How would you choose an alto?

[johntarr]

I’m in the market for an alto without tis. There seem to be a good selection of fine instruments from various makers. The problem for me is that I live in Europe, far away from any large city with a music store that might have a few to try. My interest is something distinctly alto but probably not as light as a German style instrument. I’m partial to smaller companies but open to whatever would work.

Some of the models that seem interesting so far are (in no particular order):
M&W
Adams
Yamaha
Küngl und Hoyer
Sonos
Shires Alessi
???

Not being able to test first makes it kind of overwhelming. How would you go about this?

Thanks for any ideas, John

[SwissTbone]

Buy used and resell with minimal loss may be one strategy. Otherwise travelling to Musik Bertram might be worthwhile.

[harrisonreed]

Get a used 36H, don't touch the tuning slide (or cut it 3/8 inch like I did), and play long on the handslide. Be ready to practice a lot before you are happy with the sound and tuning.

For me, it's the best alto you can get, especially as a first alto.

[johntarr]

Get a used 36H, don't touch the tuning slide (or cut it 3/8 inch like I did), and play long on the handslide. Be ready to practice a lot before you are happy with the sound and tuning.

For me, it's the best alto you can get, especially as a first alto.

I’ve also thought of the 36H, some say it’s not “alto enough.” What makes it the best alto for you? Also, why not touch the tuning slide?

[MStarke]

Obviously depends on your budget and preferences regarding new/used.

In middle Europe, particularly in Germany most accessible models "low-brainer" recommendations are probably Conn 34/36h, Yamaha, Shires and Kühnl & Hoyer.
With all of these you probably wouldn't make a major mistake.

BTW I wouldn't generally describe a German alto as a "light instrument". Voigt etc. are basically making them in any size that you may be interested in and lots of potential variations reg bell garland etc. which allows to really fine-tune it. But obviously this also makes it much more complicated than just buying a "standard" model.

[harrisonreed]

Get a used 36H, don't touch the tuning slide (or cut it 3/8 inch like I did), and play long on the handslide. Be ready to practice a lot before you are happy with the sound and tuning.

For me, it's the best alto you can get, especially as a first alto.

I’ve also thought of the 36H, some say it’s not “alto enough.” What makes it the best alto for you? Also, why not touch the tuning slide?

It's plenty alto enough. This is just me, but the alto you choose is really only 50% of the gear equation -- the alto mouthpiece you choose is equally important. If you throw a 5GS in an alto, no matter what brand you pick, it's going to sound way too big and it won't play in tune. Do yourself a favor and get a Doug Elliott A or B cup, with the regular alto shank that fits that cup, and maybe the Alto S shank if you want to see how that goes. And of course the rim that matches up with whatever you are used to playing. You can guaranteed that the mouthpiece will not be the cause of stretched octaves or partials that are just "out", and you'll be able to easily get a nice light and bright alto sound. It's not a substitute for practice, but it is a great way to have more effective practice from the getgo.

For not touching the tuning slide -- altos are like magnifying glasses for tuning problems. The margin for error on the handslide is much smaller (7 positions still, crammed on a tiny slide). A mouthpiece that is not optimal has its tuning tendencies magnified (if you go sharp on small tenor with it up high, you go really really sharp up high on alto). And interestingly, the tuning problems caused by the cylindrical length in the bell section (the two tuning slide tubes) are magnified too. The whole reason they make TIS altos is because the partials line up nice and clean when the whole bell is conical from start to finish. You play a shires TIS, and it's tuning is money no matter what you do with the TIS mechanism. You can pull it all the way out and put your alto in D(-ish), and the partials will line up how you expect. You play a 36H with the tuning slide closed, and it's pretty darn good, but if you pull it out to "tune" your Eb, it's a completely different horn. Partials all over the place. That's because the cylindrical length in the bell changed.

So, the best bet is to just not touch it. Or cut it shorter. It plays better the less of the tuning legs you leave on there. I cut mine so that Db lines up with the bell. Eb is an inch or so off the bumpers. This gives you TIS, but without the heavy TIS mechanism. My gripe with the Shires TIS alto is that I'm so used to playing tenor/alto long on the slide that I couldn't get used to the where the bell was. If you have the TIS mechanism all the way in, Eb is where I'm used to it being, but Db is a inch or so past the bell. Shires designed it for people to tune Eb at the bumpers, and then
that puts Db dead on at the bell.

Again, that's just me. I would go shires TIS all day if they moved the bell and made the slide lighter. Until then, 36H it is.

[hyperbolica]

Buying used is one way, but getting to what you want can be slow. And shipping can get expensive. I'd probably recommend going to a conference or a shop where they have several vendors set up with horns. Playing 3-4 instruments can be an education in what you want. Travel will be paid for by avoiding a bad purchase and the amount of time you might spend buying and selling used horns.

[BGuttman]

I have the 36H as well. First (and only) alto. I used it in orchestra and also for a while as the 3rd voice in brass quintet.

The rap on the 36H is that at 0.500" bore it's too "wide" to be an alto. Most people who say this are the ones who are looking for the "German Alto" style. I often play tenor parts on my alto and with the Bb attachment it covers all but one note in the tenor range easily.

I found the 36H to be gentle enough to play in an orchestra that supported a choir. I could double the altos (a common thing in choral music) and not drown them out. More support than competition.

Stewbones43 modified his 36H to play in D (lengthened the tuning slide). He likes it because it makes alto clef notes play in the same positions as tenor clef notes on a Bb tenor. I won't applaud or abhor his idea, but you can consider it. It does seem interesting.

[harrisonreed]

I'll add that it is really hard to test altos if you're buying your first alto. It's its own instrument. Imagine trying to playtest your first tenor in the shop on day one.

[MStarke]

I own 3 relatively different altos myself which certainly isn't for everyone.

I chose the Voigt from 3 or 4 vintage German altos when I had zero alto chops. I just went by sound and response in the medium alto range. Not the best approach, but I was lucky.
I bought the Weril just as a cheap second instrument (for my second practice location) and also knew they are much better than their reputation.
And I recently bought the Kanstul because it was a very good deal and I was looking for an instrument that's relatively easy to play. Again risky, but again I was lucky.
In the end I was happy to overall spend around 3000 EUR for all three.

[pedrombon]

Some of the models that seem interesting so far are (in no particular order):
M&W
Adams
Yamaha
Küngl und Hoyer
Sonos -->> SONAS
Shires Alessi
???

Not being able to test first makes it kind of overwhelming. How would you go about this?

Thanks for any ideas, John

.
I took part in the creation and development of the Sonas Aural alto trombone, so if you have any questions, feel free to send me a PM or email (it's on my profile), I'll be happy to advise you.

Best regards,

Pedro

[hornbuilder]

What characteristics does your main tenor have? I find it is easier to go from tenor to alto if the construction of the alto is similar to the large tenor. ie, if you play a tenor with a 1 piece gold brass bell, then having similar bell on the alto makes the transition much easier. Obviously the rest of the horn should be considered, too, like slide tubes and crook.

[GabrielRice]

I'm a bass trombone player, so you can take my thoughts with a bucket of salt, but I would just buy a Yamaha. And then maybe when I've gotten really good at the alto and feel comfortable playing it professionally, I might go shopping for something that fits me and my needs more closely.

I performed in public (well...semi-public...it was an education show so nobody bought tickets for it...and it was with an orchestra I have tenure in...) once on alto trombone, and it was on a borrowed Yamaha.

[johntarr]

I'll add that it is really hard to test altos if you're buying your first alto. It's its own instrument. Imagine trying to playtest your first tenor in the shop on day one.

Thanks for the explanation of why the tis setup is better for intonation.

To be sure, this won’t be my first alto. I have owned a Bach 39 and now have a Rath. I bought the Rath (untested but they did send me two bows and lead pipes) because I was playing their tenors and thought it would make sense stay with the same make. The sound and intonation are good on the Rath but I can’t get used to the tis slide. I also want something that I can play jazz with and improvise in other styles. The alto offers another timbre and color than the tenor and I want to expand my sound palette, if you will. Plus, I like playing the alto, teach youngsters and use it in our community orchestra (which is part of my teaching job).

So, I have an idea of the sound I want and, equally important, the ergonomics and feel.

[johntarr]

What characteristics does your main tenor have? I find it is easier to go from tenor to alto if the construction of the alto is similar to the large tenor. ie, if you play a tenor with a 1 piece gold brass bell, then having similar bell on the alto makes the transition much easier. Obviously the rest of the horn should be considered, too, like slide tubes and crook.

Oh, that’s a tough one, I’m playing a Butler, .547 or .525 bore. Before the Butler, I was playing a Rath R3F with nickel bell and slide. I enjoyed the clarity when playing alone or in small groups but now that I’m playing in a symphony again, I needed something that could take more energy without getting bright. I was lucky enough to have been able to test the Butler and really enjoyed the lighter weight. It does what I need for now.

The best I can describe the alto sound I’m after is clear and not too dense. I’m currently playing a Rath alto with yellow brass bell/slide and a red brass bow. I like the sound, perhaps it could be a little fuller, but I just don’t get along with the tis. I’m thinking of the alto as something to provide contrast to the tenor in my solo project, to use for improvisation and, playing the occasional Brahms and Mozart that come up from time to time.

[MrHCinDE]

In your particular circumstances, I would be tempted to ask around if there are any trombonists in your region, or who you might otherwise meet somewhere, who could be interested in a trade (+/- cash adjustment)?

I would have thought there'd be a few people interested in a Rath TIS also who may have another alto to offer in exchange. The TIS doesn't work for you, but someone else may have been looking out for one of those for ages, they don't often come up used!

Especially if it's someone you know and trust, you can each try out the other's instrument and agree to stick or twist at the end.

Alternatively, many music shops in Europe offer trial periods, also on used instruments, which can be very useful.

[BrassedOn]

I think in this situation, I’d have to do research in person, playing multiple examples of different brands. If you’ve got the sound concept already, that is awesome. So the challenge is finding a mouthpiece and horn match that help get you there. I’ve found the mouthpiece selection highly influential in getting a step closer to that trumpetish “ping”.

So from Sweden, for example, a trip to Adams NE seems in order at some point. Not cheap to travel but cheaper than buying online and being displeased. But before then, I’d think in that situation I would reach out and network with orchestra players, college faculty and players in Stockholm, Gothenburg, etc. Maybe they have a Trombone day in their studio, chance to network, hear horns in person, or know a player who might have a potential trade TIS for standard slide.

[whitbey]

Get a used 36H, don't touch the tuning slide (or cut it 3/8 inch like I did), and play long on the handslide. Be ready to practice a lot before you are happy with the sound and tuning.

For me, it's the best alto you can get, especially as a first alto.

Yes. My first alto.
I choose is because I did not want a china horn. I noticed the 36H seemed be the most wanted as a used horn. So I bought a new about 10 years ago.
The Bb valve was a great teaching aid. Find the note in Bb then find it in Eb.
Then the Bb valve makes a great OS key when you forget the position in Eb.
After you learn the horn you can pull out the valve slide and use it as a trill key for a lot of notes.
Conn is not my style. But with the yellow brass it sounds good.
I have a Markus Laetzsch alto ordered through Noah Gladstone. I am excited about that.

[sctroy]

OS key?

I call it the "panic button."

Steve Troy

[Pezza]

I give the part to the 1st bone player & let them deal with it!

[WGWTR180]

I'm a bass trombone player, so you can take my thoughts with a bucket of salt, but I would just buy a Yamaha. And then maybe when I've gotten really good at the alto and feel comfortable playing it professionally, I might go shopping for something that fits me and my needs more closely.

I performed in public (well...semi-public...it was an education show so nobody bought tickets for it...and it was with an orchestra I have tenure in...) once on alto trombone, and it was on a borrowed Yamaha.

This!! One of the best alto trombonists I know plays a Yamaha. User friendly and priced well.

[elmsandr]

Yeah! For learning I bought a Yamaha for the ease of blow and the price at the time (it was the 90’s and the 671s were VERY affordable then). I wanted a familiar feel and a consistent sound… that worked for what I needed. Sold it for a valve…

Now I’d probably choose one based on how far I could throw it so that nobody expects me to play it.

Cheers,
Andy