Gold Wash Inner Bells

[atopper333]

Hello Again,

I’ve always found the gold wash inner bells especially on King trombones to look really good. Aside from a purely visual aspect, I was wondering what the purpose was for the gold wash?

Was it done to pull a different sound from the instrument? Was it more common in the early 1900s due to some sort of a material concern? Was it purely a styling thing? I’ve tried to search for some reasons but haven’t come up with much, and as usual, curiosity has the best of me and im always looking to learn about the history/or utility of the methods used in older horn construction.

Thanks much for any information on this.

[hyperbolica]

Probably to look good and to prevent the silver from tarnishing. I don't think saying there was gold on an instrument was ever a bad marketing move.

[OneTon]

The gold on my Conn tis tarnished much faster than the silver

[imsevimse]

A good and interesting question. At a time lots of manufacturers had the "goldwash" bells. Why? Hope someone knows and want to share.

/Tom

[tbonesullivan]

Matte silver with a gold washed bell is a pretty classic look from the early part of the 20th century. I've seen lots of brass instruments as well as saxophones like that.

[harrisonreed]

The gold is just lacquer. At least on the silversonics

[hornbuilder]

The gold plating inside solid silver bells is actually gold. It can be applied via an electric brush type applicator, thus it is called a gold "wash". It is "very" thin, and is purely cosmetic. It does help avoid water spots inside the bell, at least when new/in good shape. It can wear relatively easily, since it is so thin.

Lacquer does not stick to silver very well at all, regardless of color.

[harrisonreed]

The gold plating inside solid silver bells is actually gold. It can be applied via an electric brush type applicator, thus it is called a gold "wash". It is "very" thin, and is purely cosmetic. It does help avoid water spots inside the bell, at least when new/in good shape. It can wear relatively easily, since it is so thin.

Lacquer does not stick to silver very well at all, regardless of color.

Is this in reference to something other than the sterling bells from King? All kings are covered in nasty lacquer that is baked on and nearly impossible to remove. It sticks TOO well. I don't doubt you're right, just that it doesn't mesh with my experience or what I've read here.

The usual recommended advice for the silversonics is to remove the lacquer to "open the horn up", but the shop in Japan wouldn't do it when I asked them to. I've read here a bunch of times that the gold wash is just their yellow lacquer, but it could be wrong. My "gold wash" has flaked off in a few spots, like lacquer.

[Posaunus]

The (late 1960s?) King 3B SilverSonic that I had for a few years (on loan) seemed to have a lacquered bell. The (sterling?) silver never tarnished; always looked great. The "gold washed" inner bell also looked terrific - no wear, no tarnish, making me think it was actual gold plate, not just lacquer. (Real gold doesn't "tarnish" and lacquer over sterling silver would not appear to be gold.) I thought the trombone sounded great, and was sad to let it go.

[Finetales]

Was it purely a styling thing?

Yes.

Beautiful ornate engravings on the bell + goldwash on an otherwise silver (often brushed, except for the bell engraving) instrument are just to look cool. And cool they do look!

[Matt K]

Harrison, I dont' know when the "SGX" king models started to be labelled as such, but I've heard he term used with other manufacturers. I want to say, for example, Conns have silver plated with a gold wash bells not electroformed sterling silver bells. The "washing" would then just be like others mentioned, a cosmetic flourish to complement the often very ornate engravings.

[harrisonreed]

The Conn 88H-SGX also has lacquer.

[Matt K]

The Conn 88H-SGX also has lacquer.

Totaly fair, I was thinking more vintage than that, like 1900-1930s.

[harrisonreed]

The Conn 88H-SGX also has lacquer.

Totaly fair, I was thinking more vintage than that, like 1900-1930s.

Yeah the old HN white Silvertones, no doubt those are as described. The old horns had class. It's interesting for sure.

[hornbuilder]

The Conn 88H-SGX also has lacquer.

I wasn't saying they weren't lacquered. I was saying that lacquer doesn't stick well to silver.

[harrisonreed]

Gotcha, I didn't doubt you. All the more reason why I wonder why they put it on the silversonics ... Everyone seems to want to have it removed.

[BGuttman]

I think the lacquer on the Silver Sonics was intended to slow the rate of tarnish.

Note that the gold in the silver bell is not really plated. It is a replacement reaction, where a solution of a gold salt (probably gold chloride) is wiped on the silver surface. The solution deposits a very thin layer of gold while removing an equivalent amount of silver. These replacement reactions do not penetrate the silver surface so the gold left on is almost monomolecular; hence easy to polish off. This is why it's called a "gold wash".

SGX horns are electroformed; i.e. the whole bell is created in a plating bath. This was first done with copper for the Conn Coprion bells. There were silver belled instruments before this, but they were made from sheet sterling silver (92% silver). King was best known for these, but other makers did them as well (but not many).

Silver plating was a popular finish 100 years ago. The plating often had the gold wash I described inside the bell, probably for appearance. You wouldn't bother gold washing a brass bell -- it wouldn't show. I've seen catalogs showing a full gold plate over the silver, although I've never seen one of these in person.

[hornbuilder]

Gotcha, I didn't doubt you. All the more reason why I wonder why they put it on the silversonics ... Everyone seems to want to have it removed.

It does depend on "which" sgx you're talking about. There are some which are fully plated silver after assembly, then parts are gold plated (tuning slide, left hand grip). These are not lacquered

There are others that are not plated. They are lacquered. These are the ones that show bad lacquer adhesion after a period of time.

[atopper333]

Totaly fair, I was thinking more vintage than that, like 1900-1930s.

Yeah the old HN white Silvertones, no doubt those are as described. The old horns had class. It's interesting for sure.

Yeah, I probably should have been more specific about the HN White era and the Conns in the early 1900s. Beautiful and classy horns indeed!

[atopper333]

I think the lacquer on the Silver Sonics was intended to slow the rate of tarnish.

Note that the gold in the silver bell is not really plated. It is a replacement reaction, where a solution of a gold salt (probably gold chloride) is wiped on the silver surface. The solution deposits a very thin layer of gold while removing an equivalent amount of silver. These replacement reactions do not penetrate the silver surface so the gold left on is almost monomolecular; hence easy to polish off. This is why it's called a "gold wash".

SGX horns are electroformed; i.e. the whole bell is created in a plating bath. This was first done with copper for the Conn Coprion bells. There were silver belled instruments before this, but they were made from sheet sterling silver (92% silver). King was best known for these, but other makers did them as well (but not many).

Silver plating was a popular finish 100 years ago. The plating often had the gold wash I described inside the bell, probably for appearance. You wouldn't bother gold washing a brass bell -- it wouldn't show. I've seen catalogs showing a full gold plate over the silver, although I've never seen one of these in person.

Thanks much for the awesome write up on the process, I’ve always been curious on how it was completed. I’ve always known it to be a rather thin layer…this definitely helps me make more sense of the process.

[elmsandr]

…
SGX horns are electroformed; i.e. the whole bell is created in a plating bath. This was first done with copper for the Conn Coprion bells. There were silver belled instruments before this, but they were made from sheet sterling silver (92% silver). King was best known for these, but other makers did them as well (but not many).
…

Are you sure about this for the Eastlake SGX horns, Bruce? I was pretty sure they were sheet stock like the Silversonics out of the same factory rather than the electroformed like the Bach Sterling Plus horns. Haven’t had one in my hands for a long time (15+ years?), but they didn’t remind me of the Bach flares at all. The Electroformed silver flares are soft and extremely malleable, the silversonics not so much and I remember the last SGX Conn I touched more like the silver sonic, but I could be wrong.

Cheers,
Andy

[JoeAumann]

The gold plating inside solid silver bells is actually gold. It can be applied via an electric brush type applicator, thus it is called a gold "wash". It is "very" thin, and is purely cosmetic. It does help avoid water spots inside the bell, at least when new/in good shape. It can wear relatively easily, since it is so thin.

Lacquer does not stick to silver very well at all, regardless of color.

I so appreciate you always providing accurate and clear information.

[OneTon]

(Real gold doesn't "tarnish" and lacquer over sterling silver would not appear to be gold.)

Renold Schilke restored an unspecified tis silver plated Conn in 1972. The slide was 10/10. I do not remember if the gold wash in the bell cost an additional $300.00 or if that was the total bill. But there were at least two long distance phone calls regarding replacing gold wash in the inner bell.

Within weeks of receiving the horn the interior of the bell developed dark leopard spots. The trumpet professor called Mr. Schilke and Mr. Schilke said to send it back to Chicago. Initially UPS picked the horn up on Monday and re-delivered the horn to the “sending” address on Tuesday without sending it to Chicago. UPS picked it up again on Wednesday and the horn was back Thursday afternoon. I thought UPS had screwed up again.

Another long distance phone call was placed to Mr. Schilke who had seen the horn. He declared the spots to be tarnish. Mr. Schilke did not lacquer anything, the gold wash was real, and if Mr. Schilke said the spots were tarnish, the spots were tarnish. That horn must have ridden the eight hours up to Chicago and eight hours back to Tulsa in the passenger seat of one of their day cab tractors.

Mr. Schilke, of blessed memory, was very patient with an idiot student, as was my trumpet professor.

[hornbuilder]

If the silver under the gold wash is not completely clean, before being "washed", it can tarnish, and produce spots.

[OneTon]

You could be right.

[Macbone1]

Marketing was generally less sophisticated 100 years ago. The notion that "the last surface your sound touches is pure gold" may have been considered a selling point.

[tbonesullivan]

Looking into the methods of finishing brass instruments really is pretty interesting. I would assume that raw brass and plated finishes were originally the norm, and it wasn't until quick drying spray lacquer came about that it became a popular finish.

[hornbuilder]

That is correct. Bare brass was the norm, with silver plating being an added extra. Then on top of that, if the customer had some serious cash, they could go for full gold plate, with elaborate engraving.

My '35 70H showed no signs of ever having lacquer on it. I've not really done the research to see when lacquer became available for instrument use. Interesting to note that the left hand grip area was often chrome plated, to help protect that area/the player. (Conn features this into the late 40's I believe)

[greenbean]

That is correct. Bare brass was the norm, with silver plating being an added extra. Then on top of that, if the customer had some serious cash, they could go for full gold plate, with elaborate engraving.
.
My '35 70H showed no signs of ever having lacquer on it. I've not really done the research to see when lacquer became available for instrument use. Interesting to note that the left hand grip area was often chrome plated, to help protect that area/the player. (Conn features this into the late 40's I believe)

I think Holton used chrome plating on hand grip areas until recently. Or was that nickel plating? I forget.

[Burgerbob]

I think Holton used chrome plating on hand grip areas until recently. Or was that nickel plating? I forget.

Chrome, yes.

[hornbuilder]

Yes chrome on Holtons. I don't know if they still do that now they're being made at Elkhart.

[greenbean]

I have a 1960's King sousaphone in silver-plate with gold wash inner bell. That is some serious bling!

[Remington]

My King 3B is a 'concert' from the mid 60's, no plating / lacquered with a gold wash in the bell. I like the subtle look of the gold with the yellow brass.

[Monkhouse]

…
SGX horns are electroformed; i.e. the whole bell is created in a plating bath. This was first done with copper for the Conn Coprion bells. There were silver belled instruments before this, but they were made from sheet sterling silver (92% silver). King was best known for these, but other makers did them as well (but not many).
…

Are you sure about this for the Eastlake SGX horns, Bruce? I was pretty sure they were sheet stock like the Silversonics out of the same factory rather than the electroformed like the Bach Sterling Plus horns. Haven’t had one in my hands for a long time (15+ years?), but they didn’t remind me of the Bach flares at all. The Electroformed silver flares are soft and extremely malleable, the silversonics not so much and I remember the last SGX Conn I touched more like the silver sonic, but I could be wrong.

Cheers,
Andy

Also an electro formed bell would be pure silver, these say they're sterling silver which is ~8% copper.

[OneTon]

SGX horns are electroformed; i.e. the whole bell is created in a plating bath. This was first done with copper for the Conn Coprion bells. There were silver belled instruments before this, but they were made from sheet sterling silver (92% silver). King was best known for these, but other makers did them as well (but not many).

How do they get the shape of the bell in a plating bath?

[BGuttman]

SGX horns are electroformed; i.e. the whole bell is created in a plating bath. This was first done with copper for the Conn Coprion bells. There were silver belled instruments before this, but they were made from sheet sterling silver (92% silver). King was best known for these, but other makers did them as well (but not many).

How do they get the shape of the bell in a plating bath?

The plating cathode is shaped like the finished bell. The metal grows from the cathode outward and you plate until you get the thickness you want. Note that to get a nice, void-free sheet you have to have very good control of the plating bath parameters. Electroforming a bell could take a full day or more.

[OneTon]

Thanks Bruce.

[BellBent]

I think the lacquer on the Silver Sonics was intended to slow the rate of tarnish.

Note that the gold in the silver bell is not really plated. It is a replacement reaction, where a solution of a gold salt (probably gold chloride) is wiped on the silver surface. The solution deposits a very thin layer of gold while removing an equivalent amount of silver. These replacement reactions do not penetrate the silver surface so the gold left on is almost monomolecular; hence easy to polish off. This is why it's called a "gold wash".

SGX horns are electroformed; i.e. the whole bell is created in a plating bath. This was first done with copper for the Conn Coprion bells. There were silver belled instruments before this, but they were made from sheet sterling silver (92% silver). King was best known for these, but other makers did them as well (but not many).

Silver plating was a popular finish 100 years ago. The plating often had the gold wash I described inside the bell, probably for appearance. You wouldn't bother gold washing a brass bell -- it wouldn't show. I've seen catalogs showing a full gold plate over the silver, although I've never seen one of these in person.

With regards to saxophones, in the 1920s a satin-silver finish with a gold-wash bell was pretty much the default finish, at least until the Depression started to bite. You commonly find them today with just a trace of the gold wash left, but horns with the wash intact are pretty common, too. I’ve had a few horns, sax and brass, from that period with either satin or burnished gold plate. Beautiful stuff, something about the gold plate much better looking than gold-plated horns from more recent decades. I don’t know if that’s because the plating was heavier, or something about the process; I think they were electro-plating in tanks back then.

What’s interesting about the ‘20s gold plate over silver is that the silver can tarnish quite badly through the gold plate, but then polish out without any apparent affect on the gold. Don’t know how many times that could be repeated before the gold started to be compromised, though.