Yamaha Xeno dull feedback

JCBone · Post by **JCBone** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:19 am

Hi all. I am currently using a Xeno 830 bass trombone and have been very frusturated with very dull sounding feedback. My teacher, who is testing horns for yamaha has a similar sentiment. My teacher is also good friends with Tomer Maschkowski who is one of the famous yamaha artists. I also have taken some lessons with him and he says that he feels the yammy has a less interesting sound then the Bach he used to have but it responds more consistently. Anybody have thoughts on this?

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:04 am

It could be a problem with your individual instrument - a leak, bad solder joint. an unsoldered joint, or stress in assembly. There are some repair techs who could diagnose it but I wouldn't expect most to.

MTbassbone · Post by **MTbassbone** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:22 pm

I have an 830G and the assembly at the factory was terrible. It took a lot of TLC by Brian Hinkley (Crazy4Tbone86) to get things sorted out. For those near New Market, MD he is an excellent repair tech. I'll let him comment on it if he wishes, but in the end I am happy with the horn. I agree with what Mr. Maschkowski said concerning the characteristics of the horn, and it is one of the reasons I bought it. I think the part about less interesting sound can be mitigated by the player to a certain extent, but for the type of playing I do consistency is more important.

Also remember what you are hearing is not necessarily what the audience is hearing. Make sure to get someone on the other end to listen carefully at a distance.

2bobone · Post by **2bobone** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:34 pm

Somewhere back in the 80's, Yamaha came to the Kennedy Center and invited the trombone sections of the NSO and the Opera House Orchestra to audition their new line of trombones. It took place in one of the rehearsal rooms at the KC so it was a spacious venue. I spent my time only on bass trombone but unfortunately don't recall the model number. I was definitely "into" my King horns [DG & 8B] and thought that the Yamaha only had one color so far as flexibility of sound was concerned. I wouldn't have called it dull, but the term "pedestrian" comes to mind. What really stuck in my mind about the experience was the terrific trigger mechanism that they'd developed ---- sort of a Mini-Ball sort of thing. The instruments themselves did not interest me. An interesting situation presented itself when the NSO was on tour in Japan and Yamaha had loaned a set of tenors to our section probably hoping that they would use them in that evening's performance. They ran through a few excerpts and sounded absolutely fabulous but in final analysis decided NOT to use them fearing that the conductor might be upset at so sudden a change in the accustomed timbre of the section. It was probably a wise choice. A curious comparison between Japanese musical instruments and Japanese audio equipment soon became obvious as I prowled around the incredible number of audio shops in the Akihabara section of Tokyo. It seemed that most equipment was built using formulas and data but eliminated any sort of listening test ! Although I became an instant fan of STAX electrostatic headphones, nothing else was appealing to my ears. Having been an "Audiophile" since the term was coined, I reasoned that Japanese audio choices were based on cultural differences and preferences. Perhaps their instruments are designed in a similar fashion ?

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:40 pm

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:22 pm I have an 830G and the assembly at the factory was terrible. It took a lot of TLC by Brian Hinkley (Crazy4Tbone86) to get things sorted out. For those near New Market, MD he is an excellent repair tech. I'll let him comment on it if he wishes, but in the end I am happy with the horn. I agree with what Mr. Maschkowski said concerning the characteristics of the horn, and it is one of the reasons I bought it. I think the part about less interesting sound can be mitigated by the player to a certain extent, but for the type of playing I do consistency is more important.

Dull feedback could be one or a combination of many possible problems. MTbassbones’s 830G had problems with all three sets of tuning slide legs not being parallel. He had already diagnosed the problem before he brought it to me by stating “even when well-lubricated, the tuning slides are very difficult to move.” The 830G is designed so that many of the components that determine the width of the tuning slides are precut to a specific lengths or widths. Thus, there was a very low probability that things would be absolutely parallel. One of MTbassbone’s tuning slides was non-parallel by more than .050 inch. I had to cut the S-shaped tubing in the F-section and place a ferrule in the middle of it to make it adjustable and eventually parallel.

Other things that can cause dull feedback are: bad rotor alignment (don’t trust the witness marks!) and the possibility of a solder joint that has a leak. Solder joint leaks do not always hiss or buzz, sometimes they make the horn sound dull. About 15 years ago, a guy brought me a Bach 42G…..he wanted to sell it to me because he thought it was lifeless. I took off the main tuning slide to look at the state of things inside (checking for calcium buildup). I noticed a spec of light coming through one side at a ferrule. Instead of buying it from him, I resoldered the joint to make it air tight. The horn played magnificently! He still plays that horn today.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:34 pm

I literally am playing a $100 Chinese 7B copy at work instead of the supplied Yamaha 830 because it is so, so soul crushing to play the Yamaha.

I think there are good ones out there, but there's something about that horn that can go very wrong and result in the most boring, bland, colorless, sound and feedback imaginable.

I played the one at work for a LONG time, every time thinking I was making progress in understanding the instrument, and then I would play literally anything else in the same setting and realize how much I was missing.

Yes, the Chinese horn really does do it better than that particular 5k Yamaha.

Honestly.... I would consider a different bass.

MTbassbone · Post by **MTbassbone** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:12 pm

2bobone wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:34 pm What really stuck in my mind about the experience was the terrific trigger mechanism that they'd developed ---- sort of a Mini-Ball sort of thing.

IMHO its hard to argue with Yamaha valves and slides. I have owned Kings, Conns, Bachs, Edwards, and Shires trombones. Yamaha's slides and valves seem to be smoother and quieter than all of them even after they are tuned up.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:28 pm

I have posted many times about the terrible Yamaha Xeno 830 basses and to a lesser extent the xeno tenors. It's not the build quality -- they just made bizarre design choices. The bells are heavy, and have a heavy bead solder. They probably shouldn't have soldered the bead at all. The leadpipe also eats up the entire shank of your mouthpiece, which also seems to negatively affect how the thing plays. I got mine to play slightly better by building up the shank of my mouthpiece with Teflon tape until it only went in an inch, and damping the bell tightly in two spots, 4" of the throat just beneath the bell brace, and another 2" where the flare was attached. Doing this made it seem like I was actually getting something out of the instrument for the effort. It's still terrible.

How could they have gone from one of their best basses, the Yeo model, to the awful 830 is beyond me. Likewise, they had the beautiful Bousfield tenor, which was massively ahead of its time, and now it's replaced with the xeno tenors, which are for the most part dull and unresponsive.

MTbassbone · Post by **MTbassbone** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:24 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:28 pm The bells are heavy, and have a heavy bead solder. They probably shouldn't have soldered the bead at all.

I agree the soldered bead is pretty heavy. It would be interesting to try without the soldered bead but Yamaha does not offer that option. To have the solder removed from the bead seems unlikely without messing something up. I played the 620G and felt it had less of soldered bead than the 830.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:34 pm

Recently I've had the chance to play a few Yamaha small/medium bores. I wouldn't call them dull, but - especially in comparison to Conns or Bachs - they have been a little uninteresting. I doubt this is something you can hear from in front of the bell, but behind it, and in comparison to other instruments, it's definitely noticeable. People who normally play Yamaha might think Conns are bright or squirrelly or hard to control, I don't know, but this impression of mine has been there for most but not all the Yammies I've played .

I'm never surprised to hear others say the same sort of thing about other models. Yamahas are great instruments, but they aren't for everyone. My latest discovery has been a Conn 32h bell (buffed to within an inch of its life) and a heavy Yamaha Med bore slide coming together to make a great mixed make horn. Strengths combined, weaknesses offset one another.

soseggnchips · Post by **soseggnchips** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:35 am

Does anyone have an opinion on the 891 vs. the old 691?

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:38 am

soseggnchips wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:35 am Does anyone have an opinion on the 891 vs. the old 691?

The 891z to me was the best Yamaha I have ever owned. Almost as nice to play as the Shires Michael Davis +. I think it was different from other Yamahas. My memory of the 691 was that it was nice enough, maybe adequate would be the best way to describe it. The 891z with the long lead pipe was a really nice horn, though.

PhilE · Post by **PhilE** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:42 am

A few years back I tried out a Xeno large bore tenor.
It felt and sounded dull to me.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:59 am

soseggnchips wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:35 am Does anyone have an opinion on the 891 vs. the old 691?

I hate to be the yamaha basher here, but a guy at work bought an 891 a couple years ago for his main axe. He just gave up on it after tons of chop problems back to his king 3BSS.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:00 am

Never really had any problems with feed back from my Yamaha trombones. Maybe it's something you just get used to? I will say that the 10" bell with an unsoldered bead on my YBL-612 does get a bit more "feedback than my YBL-830, but not really that much. Yamaha trombones are however more "engineered" than "designed" in some ways. The design concepts and goals they are build using are slightly different than what Conn-Selmer uses now. I am however surprised that a bell section was assembled improperly to that degree. The assembly and fit and finish on my Yamaha trombones is all top notch, especially compared to my Trusty Bach 42, which has had to have both tuning slide legs expanded because once they were parallel even the thickest tuning slide grease couldn't keep them from falling in.

Regarding bells anyone really done any comparison regarding rim wire size and amount of solder used between different makers? I do recall that most of the Rath trombone bells I have seen have quite a bit of solder on the rim. Never noticed that any of those had any lack of feedback.

tombone21 · Post by **tombone21** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:34 am

JCBone wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:19 am Hi all. I am currently using a Xeno 830 bass trombone and have been very frusturated with very dull sounding feedback. My teacher, who is testing horns for yamaha has a similar sentiment. My teacher is also good friends with Tomer Maschkowski who is one of the famous yamaha artists. I also have taken some lessons with him and he says that he feels the yammy has a less interesting sound then the Bach he used to have but it responds more consistently. Anybody have thoughts on this?

You're right! Those Xeno's are are very well made and consistent as hell, but there's always gonna be a trade off.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:42 am

tombone21 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:34 am
You're right! Those Xeno's are are very well made and consistent as hell,

I think this is a misconception. I have played over a dozen 830s and they have all been different, some to wild degrees. The original Murray Crewe prototype is amazing by all accounts, as is Steve Fissel's randomly bought one. But there are plenty of dogs, bright snappy horns, dull horns, the whole gamut. The more handmade components in an instrument, the less consistent it will be.

tombone21 · Post by **tombone21** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:57 am

Fair point. To be fair, I'm never really itching to try another buddy's 8820 if when see one in the wild lol

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:57 am

I have also not enjoyed my time with the few 830s I've played, including testing 2 brand new ones direct from the factory and borrowing one for a few months while I was between basses. Dull and lifeless is exactly how I would describe them. But hey, the valves and linkages are great!

The Xeno tenors aren't so tepid to me, just a little uninteresting. They're just...fine.

EXCEPT the YSL-882 (no suffix) closed wrap. That thing is magic and I've been smitten by every example I've played. I'm curious if the big 600-series tenors have more of that feel.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:43 am

I wasn’t knocked out by the Xeno 822 and 830 compared to the 620G that I eventually bought.

bassclef · Post by **bassclef** » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:10 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:59 am I hate to be the yamaha basher here...

Since when?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:59 am ...but a guy at work bought an 891 a couple years ago for his main axe. He just gave up on it after tons of chop problems back to his king 3BSS.

Having owned a couple 3B's, one was SS, and and 891 at the same time, I'm really curious to know what about the 891 he thought was causing his chop problems. I have a couple guesses, but really am interested.

WilliamLang · Post by **WilliamLang** » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:27 pm

The Yamaha 882V that I was playing was super interesting - but the feedback behind the bell did indeed feel dull at first. The issue was, everyone in front of the bell thought the sound was great, and clearer than the thayer valve Shires I had been playing on. I've been wondering, having had the same experience with other Yamahas, if a lot of the rep of them has to do with the player's experience vs. the listeners.

fsgazda · Post by **fsgazda** » Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:44 pm

I am a huge fan of the 613H that came out in the 90's, and I like the 882OR tenor a lot. The 622 and 822 are both also OK for me. I have never liked the 830 however.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:11 am

bassclef wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:10 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:59 am I hate to be the yamaha basher here...
Since when?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:59 am ...but a guy at work bought an 891 a couple years ago for his main axe. He just gave up on it after tons of chop problems back to his king 3BSS.
Having owned a couple 3B's, one was SS, and and 891 at the same time, I'm really curious to know what about the 891 he thought was causing his chop problems. I have a couple guesses, but really am interested.

Not sure what he thought exactly was the problem, but he sounds great on the 3BSS. He sounded fine on the yamaha too but not nearly the same quality.

sirisobhakya · Post by **sirisobhakya** » Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:19 am

I have tried 2 830s, and around 10-20 other basses. Maybe I am a bit biased, but nothing beats my own 830 in tone, response, and ergonomics, even Shires Q, Bachs, and even Edwards (Shires Q came quite close). The other 830 that I tried, though, was not that good. The response was quite dull and the tone not as clear. The owner of that 830 tried mine and he was impressed. Maybe I am lucky? (I bought the horn in Japan, Yamaha Music Hiroshima.)

However, both the 830s are not stock: mine has counterweight added and lightweight valve caps of 822, the other has shortened second valve slide to G.

882s tenors I have tried were less "interesting". In my opinion they seem too heavy. The 820GII (Custom series JDM) though is markedly more responsive and lively.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:55 am

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:19 amHowever, both the 830s are not stock: mine has counterweight added and lightweight valve caps of 822, the other has shortened second valve slide to G.

I have seen several with counterweights for sale over the years. Was there a time that they had the counterweight on them?

Also, I got my 830 very recently, and the valve caps seem to be aluminum, as is the thumb paddle on the F-trigger. I came from a Siver Plated 613H that was somewhat beat up, and I definitely found the 830 to be an improvement. Easier to color and can get some nice edge without pushing as hard. I think the "H" in the 613 name is for "Heavy", regarding the bell.

brtnats · Post by **brtnats** » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:08 am

I play Yamaha and I really enjoy them. I’ve got an 891Z, 882V, and a 822G. I wouldn’t characterize any of them as “dull,” but I will say that the sound on my end is different than the sound out front. Not bad, just different. I like them because they project well, so I don’t have to work as hard. I liked them a lot *more* when I took the time to get mouthpieces fitted to them.

sirisobhakya · Post by **sirisobhakya** » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:57 am

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:55 am
sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:19 amHowever, both the 830s are not stock: mine has counterweight added and lightweight valve caps of 822, the other has shortened second valve slide to G.
I have seen several with counterweights for sale over the years. Was there a time that they had the counterweight on them?

Also, I got my 830 very recently, and the valve caps seem to be aluminum, as is the thumb paddle on the F-trigger. I came from a Siver Plated 613H that was somewhat beat up, and I definitely found the 830 to be an improvement. Easier to color and can get some nice edge without pushing as hard. I think the "H" in the 613 name is for "Heavy", regarding the bell.

The 830 never has counterweight attached. I ordered a counterweight of 882 tenor as part from Yamaha. The horn balances better with it attached.

On the website, Yamaha indeed states that the bell of the 830 has thinner wall than the outgoing model, which is 613H.

JoeStanko · Post by **JoeStanko** » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:10 am

fsgazda wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:44 pm I am a huge fan of the 613H that came out in the 90's, and I like the 882OR tenor a lot. The 622 and 822 are both also OK for me. I have never liked the 830 however.

The 613H was designed with a lot of input from Steve Norrell - it's the best Bach 50B3O that Bach never built....

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:40 pm

JoeStanko wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:10 am
fsgazda wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:44 pm I am a huge fan of the 613H that came out in the 90's, and I like the 882OR tenor a lot. The 622 and 822 are both also OK for me. I have never liked the 830 however.
The 613H was designed with a lot of input from Steve Norrell - it's the best Bach 50B3O that Bach never built....

Joe, I think it was you who once told me about the glories of the 613H. I had one come through the shop for some slide work back in June. It was a VERY fine instrument. Although, it did look like someone had rebuilt some parts of the bell section.

The best way I could describe this particular instrument is that it played like a very good Bach 50, but more efficient. I found tonguing and playing fast passages on it intoxicatingly fun……very nimble.

imsevimse · Post by **imsevimse** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:51 pm

I want to balance the bashing of Yamaha trombones.
I have several Yamaha trombones. (891Z, 892XZ, 612R, 321, 322) All these are good. The only one I remember I had some problems to play is the 612R, but it was more than 20 years from now that bass was my main bass. The high register on that horn was difficult. I remember if I had to blend in unison with small bore tenors in a big band that was hard, but otherwise it is a great bass, it has a huge sound in the valve- and pedal register. From all my trombones - and my collection is large - the 891Z is my main horn for jazz. I choose that horn before my great King 2b, Silversonic 3b or Conn 6h or any of the other sonourous horns I own. The 891Z has not a dull sound at all, but none of my horns has that, not after I've learned and adjusted my playing to fit their character.

/Tom

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:56 pm

I have heard nothing but good about the 891Z. My friend loves his.

musicofnote · Post by **musicofnote** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:08 pm

My $.02, especially since I don't have, nor have I played an 830. But I do have an 822g that I love. On another thread I related my mouthpiece experiment, where I selected a few examples and recorded them on different mouthpieces. I felt a LOT of difference on the various mouthpieces and after an acclimatisation period will do the same same recording on the Symington 1.5 brass I'm getting in a coupleof days.

Long story short, each of the mouthpieces I played -felt- very specific and different to each other. But listening to the recordings, I did not hear a difference between the mouthpieces. I then copied the files and then removed the file names to get any "expectation bias" out of the way and I could not identify these files aurally - they all sounded the same, even perceived feelings of thinness of sound or breadth of sound did not make themselves apparent to the ear, even if the feeling was very specific.

At least for me, I feel that I have a specific sound in my mind and "adjust" whatever I need to do to obtain that sound without being aware of it, although I do -feel- that one mouthpiece or another "does it better". But the sounding result is still the same. So I'd say, that at least the 822g has a LOT of feedback, so much so that it allows me to compensate for attirbutes of a mouthpiece in order to get the sound I want.

BTW - I got this 822g in 2014 after having played a Bach 50OG since 1995 and hating every minute because I -felt- that I had to play every single note differently in order to get any uniformity of sound. And the paddle-registers were stuffy and slotted terribly, no matter what mouthpiece I used. And I felt my 42OG was worse. BUT, the prof at the local conservatory bought both Bachs from me and LOVED them - Edgar Manyak, who's solo trombonist in Berlin and plays bass with Slokar. So it's not like he's some ignorant rube. Bachs were just not for me, but Yamaha was, as is, for what little tenor I play, my Rath R400.

lmalewic · Post by **lmalewic** » Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:37 am

The full feedback could be due to the 830 receiver making the mouthpiece go in further. I use a schilke 58 with a long stem (the older version) and it works perfectly with the horn. Prior to this I was using Teflon tape on the shank of a standard 58 but the results were not as good. Getting an older 58 or 59 or 60 (depending on what size you play) is going to be the best option. You can also get the leadpipe pulled and try out different ones. With that said once I got the long stem 58 it made the horn play much better for me. Snappier articulation, great feedback and great core of sound. It’s super easy to switch between that and all my other horns (which are also Yamahas lol).

lmalewic · Post by **lmalewic** » Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:45 am

soseggnchips wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:35 am Does anyone have an opinion on the 891 vs. the old 691?

I’ve owned both of these horns starting with the 891 and then the 691. They are very similar in a lot of ways. The 891 seems to have a slightly lighter bell which makes it more responsive but the 691 bell seems to have more core. The 891 has a standard yellow brass slide with a nickel crook while the 691 has a nickel slide with a yellow brass crook. With that said the 691 slide is lighter with quicker articulations while the 891 has broader articulations and a thicker core in the slide. The other big difference is the leadpipes. 691 has 3 (labeled 1,2,3) which I actually prefer and you can use them in the 891 if you find a set. The 891 has a NY and a LA leadpipe. I preferred the LA when I had the horn.

torobone · Post by **torobone** » Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:35 pm

lmalewic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:45 am
soseggnchips wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:35 am Does anyone have an opinion on the 891 vs. the old 691?
I’ve owned both of these horns starting with the 891 and then the 691. They are very similar in a lot of ways. The 891 seems to have a slightly lighter bell which makes it more responsive but the 691 bell seems to have more core. The 891 has a standard yellow brass slide with a nickel crook while the 691 has a nickel slide with a yellow brass crook. With that said the 691 slide is lighter with quicker articulations while the 891 has broader articulations and a thicker core in the slide. The other big difference is the leadpipes. 691 has 3 (labeled 1,2,3) which I actually prefer and you can use them in the 891 if you find a set. The 891 has a NY and a LA leadpipe. I preferred the LA when I had the horn.

It has been while since I posted. Bear with me please.

I bought the 1st or 2nd 891Z sold in Toronto back in 2009. I had the choice of 2 in the store, and the one I chose was 0.5% better. I still play this horn daily, and all the good or bad notes are solely attributed to me. It still brings me joy.

At the time, I tried a bunch of other horns, and then a few more when I was looking for a mouthpiece for my 891Z. Notably, a poorly set up Shires (noone was available to guide the test), a Yamaha 895EN, a Rath R10 and a Lawlor. On that day, the store's 891Z placed third. I no longer assume that all Yamahas are consistent.

A side note: the NY on the lead pipe is for Wycliffe Gordon, and the LA is the selected by Andy Martin. Personally, I play the NY, because it seems better & more even in live settings. I met Wycliffe in Toronto in 2014, and he was still playing his 891Z as he chose it. (Wycliffe was really nice to meet.) Apparently, the LA pipe seems to have some dull spots in the range, as tried by me and Al Kay, so it stays in my case.

Go forward 2 years to my search for a shiny, new bass trombone to replace my ugly, old Duo Gravis. I had played a decent Yamaha 830 that belonged to a local brass band, and I was pretty happy with it. Knowing that this was likely my last bass trombone purchase, I tried everything I could lay my hands on, which was about 15 horns.

I would start my store visits with the 830 to warm up, and then I would try other horns. I tried Bach, Shires, Rath, Conn, Courtois and Jupiter. One day, I warmed up on the 830, and then tried a bunch of horns that did not impress me. A week later, I realized that last 830 was the best I had tried. I found it was still available, so I went quickly back and bought it! It turned out to be more affordable than most other instruments.

Again, I have played other 830s since, and none of them play like mine. At a Yamaha demonstration suite, my friend tried an 830 that he described as really dull (and other adjectives, none of them good). Maybe a school board bought it.

My suggestion is to never buy any instrument unless you have a chance to try it first. Some people have had success buying from a reputable shop where the horn is accurately described. But I live in a big city, so I want to try it.

soseggnchips · Post by **soseggnchips** » Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:28 am

lmalewic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:45 am
soseggnchips wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:35 am Does anyone have an opinion on the 891 vs. the old 691?
I’ve owned both of these horns starting with the 891 and then the 691. They are very similar in a lot of ways. The 891 seems to have a slightly lighter bell which makes it more responsive but the 691 bell seems to have more core. The 891 has a standard yellow brass slide with a nickel crook while the 691 has a nickel slide with a yellow brass crook. With that said the 691 slide is lighter with quicker articulations while the 891 has broader articulations and a thicker core in the slide. The other big difference is the leadpipes. 691 has 3 (labeled 1,2,3) which I actually prefer and you can use them in the 891 if you find a set. The 891 has a NY and a LA leadpipe. I preferred the LA when I had the horn.

Interesting, thanks for that.

musicofnote · Post by **musicofnote** » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:03 am

lmalewic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:37 am The full feedback could be due to the 830 receiver making the mouthpiece go in further. I use a schilke 58 with a long stem (the older version) and it works perfectly with the horn.

I know it's another model, but just saying: I have a Xeno 822g. I've recorded myself with different mouthpieces and my sound is the same on the other sideof the bell, no matter what piece I'm playing - to the point I can't identify which mouthpiece I was using at the time.

BUT ...

The FEEL of the mouthpiece on the chops as perceived by my ears behind the mouthpiece is something completely different (from "dullest" to "most lively"):
1) Wedge s59 - patterned on a Schilke 59, I always found this piece to be a tad too large, so upper register suffered, such that my top was a vey strained high b-flat. But not really usable. The impression I had in direct comparisons was, that this mouthpiece -feels- the dullest or, using another set of adjectives, "round, mellow, but large".
2) Wedge 110 Gen 2 (loosely a slightly bigger Bach 1.25). Feels like more edge to the sound, but still more on the "round, mellow" side, just more pzazz than the s59.
3) Wedge 108 Gen 2 (fairly close to a Bach 1.25, but slightly smaller than the 110). More flexibility as to getting uniform colors. I -feel- I can say "keep it mellow" and it does through all registers. Top range up to c is usable. And I can get aggressive with it also if need be. Nice edge to the sound. I have the choice, so to speak of boring a small hole in a concrete wall or blasting a huge hole in it.
4) Greg Black 1 7/16 - very clear, open feel and I would have stuck with it, but ... it seems the slots in the single/double paddle registers are rather wide and too permissive. I found I was constantly over shooting (towards the bottom) an coming up flat down there. High register was great, singing. But my weakness is the single/double paddle register after having playing a lot up top, so getting them flat isn't a great option, neither musically nor in terms of not falling into bad techincal habits.
5) Symingotn 1.5. I only had this for 3 days before going on vacation, so am interested in see how it and my chops get along during the next few weeks. But initial impressions: Core, core, core. If I thought the 108 had flexibility, and the Greg Black was open, they REALLY pales in a direct comparison. I usually WANT a tad of resistence in a piece, but this either doesn't seem to have it OR it's there, but feels like it's not, but doesn't up until now, bother me. Slots are quite nice, defined and there to help in good ways. Response seems immediate and clean in all registers, even that blasted single/double paddel register - I had nice results at the end of the 2nd phrase of the Sachse (my test piece). Going to keep at this until the warts in my playing show up again.

Others I considered but didn't really test:
Bach 1.25 GM megatone - for some reason this felt huge, so had a bad feeling on the chops, but it's acutally smaller than even the 110 above. 10 minutes trying and it landed in my "for sale" drawer".
Hammond 21BL - one I really wanted to like, but it's just way too huge. No upper register, But after having taken a break for about 10 months, I played 2 days on this exclusively on the middle and low register, and that helped set me up for smaller pieces in my come-back. Now also resides in my "for sale" drawer.
Wedge 1.5 - although it's measurements are the same as the 108, it's just a stuffy little ol piece for me, that doesn't do it. Also in the "for sale" drawer.
Yamaha 59 - first impression was ok, but nothing brlliant. But the more I played it, the less I found it worked "great" for most stuff. But I'm keeping this, mostly because there's really no market and it's a good, cheap reference piece.
Yamaha 58 - when I've warmed up on a slightly bigger piece, like the Symington or the 108, this 58 is genius for lighter stuff like Creation. Very compact feeling, slots great, but no real usable pedal range - just too small. But if I needed to play some really light chamber stuff, I'd use this in a second IF Symington doesn't develop enough in this direction. So it's still a keeper.

These are subjective description, so you mileage WILL vary, but many of the characteristics are not really hearable on the bell side of the horn when I play them, but very -feelable- on my side.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:17 am

Couple observations:

622 and 822 are a totally different ballgame than 830. The 822 is a xeno but I wouldn't really include in this conversation. They are quite good horns, and I would honestly use one if they weren't dependent. I do think they tend to work better with larger equipment (like the, you guessed it, Yeo piece) but otherwise are very solid orchestral bass trombones.

I just picked up an '80s Yamaha YBL-613 (no letter- yellow 10" bell, closed wrap independent). It has great feedback and a pretty gosh darn good sound as well. It's definitely wider and lighter than something like the 822 but still a great noise. Leagues and leagues ahead of most of the 830s I've played, and just as easy to play as most of them as well.

musicofnote · Post by **musicofnote** » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:30 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:17 am 622 and 822 are a totally different ballgame than 830. The 822 is a xeno but I wouldn't really include in this conversation.

I included my 822g solely as a response to the comment about the receiver size of the Yamaha - Griego mouthpieces simply disappear in my 822g and even wrapping the mouthpiece shank just made it fit better, but not play differently. But also to show how the piecesI've tried changed my perception of the -feel- without actually changing much of what one hears in front of the bell. But I don't think that the size of the receiver is the deciding factor as to how the feedback of the instrument is. That was my point.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:54 pm

I've finally figured out the exact solution for the 830 that I needed. I built up the shank of my DE bass piece with Teflon tape so that it goes in slightly less than 1". It went from absolute worst bass trombone I've ever played, to actually pretty good. From no sound projection to actually blending with the tubas and adding edge to their sound on loud passages.

It's either a genius leadpipe design that they forgot to include instructions with (now you can dial in "the gap"!), or just the worst design of all time.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:57 pm

I gave up and spent money on a Yamaha 613, better in every way by a mile.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:11 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:57 pm I gave up and spent money on a Yamaha 613, better in every way by a mile.

Yeah dialing in the gap just gets you the best version of an otherwise heavy and weird design. Totally agree

Post by **Matt K** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:57 pm

I wonder if that would work on the YSL8820 too. I've independently found most components of that horn to play well, but the combined sum is... as the 830 is described here. I played one for several years before giving up. But a friend of mine had one as well that he swapped the receiver for a TB4762 slide he had (primarily a bass trombonist) and the bell section played fabulous. I now have the slide section from that very horn and, admittedly with a 525 upper at this point) it plays fabulously on my Shires bell. I wonder if the leadpipe is just funky on it. Boy that would have been a cheaper fix than the 15 years of going down the gear rabbit hole

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:51 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:57 pm I gave up and spent money on a Yamaha 613, better in every way by a mile.

I never really bonded with my 613HS. Which version did you pick up?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:56 pm

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:51 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:57 pm I gave up and spent money on a Yamaha 613, better in every way by a mile.
I never really bonded with my 613HS. Which version did you pick up?

613 no letter. Closed wrap, 10 inch bell in yellow.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:31 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:56 pm613 no letter. Closed wrap, 10 inch bell in yellow.

Those are definitely nice horns! Yamaha was definitely a fan of the 10 in bells for quite a while.

Bomtrone · Post by **Bomtrone** » Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:47 pm

brtnats wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:08 am I play Yamaha and I really enjoy them. I’ve got an 891Z, 882V, and a 822G. I wouldn’t characterize any of them as “dull,” but I will say that the sound on my end is different than the sound out front. Not bad, just different. I like them because they project well, so I don’t have to work as hard. I liked them a lot *more* when I took the time to get mouthpieces fitted to them.

What mouthpieces do you use?

brtnats · Post by **brtnats** » Sun Sep 10, 2023 2:27 pm

Bomtrone wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:47 pm
brtnats wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:08 am I play Yamaha and I really enjoy them. I’ve got an 891Z, 882V, and a 822G. I wouldn’t characterize any of them as “dull,” but I will say that the sound on my end is different than the sound out front. Not bad, just different. I like them because they project well, so I don’t have to work as hard. I liked them a lot *more* when I took the time to get mouthpieces fitted to them.
What mouthpieces do you use?

Picket Brass mouthpieces that I picked out with the horns.

lmalewic · Post by **lmalewic** » Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:40 am

I had issues with my 830 when I first got it (used) because I didn’t realize it would eat up the mouthpiece. What worked perfectly for me and was much better than using Teflon tape was finding and older style Schilke 58 mouthpiece with the longer shank. It made the horn come alive completely. Great core of sound and plenty of feedback. The bell resonates much differently for me with that mouthpiece and it’s the only thing that I found that works. I tried the same thing with an 830 at a trade show and had the same experience. The new 835s have fixed the leadpipe issue. The same thing I find is true with some of the small bore horns like the 891 although to a much lesser extent which doesn’t create the same issues. The older models like the 695 have leadpipes that accept the mouthpiece in a more standard fashion.