Weird Alto Trombone

[Chronos91]

About six months ago, I bought a cheap, used alto trombone just to mess around with sometimes. The seller sold it as an Elkhart TBA100. I didn't think anything of it until I got digital calipers and decided to measure my horns. I measured the slide bore as 0.472 in (compared to 0.51 in that the Conn-Selmer website says). That was grossly off, so I measured a few other points and got these.
Leadpipe - 0.426 in (OD - 0.462 in, quite a lot smaller than the bore)
Slide tenon - 0.487 - 0.488 in
Upper tuning slide - 0.500 in
Lower tuning slide/bell throat - 0.743 - 0.744 in
Bell - 7-1/8 in (compared to listed 6.5 in)

I'm pretty sure I don't have a TBA100. Assuming some slop in my measurements and knowing bore size won't be perfect anyway, I think it's probably the same clone/base as the JP136. If I upgrade down the line, what should I do with it? I only paid $400, but I wouldn't feel right trying to sell it for much at all, especially when people can get the same thing new for like $200-300. Would it even be worth donating anywhere like a school or to a student? It plays fine; the only weird thing I've noticed is that the partials feel wider compared to the corresponding partial on tenor or bass, but for all I know that's just an alto thing or caused by something particular in the setup.

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[harrisonreed]

Where are you getting measurements on Conn's website for a model tba100? That is clearly a Chinese clone instrument, same as the old Selman's and Jin Baos, etc.

I'm pretty sure that is a "Vincent Bach International "Elkhart TBA100"", but only because I've never heard of that company or that model number before

[Doug Elliott]

"Vincent Bach International Ltd" seems to be a British company based in London, appearing to be somehow related to Conn-Selmer but not necessarily. Looks like they're selling Chinese instruments while trying to make it look like they're American made. Sleazy, whether related to Conn-Selmer or not.

[Finetales]

Yep, that's the standard Jin Bao Slokar clone. Not the greatest alto in the world, but they work fine for learning the instrument and light use. I wouldn't donate it to a school personally, these Jin Baos are pretty fragile and probably wouldn't last long in a school environment. Getting it to someone who wants to learn alto trombone (whether selling it or donating it) would be my vote.

[Chronos91]

Where are you getting measurements on Conn's website for a model tba100? That is clearly a Chinese clone instrument, same as the old Selman's and Jin Baos, etc.

I'm pretty sure that is a "Vincent Bach International "Elkhart TBA100"", but only because I've never heard of that company or that model number before

This is the website. Notably, it doesn't show up when you select USA as the country.
https://www.conn-selmer.eu/instruments/ ... nes/100tba

[Chronos91]

Yep, that's the standard Jin Bao Slokar clone. Not the greatest alto in the world, but they work fine for learning the instrument and light use. I wouldn't donate it to a school personally, these Jin Baos are pretty fragile and probably wouldn't last long in a school environment. Getting it to someone who wants to learn alto trombone (whether selling it or donating it) would be my vote.

That makes sense. If the time comes, I'll ask around in the community bands I play in and see if anyone wants to learn it (or knows someone who does).

[harrisonreed]

Where are you getting measurements on Conn's website for a model tba100? That is clearly a Chinese clone instrument, same as the old Selman's and Jin Baos, etc.

I'm pretty sure that is a "Vincent Bach International "Elkhart TBA100"", but only because I've never heard of that company or that model number before

This is the website. Notably, it doesn't show up when you select USA as the country.
https://www.conn-selmer.eu/instruments/ ... nes/100tba

That is the 100TBA, to be fair, but wow! Talk about some unscrupulous business practices.

Didn't know that horn existed. It looks exactly like the slokar clone too.

[LeTromboniste]

Interesting. Clearly just a normal Chinese clone. Didn't know Conn-Selmer sold any of those. They also have a tenor and bass, all three presented as student instruments.

Here's the brand presentation text

Inspired by its namesake, the historic town of Elkhart, Indiana is an area renowned for brass and woodwind manufacturing in the USA. Created in the early 1990’s, the Elkhart range of student instruments provide excellent playability along with solid build quality and a durable finish all at an exceptional price point -making these instruments ideal for the budding musician.

Elkhart offers an entry level twist on a traditional professional level instrument design,taking influence from iconic brands such as Conn and Vincent Bach. In addition to this, as part of the Conn-Selmer group, we’re able to integrate the same design flare and standards inherited from our pro level brands at an affordable price point.

Developed in partnership with UK educators and the highest quality Conn-Selmer manufacturing partners in Eastern Asia, we’ve been able to integrate the valuable manufacturing experience from historic brands such as Conn and Vincent Bach to bring a European focused, entry level range of brass and woodwind instruments to market.

With an ethos of continued development since Elkhart’s inception,the brand is dedicated to creating the best all round beginner instruments -providing an aspiring first step on your musical journey.

I think that's what you have, they just got the specs wrong on the website.

[MStarke]

What I find most irritating is the lack of business ethics here.
It's one thing if some anonymous operation in China copies (at least visually) a good and unique instrument design from Kühnl & Hoyer and maybe some smaller resellers are using it under their name. Not great, but legally probably okay.
But in my view it's a totally different thing of one of the biggest brass instrument manufacturers in the world - with a generally good reputation - does the same thing and obviously doesn't give a sh.. about it.
Okay, you could say basically every American large bore tenor is somehow related to the Conn 8/88h or Bach 42. But from today's perspective these general design ideas are certainly far more common knowledge and less unique than the original Slokar alto.

In the end they also do the exact same thing with using the Chinese copy of the Yamaha B/C student trombone design.

And they most certainly have customers pay a substantial premium for paying from Conn Selmer, while many customers will not know the difference.

https://www.conn-selmer.eu/instruments/ ... /trombones

[spencercarran]

Okay, you could say basically every American large bore tenor is somehow related to the Conn 8/88h or Bach 42. But from today's perspective these general design ideas are certainly far more common knowledge and less unique than the original Slokar alto.

In the end they also do the exact same thing with using the Chinese copy of the Yamaha B/C student trombone design.

There are many modern takes on a 42 or 88H style trombone, but usually with a fair amount of openness that a manufacturer is trying to recreate the general playing characteristics of those classics while bringing some modern spin on it (often better valves or more consistent manufacturing techniques or whatever). That Elkhart bass on the Conn-Selmer EU site is clearly the same cheap knockoff of a discontinued 1980's Yamaha that you see from other disreputable ebay sellers. Entirely different scenario, IMO.

And they most certainly have customers pay a substantial premium for paying from Conn Selmer, while many customers will not know the difference.

Yep, that dishonesty is what strikes me as particularly unsavory here. These aren't even cheaply produced Bach or Conn designs with outsourced labor/assembly, they just plucked whatever rubbish was already floating around the import market and slapped a different name on it.

[harrisonreed]

But in my view it's a totally different thing of one of the biggest brass instrument manufacturers in the world - with a generally good reputation - does the same thing and obviously doesn't give a sh.. about it.

Okay, you could say basically every American large bore tenor is somehow related to the Conn 8/88h or Bach 42. But from today's perspective these general design ideas are certainly far more common knowledge and less unique than the original Slokar alto.

And they most certainly have customers pay a substantial premium for paying from Conn Selmer, while many customers will not know the difference.

https://www.conn-selmer.eu/instruments/ ... /trombones

I think the morally dubious thing here is what is outside of the bold font in your quote. Copying or taking inspiration from the 88H or 42 is exactly the same as copying or taking inspiration from the Slokar stuff. People on this forum just take issue with the fact that someone in China is doing it. Honestly, Shires making a Vintage Elkhart trombone is the same as Jinbao making a Slokar clone. It's just people making trombones, as long as a patent isn't violated.

What we should take issue with is what the workers making these horns are paid, and the marketing involved. If Shires is charging $5000 for a horn that they take $2500 out of as profit , with the rest going to materials, business expenses, and a living wage to the craftsman, that is a different story than Conn charging $1000 for a $50 trombone, taking $950 of profit that isn't going to pay any Conn craftsmen or much business expenses. The $50 to China doesn't pay much at all to the person who made it. These numbers are made up, but are what I'm guessing the economics might be like.

Also, pretending like they had any sort of input in the design or manufacturing, and dropping "designed in cooperation with UK experts" (read 'white people/westerners') as a tag to add credibility. It's not good.

[DougHulme]

These guys are the distributers for Conn Selmer. The dealers they list as agents in the country are all legit - I know several of them. These people are where the UK dealers/shops get their conn Selmer instruments from. I dont know how much latitude they get from Conn Selmer USA to make up their own story but what you see is Conn Selmer USA. Their list of artists are also genuine and you may note feature 'Bones Apart' who we all know and love. With that exception - Not such an illustreous list though as in the States Conn Selmer.

None of which has anything to do with the subject of a chinese horn marketed under the Conn Selmer banner but Conn USA are the parent company so are responsible for what you see, its not some UK rip off that Conn Selmer are unaware of or dont control.

I think I know the guy who does there warranty repairs like one day a week or something I will ask him when I see him next... Doug

[Finetales]

Interestingly, this UK version of Conn also sells a proper compensating euphonium, the 300EH. Yet in the States all we get are ancient school-level American baritones and Bb tubas.

[LeTromboniste]

To Harrison's point, nobody batted an eyelid at Courtois designing their entire range of large bore trombones as explicit clones (not just "inspired by") of the 42 and 88. The Slokar alto design has been around a long while, certainly there is no patent violation here. I agree that there is an issue here but it lies outside of that.

[harrisonreed]

It could be that the person making the slokar copy is actually making a living wage or their needs are met through some sort of subsidy or social system. Maybe the issue to take is whether or not to side with a company that would undercut it's own workers through a completely different system that is able produce products for little more than the cost of raw materials and transportation, to increase profits and/or drive their competitors to do the same.

On the one hand, I can totally see it eating into stateside production and knowhow. On the other hand, the ability to get a decent euph or other instrument that I don't really care much about at a really good price through Wessex is unbelievably tempting.

It's difficult to get a look into the economics of anything made in China. Anyone have insight?

Now to head off to WalMart!

[BGuttman]

WalMart? Chinatown? (Same thing )

I think the issue is that this is a branch of Conn-Selmer selling Chinese instruments without identifying them as such.

Note that the Germans making Courtois instruments are being paid a living wage; which is somewhere around what you would pay in the US.

[LeTromboniste]

WalMart? Chinatown? (Same thing )

I think the issue is that this is a branch of Conn-Selmer selling Chinese instruments without identifying them as such.

Note that the Germans making Courtois instruments are being paid a living wage; which is somewhere around what you would pay in the US.

To be fair they do identify them as such, it's right there in the brand description : built by "manufacturing partners in Eastern Asia". But I do think that is sleazy to say the least. An uninformed customer would not expect Conn Selmer to be selling them a stencil clone.

Also keep in mind that a living wage in China is not the same as a living wage in the US (for that matter, if a family here in Switzerland tried to live on the lowest tier of what is considered "living wage" in the US, they'd be on social welfare. Compared to most of the Western world, the US has atrocious wages and social safety net). The truth is China went from being a third-world country with a dirt-poor populace only twenty years ago to having as large a middle class (slightly over half the population) as the US today. That does not excuse (and is allowed in part by) the dismal human rights conditions there. But the Chinese economic boom as well as their many, many social problems, are way more complex than people not being paid living wages.

[brassmedic]

Interestingly, this UK version of Conn also sells a proper compensating euphonium, the 300EH. Yet in the States all we get are ancient school-level American baritones and Bb tubas.

That looks an awful lot like this Chinese-made one.

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I'd take an ancient school level US made horn over that.

[Doug Elliott]

But it's so shiny and new!

[Finetales]

That looks an awful lot like this Chinese-made one.

I'd take an ancient school level US made horn over that.

Yeah, it's almost certainly Chinese. That said, I've played quite a few Chinese compensating euphoniums and they all played circles around every American-style baritone/euphonium that I've played (and I've played a lot!), so I would still choose that over Conn-Selmer's US offerings. But I can see why C-S wouldn't want their top of the range euph to be Chinese in their horn market.

[spencercarran]

WalMart? Chinatown? (Same thing )

I think the issue is that this is a branch of Conn-Selmer selling Chinese instruments without identifying them as such.

Note that the Germans making Courtois instruments are being paid a living wage; which is somewhere around what you would pay in the US.

To be fair they do identify them as such, it's right there in the brand description : built by "manufacturing partners in Eastern Asia". But I do think that is sleazy to say the least. An uninformed customer would not expect Conn Selmer to be selling them a stencil clone.

Not just a stencil clone, but one that C-S, as far as I can tell, didn't really have anything to do with the design/development of the instruments. When other Western brands have started selling imports (JPRath, Rath RX00, Eastman by Shires, Shires Q), there's been involvement from the Western company in sharing designs with the manufacturer and doing some QC. In this case it looks like C-S is simply rebadging the same JinBao Slokar clone that already existed. The only thing Conn-Selmer here is the profits.

[DougHulme]

Been selling these euphoniums for some time. I had a friend (Englishman) in Finland 4 years ago who had one of these Euphoniums with the Conn Badge on. I'm no judge of euphoniums and hold no opinion on the quality of these but my friend is a good player and he is very pleased with it even after 4 years. He may of course be more pleased with the price than the instrument but it would seem from Finetales comment and my friends that maybe for the price they are alright? I dont know... Doug

[wayne88ny]

It's a Moz alto trombone with Elkhart engraving. Michael Lake recommends it as an inexpensive alto trombone.

I don't know what you mean by the partials feeling wider. Are the partials in tune? Having the proper mouthpiece makes a big difference when it comes to playing alto trombone. (the Yamaha 48A is an excellent alto trombone mouthpiece that won't cost you and arm and a leg).
Look at Wikipedia if you're curious about the original Elkhart Band Instrument Company. Elkhart Trombones (like Olds) are now made in China and have nothing to do with Conn. There's a number of altos on ebay that are rebranded Moz altos. The Packer is probably a Moz too. Where are you measuring the bore size? It's my understanding it is measured at the inside (or possibly the outside) of the stocking (I think the King 2B is an exception). By the way, I wouldn't necessarily trust the Elkhart specs listed on the internet.

[Chronos91]

It's a Moz alto trombone with Elkhart engraving. Michael Lake recommends it as an inexpensive alto trombone.

I don't know what you mean by the partials feeling wider. Are the partials in tune? Having the proper mouthpiece makes a big difference when it comes to playing alto trombone. (the Yamaha 48A is an excellent alto trombone mouthpiece that won't cost you and arm and a leg).
Look at Wikipedia if you're curious about the original Elkhart Band Instrument Company. Elkhart Trombones (like Olds) are now made in China and have nothing to do with Conn. There's a number of altos on ebay that are rebranded Moz altos. The Packer is probably a Moz too. Where are you measuring the bore size? It's my understanding it is measured at the inside (or possibly the outside) of the stocking (I think the King 2B is an exception). By the way, I wouldn't necessarily trust the Elkhart specs listed on the internet.

I meant that the slots feel wide. I'm able to bend notes more on relative partials and that was making it harder for me to learn slide positions. If I start more regular alto practice than what I've done, I'll give the 48A a look. I play it with a Bach 6-3/4 C most of the time, but I've also used a Denis Wick 9BS, which I think is the same rim size but has a deeper cup. I think the partials are well enough in tune with either, but I can only play up to the 5th and sometimes 6th partial on it without shifting so that's a limited data set.

Oh, and I measured the bore as the ID of the slide at the stockings, but I took measurements all over after that was clearly not matching.

[imsevimse]

This looks exactly as my cheap Thomann alto SL-35. It's a horn that has many names but pretty much everything about it is the Slokar clone. It's the same horn that Michel Lake plays in the video that is called Maz. I prefer to call it the Thomann SL-35 "Slokar" model.
How does it play? It plays great it is much better intune compared to my Bach 39 and seems to can handle a large variety of tenor mouthpieces. Michel Lake used a Bach 6 1/2 C in the video and I'm not surprised. My Bach 39 sounds best with something like a Bach 12E and doesn't work very well with tenor mouthpieces. That little Chinese horn is really well worth the money if you want a cheap alto.

/Tom

[heinzgries]

This looks exactly as my cheap Thomann alto SL-35. It's a horn that has many names but pretty much everything about it is the Slokar clone. It's the same horn that Michel Lake plays in the video that is called Maz. I prefer to call it the Thomann SL-35 "Slokar" model.
How does it play? It plays great it is much better intune compared to my Bach 39 and seems to can handle a large variety of tenor mouthpieces. Michel Lake used a Bach 6 1/2 C in the video and I'm not surprised. My Bach 39 sounds best with something like a Bach 12E and doesn't work very well with tenor mouthpieces. That little Chinese horn is really well worth the money if you want a cheap alto.

/Tom

have the Thomann a solid 7th position?

[imsevimse]

This looks exactly as my cheap Thomann alto SL-35. It's a horn that has many names but pretty much everything about it is the Slokar clone. It's the same horn that Michel Lake plays in the video that is called Maz. I prefer to call it the Thomann SL-35 "Slokar" model.
How does it play? It plays great it is much better intune compared to my Bach 39 and seems to can handle a large variety of tenor mouthpieces. Michel Lake used a Bach 6 1/2 C in the video and I'm not surprised. My Bach 39 sounds best with something like a Bach 12E and doesn't work very well with tenor mouthpieces. That little Chinese horn is really well worth the money if you want a cheap alto.

/Tom

have the Thomann a solid 7th position?

Yes, my Thomann alto has seven positions, it's the same as the one Michel Larke plays in the video only with another name. It's just another stencil of the Slokar original, maybe made at the same plant in China.

/Tom

[wayne88ny]

Regarding the "Slots Wide" thing. It's not unusual (in fact it's pretty normal) for the pitch to be all over the place when you first start playing alto (even with a professional instrument). Just to be clear, I mean that if you tune an Eb in first position with a tuner, play for a while, then test the Eb with a turner, chances are the pitch will beit will be different, sometimes a lot different. If you keep checking the tuner it will drive you crazy. Things will settle in after a while. It's useful to play duets and/or orchestral excerpts with a good tenor trombone player.
Good luck with learning alto trombone.