Another request for instrument recommendations

[knirirr]

With luck no-one will mind me posting a request here after a while lurking - it looks like the right place...
Anyway, I am a jazz double bass player who for some time has fancied also being able to also play a horn on occasion, so about 18 months ago I bought myself a 70s Besson student trombone (not bad for $60) and have been taking a few lessons. Having lasted this long and recently sold some old guitars I no longer play I fancy treating myself to something a bit nicer; some sort of small bore tenor, no F-attachment, vintage and/or nice colours/bell engraving preferred. I might not merit it, but a nice instrument encourages practice.

I have seen a few instruments that are of interest and wondered if anyone had any advice. Unfortunately, I'm in the UK and there's not much available compared with what's on sale in the US, it seems. I suspect prices are higher also. There's not any opportunity to try any as there are none for sale in a location I could easily visit. So far I have spotted:

Conn 6H 1965-66?, $735, including various mutes. Looks good in photos but there's not any opportunity to try before buying and the seller has hinted that he's not keen on returns as it's a commission sale with not much profit in it.

Holton Collegiate, 1961?, $395. Looks very cool, as far as I can tell it resembles photos I've seen of a Super Collegiate, though it only says collegiate on the bell.

Yamaha YSL354, second hand, $605. Or, new for $900. New is probably a bit more than I would want to spend, but is not impossible. These look the least attractive but I'd guess the quality is likely to be reliably good.

If any of this seems worth a look I'd be interested to know your thoughts - thanks in advance.

[BGuttman]

Hi and welcome!

I moved your post since Comments and Suggestions is intended for things related to running Trombone Chat. Queries about instruments go in the Hardware section.

With respect to your post, I'd avoid the Holton Collegiate. They were not terribly good instruments in their day and have not aged well.

The Yamaha 354 can work, although I think $605 is a tad high for a used one. The Yamaha student trombone is good enough to play in ensembles. Doug Elliott won his audition to the Airmen of Note on the earlier version (352).

The 6H is a nice instrument, and the period is good (pre-Abilene, also referred to as Elkhart).

The key to buying any used instrument is condition. See if there is any wear on the inner slide and how many dents and bangs are on the crooks and the bell.

You might want to investigate some better Chinese made instruments, particularly from JP-Rath (JP is John Packer) or Wessex Tubas. Packer and Wessex do QC on the horns made in China and weed out the real duds (the big issue with Chinese made instruments).

[ithinknot]

Just buy one of these
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374381150237
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325444042600

Conn might be good but not unseen, Holton Collegiate possibly not a great instrument and that price is WAY too high. Can't go wrong with a 354, but buying new is ridiculous and whatever you converted into $605 is still much too high for a used one.

[knirirr]

Thanks for the comments, and for moving the post to the correct place.
I'd not thought of Wessex - they do appear to do a copy of the Martin TR-4501, which is something I covet but can't find. Still quite expensive, though, and I don't fancy buying new.
I'd not seen the Yamahas on Ebay - thanks!

[blap73]

A slight change of topic direction ... since best prices will be in your local swap ads (in US that would be OfferUp, Craiglist, Facebook Marketplace) you need to be able to recognize a good horn vs. one that's going to take $$$ to make right when you go look. Search for 'slide diagnosis' by the Brass and Woodwind Shop on YouTube. Great video on diagnosis of slide issues. A slide with issues is not going to get better with lube. Then if you find (as I did) a Conn 4H, 1950 on OfferUp (for example) - when you go look at it you'll be able to judge it. You'll recognize skewed slides, bent slides, and more. A music shop selling a used instrument should have it all tuned up, but then you pay retail prices. I paid $120 for my Conn. A handful of dents, some lacquer loss, but a really good slide. It was stiff when I tried it but I strongly suspected cleaning was going to make it better, and it did.

[knirirr]

Search for 'slide diagnosis' by the Brass and Woodwind Shop on YouTube. Great video on diagnosis of slide issues.

Found it, thanks. I'll take a look shortly.
I've looked on the ads (not Facebook, though - no account) and there's nothing locally at present, but I'm keeping an eye out.

[StephenK]

'Buy and Sell Brass UK' on Facebook may be worth watching. I found a King 3b-f there last year. Actual stores in UK tend to be expensive for used instruments. I would advise against buying without trying also. (Wessex was mentioned earlier, they are in Andover, though I'm not suggesting you buy from there in particular). Rath are popular in UK, based near Huddersfield. Good luck.

[MaevenDeadcloud]

I imagine you probably want a secondhand horn, since you can get much nicer horns for much cheaper, but if you do decide to get a new horn, I would recommend using Thomann.de, since they ship all over Europe, including the UK, if I recall correctly. Again, you probably want a secondhand horn, and other people can help you a lot more with that than I can, but I thought I'd mention it.

[knirirr]

Thanks, everyone, for the further suggestions.
Thomann have indeed been reliable in the past, though I've never bought anything brass-related from them.
When it comes to ordering without seeing I may well have no option, given that there's nothing close to me that suits what I'm looking for. I don't expect to find a problem with not finding the instrument to my tastes but I am concerned about potential defects and the ability to do a return/refund if it is actually faulty. Ebay should, in theory offer that; I don't know about Facebook marketplace but I don't have access to that anyway.
I did try a Wessex soprano trombone which I got barely-used from Ebay. The quality of this was excellent for the price, I thought, but the small mouthpiece made it far too difficult to play so I'll list that for sale again.

[MrHCinDE]

I understand your concerns about buying unseen, especially from private sellers.

Buying new can be a good option but don’t discard buying used from a reputable commercial seller. Returns should be available (best to check before buying) and straightforward within the UK. It can get more complex once import/export is involved with handling tax refunds etc.

Shops that regularly have second hand instruments you might look at in the UK include:

Prozone
Phil Parker
Duchy Brass
Mick Rath (usually trade-ins from Rath customers I expect)
Trevor Jones
Band Supplies
Dawkes

(There may be other too)

I’ve bought or sold with all but two of them and had only good experiences. It’s pretty low risk if there is a returns policy. You can even get a knowledgable player or tech to give it a once over before deciding to keep or not.

[Trav1s]

Back to the original post...

I think the Conn 24H is an under appreciated horn .485" bore pro horn. Horns from the 30 don't command a lot of money but play well and show up pretty frequently. The 77H (step up horn) is almost a 6H without the cost. I have one that I hoped would like but it's not my thing.



I'm wondering if sourcing a known good horn from the states would be an option. This comes to mind: https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28959

[knirirr]

@Trav1s - thanks for the link here. I might start looking at the US if I fail locally.
I am now in pursuit of a UK-located 77H which I think will suit, assuming there are no surprise faults etc.

[knirirr]

I managed to get the 77H previously mentioned. As far as I can tell it is all working nicely, and it is lighter and more comfortable to hold than the Besson Westminster I was using. It will accept a Wise grip which helps as well. With luck this will keep me going for a while.