our Early Music experts help him?

[LeTromboniste]

So, the original instrument that your sackbut is copied after (which I believe is the same original as that offered by Meinl and Egger as their "wide bore" model), is suspected to be a bass sackbut that was cut down to tenor length. It has in any case a much wider bore and bell than on most surviving tenors and closer to those on long basses. I personally wouldn't want to use that on solo or virtuosic chamber music – I'm not saying it can't be done, it just would not be the most comfortable thing, and I don't think I could do the type of playing I do on one of those. It's probably still a very good instrument and you can learn a lot playing it, so I don't think you necessarily need to change it.

I will say that I don't know of any serious, professional player who plays on a "wide bore" model. The most commonly found instruments in the field are the Hainlein model from Egger and the Drewelwecz or Erasmus Schnitzer models from Meinl, and for those who play extra-historical instruments, the "Filarmonia"/anonymous Italian model from Aron Vajna or the Anton Schnitzer from Egger. All of those are narrower instruments, with bore sizes between 9.5/10.0mm and 10.5/11.0mm, and bells between 95mm and 100mm.

The Egger Hainlein and the Meinl Drewelwecz are both very good choices, very well made instruments, and they are the most widespread. I myself play the Egger Hainlein, but that is personal preference, and I would recommend both without hesitation. In both cases I would recommend getting the bell in 4th position, and if you play it often and plan on taking regular care of it, also the raw brass, unplated inner slide. The instrument Aron makes (also in Basel), copied after an anonymous 16th-century Italian trombone, is absolutely stunning and fantastic, if you can afford it.

There are other makers on the rise, Brad Close (he's also a member on the forum here!) in California and Tony Esparis in Spain. Their prices are a bit lower and more similar to Bosc's. From what I've seen and heard their instruments are well made. I haven't played tenor sackbuts from either maker so I can't personally give a strong opinion for or against them.

[tubaductilis]

Hi there,

Replying as both a sackbut player and a sackbut maker. I'd agree with Max that the "Hainlein" models from Bosc and Meinl are derived from an instrument which was originally a bass that was later cut down to tenor length. In the earlier years of the Early Music revival, they were quite popular, and you can still use them with good success, but they are not the models I would choose. I did play one briefly when I started on sackbut, since it was what they had at the time at my school. Even for "baritone" parts in polyphony, I would now choose a narrower instrument, in some cases adding a crook to play in G.

The Egger you have tried is definitely what I would consider a more "authentic" sackbut and would give more the sort of sound I would aim to produce.

As far as what other sackbut models are good:

The copy of the 1676 Hanns Geyer (Vienna) tenor I build has, over the last decade, finally developed into I think quite a good instrument indeed.

The Meinl "Drewelwecz" and "Erasmus Schnitzer" are both good instruments; the Drewelwecz has been an industry standard for many years, while the Schnitzer model has started to gain traction more recently. There are issues with both models in terms of the historical accuracy.

Egger's Hainlein model is the other industry standard, and is also a very good horn. I also quite liked the Egger "Anton Schnitzer 1679" model, though I don't know any professional colleagues who play them. Personally I'd probably tend to prefer it over the Hainlein, but that's a matter of taste.

Aron Vajna's copy of the anonymous Verona trombone is wonderful. I particularly like the uncompromising copy he has made which also copies the wall thicknesses of the original - it's heavier and a bit more challenging to play fast on, but the sound quality, articulation and feel of the instrument are really something special.

Bosc also builds a sackbut based on the same original, which I have tried and also liked. It's interesting how differently Bosc and Vajna's instruments play, though they are based on the same original. With Bosc, I would only recommend the completely handmade versions, and not the lower budget ones using standard seamless tubing.

I have tried an "Erasmus Schnitzer" model from Tony Esparis. I liked how it played, and very much liked the sound. The craftsmanship is a bit rougher than what you'd get from Meinl or Egger. It's probably a somewhat less predictable instrument than Egger, Meinl or Vajna, but full of character.

Brad Close's sackbut, also based on Drewelwecz, is another good budget option. I tried one he built for a colleague in the US a couple of years ago and again, it's a good horn, and reasonably historically accurate, though again the Drewelwecz original has some issues.

No matter who the maker is, I would absolutely insist on a 4th-position (historical) bell and unplated brass slides. Both make a big difference in terms of how the instrument sounds and feels. Brass slides are a bit higher maintenance, but I really think it's more than worth it.

The best recommendation I can give is try as many different narrow-bore (slide bore 9.5-10,5mm, bell <105mm) instruments as you can and see what feels and sounds good for you. The market has expanded and there are a number of fine instruments available from a variety of makers. The sole caution I'd give is that it's a pity to choose an instrument which makes unnecessary modern compromises. I really think that more historically-built instruments really can be good aids in understanding how to play Renaissance and Baroque music.