"New" horn day

[spencercarran]

Having been seduced by the extra technical options of independent valves, I recently welcomed this Yamaha 613H into the stable and took it to its first real test at a big band rehearsal last night.

PXL_20230103_164350702.jpg

My basic reasoning behind getting this model is because I think the G attachment provides some more useful alternate positions than Gb (they're more spaced out relative to the alternate positions you already have on the F side) and the 613H is the only stock bass trombone that has F/G/Eb as an option and isn't otherwise weird in some way (ie it has normal 9.5" bell, straight 0.562 bore, looks pretty Bach 50-ish). The horn seems to have been well-kept, arrived to me in its original case along with the extra slide for Gb, no dents I could find, great slide action, and just a touch of typical lacquer wear.

First impressions:

G is indeed quite useful. Got loads of practice time ahead of me to reset my muscle memory; several of my written Dbs and Cs last night were quite sharp I'm mostly finding G in first to be a bit squirrelly, but D a little off the bumpers is good, and the option to play C and F around the middle of the slide (instead of at either far end) is super handy. The major downside of the short second valve, of course, is that low B natural is out in proper 7th. I can reach it fine, others justifiably prefer it to be closer.

Valves are noticeably more open than on my old Holton, also pictured. No surprise there.

Mouthpiece receiver is slightly wider than standard large shank, so mouthpieces go in a bit further than you would expect. My Holton's the same, so it's no big problem. Layer of tape helps anything that wants to sink too far.

Ergonomics are better than many other basses I've tried. Still not great because it is still a double-valve bass, and the slide receiver and second trigger don't leave enough clearance to get my Neotech grip installed. Will have to search out alternatives for that soon.

Response is way different than the Holton, and the sounds coming out relative to my input were often not what I'm used to. So far I don't think it's better or worse, just a different beast. I suspect it'll be a process of getting accustomed to how the Yamaha translates my air into sound. Starting to settle down on using a medium-sized piece and backing off a little; this horn will project plenty without too much force applied. Assuming I can translate my playing to the new horn and wind up fully sold on the merits of indy valves, it might be time to have the Holton cleaned up by my local tech and find it a new home.

[tbonesullivan]

Nice Find! I had a silver plated 613H for a while, and it had a great sound, though it was a bit heavy. I think the "H" in the name is for the "heavy" bell. I played with the G valve for a while but ultimately swapped to the Gb, as having a closer B natural was just that attractive. Also having played a Bb/F/D dependent horn for years, it meant I didn't have to learn a whole new set of double valve positions.

The 613H, like the current 830 and some Japan only models, uses a leadpipe that usually will take in a mouthpiece about 3-4mm more than other receivers. You can find all types of stories over why this is, whether it's a good or bad thing, etc. However Yamaha likes that pipe enough to keep using it on everything, so there must be some reason for it.

I have two Yamaha basses now, and I hold them the same way: the "Yeo grip", where I put the upper slide brace between my middle and ring fingers. With that grip I found I don't actually have to use any type of device. The paddle for the second valve does not stick out very far, so I can see why it would cause issues. I have seen people modify the paddle in various ways.

One thing I found is nice is getting the Yamaha thumb paddle, which actually fits on just about all of their 600 series horns released after 1990. You can get both the paddle and the screw at Mouthpiece Express.

[Burgerbob]

Jealous. Let me know if you want to trade for a 613!

[spencercarran]

One thing I found is nice is getting the Yamaha thumb paddle, which actually fits on just about all of their 600 series horns released after 1990. You can get both the paddle and the screw at Mouthpiece Express.

Oh, good tip, I'll check that. Having something a bit nicer there would be a plus, though the plain thumb lever isn't awful as is (more comfortable than the one on my Benge). I did make it through two hours of rehearsal last night with "Yeo grip" and no aid, still would like to have something to move more of the weight off my pinky.

The other thing to figure out is if I can somehow attach some D rings for backpack straps on the case. It's quite nice, even has a special spot for the extra second valve slide, just kinda useless to me if I can't bike with it.

[tbonesullivan]

The other thing to figure out is if I can somehow attach some D rings for backpack straps on the case. It's quite nice, even has a special spot for the extra second valve slide, just kinda useless to me if I can't bike with it.

I WISH my 613H had come with the original case. That is one of the BEST DESIGNED CASES ever made. Even the original Slide Dr. John Upchurch talked about how much he loved the case for the 613H. It keeps the slide at the TOP of the case, which means that the heavier stuff in the case won't sag down onto the slide and cause issues.

It also supports the bell section like nothing else. I have a YBL-612RII, which is from the same era as the 613H, and the case is very similar. That case protected my horn perfectly when it was shipped to me in JUST THE CASE. Parcel post. Just a bit of tape around it. Case came through with almost no damage and the horn was completely fine.

It is however a bit bulky for biking, so most likely some type of smaller profile case or gig bag would work better. I personally wouldn't risk hurting the structural integrity of a case by trying to put attachment points on it. Also for biking I'd definitely want more than just two lever latches keeping my case shut.

[Digidog]

That's a really nice horn!

Congrats to a seemingly very useful acquisition, and I hope you'll find much use and music from it when you've fully adjusted to it.

Is the bell the regular Yamaha one-piece "pressed" type?

[spencercarran]

I WISH my 613H had come with the original case. That is one of the BEST DESIGNED CASES ever made. Even the original Slide Dr. John Upchurch talked about how much he loved the case for the 613H. It keeps the slide at the TOP of the case, which means that the heavier stuff in the case won't sag down onto the slide and cause issues.

It also supports the bell section like nothing else. I have a YBL-612RII, which is from the same era as the 613H, and the case is very similar. That case protected my horn perfectly when it was shipped to me in JUST THE CASE. Parcel post. Just a bit of tape around it. Case came through with almost no damage and the horn was completely fine.

It is however a bit bulky for biking, so most likely some type of smaller profile case or gig bag would work better. I personally wouldn't risk hurting the structural integrity of a case by trying to put attachment points on it. Also for biking I'd definitely want more than just two lever latches keeping my case shut.

Yup, mine crossed an ocean in the case with one layer of thin bubblewrap and a shipping label. Seller had some serious faith in that case, and it looks like he was right to. Not only the Upchurch-approved placement of the slide compartment, but also how well molded the foam padding around that spot is really makes it feel snug and secure.

Bulky doesn't deter me; I bike with my tuba sometimes. Would have to be cautious about any solution to make sure not to damage the case itself though.

Is the bell the regular Yamaha one-piece "pressed" type?

I'm told it's a one piece bell, not sure how to tell anything beyond that

[Tbarh]

Does the «H» mean heavier bell or heavier slide/overall ?

[Tbarh]

That's a really nice horn!

Congrats to a seemingly very useful acqusition, and I hope you'll find much use and music from it when you've fully adjusted to it.

Is the bell the regular Yamaha one-piece "pressed" type?

Every Yamaha in This price bracket are hand hammered !

[tbonesullivan]

I'm told it's a one piece bell, not sure how to tell anything beyond that

The specs call it a "9-1/2" hand-hammered, one-piece, gold brass bell " I believe it has a brazing seam on the bottom. It should be easy to see as the brazing material used is usually yellow brass on gold/red brass bells.

Yamaha uses "plazuma welding" on some other bells. I believe they did for my 612RII, as I cannot find any type of seam anywhere on it. I think most of their bells were made this way up until around the 1990s when they started using traditional seams and hand hammering.

[spencercarran]

There is indeed a faintly visible seam on the back of the bell, doesn't photograph clearly enough to be worth uploading here.

Kinda wish I had more occasion for orchestral playing nowadays, it really feels like this horn would be well suited to those settings.

[tbonesullivan]

There is indeed a faintly visible seam on the back of the bell, doesn't photograph clearly enough to be worth uploading here.

Kinda wish I had more occasion for orchestral playing nowadays, it really feels like this horn would be well suited to those settings.

Brazing seams are really hard to photograph. Kanstul uses yellow brass to braze on ALL bells, so their seams are impossible to see.

It definitely is a great horn for orchestral work, but it is definitely versatile. With a more commercially oriented mouthpiece it'll bark just fine.

[aaronfsmall]

If you find a hand support that works, please let me know! I also own a 613H, and the main frustration that I have with it is the lack of compatible hand supports. I have tried Neotech, the bullet brace (both kinds), the ax handle (several configurations) and the Sheridan Get-a-grip, and nothing quite works yet.

[Burgerbob]

Use a strap. I use one on all yamahas since they don't really work with anything else.

[spencercarran]

I'm too clumsy to use the straps effectively, especially when there are mute changes happening.

If you find a hand support that works, please let me know! I also own a 613H, and the main frustration that I have with it is the lack of compatible hand supports. I have tried Neotech, the bullet brace (both kinds), the ax handle (several configurations) and the Sheridan Get-a-grip, and nothing quite works yet.

If you message CalderPips (on here in the thread viewtopic.php?f=25&t=26429 or on their Facebook page) and ask for the thinner version of their grip, they can make you one that does indeed fit within the tight second trigger clearance. I'm still fidgeting with it to get the exact right fit to my particular hand and will update with a more thorough review once I get it dialed in.

PXL_20230207_161506915.MP.jpg

[spencercarran]

I'm overdue on updating my experience with the CalderPips grips; I wanted to give it enough of a chance to see if I'd be able to make it work. No dice. First of all, the leather started to fail almost immediately; within a couple days of relatively light use, there was visible steel poking through. It's much less comfortable and much less secure than the Neotech. It appears to be incompatible with the Yeo grip no matter how you adjust it, and anything other than the Yeo grip really is just incompatible with my size hands. Those with smaller hands may have better luck. I might attempt to adjust the CalderPips grip once more and see if I can get it to function, but it's already not taken well to attempts to reset it - the maker seems in a bit of denial about how adjustable it is. Probably bound for the trash at this point.

But back to the horn! I had the opportunity to use it for a local orchestra over the weekend, and it does shine in that application. Rock solid stable sound that responds consistently and projects cleanly. Super efficient to play. I'll definitely be looking forward to finding more occasions to play it in classical settings.

[musicofnote]

Use a strap. I use one on all yamahas since they don't really work with anything else.

Ooohhh ... then please don't tell my neotech that resides since 2017 on my Yamaha Xeno 822g. It's doing so well there and being such a great help, I'd be disappointed if my neotech ever heard, it doesn't actually work on my 822g.

[Burgerbob]

Neotech works, I just don't like them on bass at all.

[spencercarran]

Use a strap. I use one on all yamahas since they don't really work with anything else.

Ooohhh ... then please don't tell my neotech that resides since 2017 on my Yamaha Xeno 822g. It's doing so well there and being such a great help, I'd be disappointed if my neotech ever heard, it doesn't actually work on my 822g.

Second trigger placement must be different? There's definitely not enough clearance on the 613H to fit the Neotech. Otherwise that'd be far and away my first choice.

[Digidog]

That's a really nice horn!

Congrats to a seemingly very useful acqusition, and I hope you'll find much use and music from it when you've fully adjusted to it.

Is the bell the regular Yamaha one-piece "pressed" type?

Every Yamaha in This price bracket are hand hammered !

Yeah, I know that Yamaha hand hammers bells on horns from a certain level and up, what I asked, in a not too clear way, was if the bell had been treated with whatever it is they do to hide the bell seam. When I spoke to a Yam rep in Tokyo many years ago, he said they somehow "roll-pressed" the bell when warm to "hide" the seam (on two piece bells), supposedly giving it more of a one-piece-bell characteristics. I have no idea if this was/is true, but the rep was from Australia and I'm sure I didn't misunderstand what he said, so that's why I'm curious to know how other Yam bells are made - other than those on my own 697 and 421.