Tuning problem

[jkrump1951]

I have been noticing that I have a difficult time getting in tune. My tuning slide is all the way in but I am still a bit flat. After 15-20 minutes of playing, I'm almost there but still distracting. I have a used Benge 65-F with a Bach 1-1/2G mouthpiece that I recently started using. I'm almost regretting giving my old Conn-stellation horn to my nephew's son. Would a different mouthpiece solve my problem?

[BGuttman]

I assume you mean Benge 165 -- I don't think there are any Benge trombones with two digit model numbers.

A 1 1/2 G mouthpiece is a bit big for a Benge 165 (or any tenor). I would suggest going to a tenor sized mouthpiece. Anything from 6 1/2 AL to 3G is considered tenor. If you really like big mouthpieces try a 4G.

What did you play on the ConnStellation? (and which model was it?)

[greenbean]

Yeah, that 1.5G will make you go flat !!

[Posaunus]

The mouthpiece originally provided with most Benge 165F trombones (0.547" bore) was the Benge "Marcellus." Roughly the same size as a Bach 5G, a Schilke 51, a Yamaha 51C4, and many others of similar cup and throat diameter. Appreciably smaller than a Bach 1½G (which is a bass trombone mouthpiece); will play much better in tune.

I recommend selling your Bach 1½G or giving it to a bass trombonist friend.

[harrisonreed]

You aren't using the right mouthpiece

[OneTon]

For what it is worth, albeit a long time ago in not such a far away place, professional trombonists sometimes used Schilke 47 mouthpieces. They will drive a large bore trombone just fine. It might take a while to get used to. But it will also take off some work load. Marcinkiewicz and Stork have some similarly sized mouthpieces to Schilke 47 mouthpieces with more rounded rims or whatever tweak is preferred that will work as well. The fore mentioned mouthpieces are mainstream choices for large bore tenors.

[Matt K]

So, yes, a mouthpiece that large could make you flat. But it could also be fine. Flatness can also be caused by leaks. I'd make sure that the water key isn't leaking at the very least, if not take it to a tech to make sure they don't see anything obviously wrong with it.

[hornbuilder]

How long have you been playing? How "accomplished" are you? How much practice time do you put in? Are you sure the mouthpiece is the issue, and not your chops not centering high enough on the pitch?

An equipment change is never going to be the solution if your playing fundamentals are not sound

[Posaunus]

... a long time ago in not such a far away place, professional trombonists sometimes used Schilke 47 mouthpieces. They will drive a large bore trombone just fine. The fore mentioned mouthpieces are mainstream choices for large bore tenors.

Not for my chops!
A Schilke 47 works fine for me with a 0.500"-0.508" bore trombone, but in my case is much too small for an 88H.
I think the current mainstream would agree with my choice of a larger mouthpiece for a 0.547" bore. (e.g., Schilke 51 or something a little more "current" but similar size.)

[Doug Elliott]

Well sometimes the wrong equipment prevents your playing fundamentals from being sound. That can happen from the mouthpiece being either too big or too small.... for the player OR the horn.

The 1-1/2G is at least a major part of the problem. It may be too big for BOTH the player and the horn.

[Posaunus]

By the way, playing an orchestral-sized Conn 88H (and a Bach 1½G) on the 2nd Trombone part in an 18-piece big band is an ... interesting choice! Most of us would consider this a mismatch.

You might seriously consider going a bit smaller. (Like a 0.500" bore straight tenor trombone with an appropriately-sized mouthpiece.) You would probably play better in tune, and blend much better with your section!

[imsevimse]

I would not recommend anyone to put a 1 1/2G in a tenor trombone unless they plan to use the tenor as a bass trombone, and if they do the intonation will be flat. When I've tried this even though it is possible the partials do not line up and the result is poor for me. It is much better for me to use a smaller mouthpiece in a .547 tenor like a 4G if I want to cover a bass part. It is possible to cover an easy bass trombone part with such a mouthpiece.

/Tom

[brassmedic]

By the way, playing an orchestral-sized Conn 88H (and a Bach 1½G) on the 2nd Trombone part in an 18-piece big band is an ... interesting choice! Most of us would consider this a mismatch.

You might seriously consider going a bit smaller. (Like a 0.500" bore straight tenor trombone with an appropriately-sized mouthpiece.) You would probably play better in tune, and blend much better with your section!

I perused this whole thread and didn't see anything about an "18 piece big band". Did I miss something?

[imsevimse]

By the way, playing an orchestral-sized Conn 88H (and a Bach 1½G) on the 2nd Trombone part in an 18-piece big band is an ... interesting choice! Most of us would consider this a mismatch.

You might seriously consider going a bit smaller. (Like a 0.500" bore straight tenor trombone with an appropriately-sized mouthpiece.) You would probably play better in tune, and blend much better with your section!

I perused this whole thread and didn't see anything about an "18 piece big band". Did I miss something?

It's in the "About me" in the profile.

/Tom

[hornbuilder]

I would not recommend anyone to put a 1 1/2G in a tenor trombone unless they plan to use the tenor as a bass trombone, and if they do the intonation will be flat. When I've tried this even though it is possible the partials do not line up and the result is poor for me. It is much better for me to use a smaller mouthpiece in a .547 tenor like a 4G if I want to cover a bass part. It is possible to cover an easy bass trombone part with such a mouthpiece.

/Tom

FWIW. Michael Mulcahy played a 1.5G in a Conn 8H during his time playing Principal Trombone with the Tasmanian Symphony, many years ago. He sounded awesome (of course) and not flat. Jay Friedman uses, essentially, a bass trombone, with a 3G size mouthpiece. He doesn't play flat either.

[imsevimse]

I would not recommend anyone to put a 1 1/2G in a tenor trombone unless they plan to use the tenor as a bass trombone, and if they do the intonation will be flat. When I've tried this even though it is possible the partials do not line up and the result is poor for me. It is much better for me to use a smaller mouthpiece in a .547 tenor like a 4G if I want to cover a bass part. It is possible to cover an easy bass trombone part with such a mouthpiece.

/Tom

FWIW. Michael Mulcahy played a 1.5G in a Conn 8H during his time playing Principal Trombone with the Tasmanian Symphony, many years ago. He sounded awesome (of course) and not flat. Jay Friedman uses, essentially, a bass trombone, with a 3G size mouthpiece. He doesn't play flat either.

I haven't tried a bass trombone with a 3G size mouthpiece. If the match mouthpiece and horn is good then intonation is not a problem.

I know you make the M&W trombones so you should know just as other hornbuilders here.

To me a deeper cup changes intonation a bit and if the change in cup is big I have to compensate and move my tuningslide in. I just assumed this was caused by the deeper mouthpiece.

I've tried a 1 1/4G in a .547 Conn 88h and then intonation changed to be very flat and the positions did not line up as before. If it was possible I could push my tuningslide in and still play intune. I suppose I could find the positions after a while too. Problem for me is I have already shortened the tuningslide on my trombone so I can not push in more.

The comment from Mathew had me think: "Does the depth of the cup affect tuning?" I will start a new thread with this question. I'm very interested in what Doug and others have to say about this.

By the way the M&W trombones are excellent. I tried one that belong to a friend

/Tom

[Posaunus]

I perused this whole thread and didn't see anything about an "18 piece big band". Did I miss something?

From jkrump1951's Profile:
Stable:
I play a Benge 65f with a Bach 1-1/2G mouthpiece
About Me:
I am 71 and picked up my trombone 8 years ago after 40 years of not playing. I did play all the way through high school and college. When I started back up, I played in a community band and still do. I recently started playing with an 18-piece big band, sitting 2nd.

[Posaunus]

FWIW. Michael Mulcahy played a 1.5G in a Conn 8H during his time playing Principal Trombone with the Tasmanian Symphony, many years ago. He sounded awesome (of course) and not flat. Jay Friedman uses, essentially, a bass trombone, with a 3G size mouthpiece. He doesn't play flat either.

Chicago Syndrome?
And Joe Alessi apparently also uses what most of us mere mortals would consider an "oversized" mouthpiece.
But for the rest of us, who aren't Mick, Jay, or Joe ...

[GabrielRice]

I would join the recommendations that the OP check the instrument out for leaks or other problems.

I would also join the recommendations that the OP play a mouthpiece more typically sized for the instrument.

That said, over the course of my career I have played both medium-sized bass trombone mouthpieces with medium cups and large bass trombone mouthpieces with deep cups. When I play tenor trombone I have used medium to large bass rims on deep tenor or shallow bass cups. In every case, I have had to have my main tuning slides nearly all the way in - or cut shorter - so that I could get up to pitch. Sometimes on bass trombone I use my normal large rim with a fairly shallow bass cup, and my tuning slide moves very little if at all. I have strong, highly functional chops, and I do not make an overly dark or woofy sound.

[Doug Elliott]

I remember from my high school days that every trumpet player who got a flugelhorn for the first time played it about a quarter step flat. After a while they would learn what it took to get it up to pitch. I think we're talking about the same thing here. A 1-1/2G on a .547 isn't a great match, but it can be played in tune by someone who understands what it takes and has the chops to do it.

[harrisonreed]

FWIW. Michael Mulcahy played a 1.5G in a Conn 8H during his time playing Principal Trombone with the Tasmanian Symphony, many years ago. He sounded awesome (of course) and not flat. Jay Friedman uses, essentially, a bass trombone, with a 3G size mouthpiece. He doesn't play flat either.

Chicago Syndrome?
And Joe Alessi apparently also uses what most of us mere mortals would consider an "oversized" mouthpiece.
But for the rest of us, who aren't Mick, Jay, or Joe ...

Joe's piece is the correct overall length, and has a relatively shallow cup. At least his Griego series did. Especially when compared to a 1.5G

[lupusargentus]

I play a Stork 1.5 on my bass and a 5 on my large bore tenor. For me, that's a really good setup.
I think there is a lot to be said for the idea, most players use X size range mouthpieces with Y bore size.
When I was shopping for bass mouthpieces I tried a couple larger ones and even on my bass trombone they played flat.

[Matt K]

When I last commented I had assumed this was a new thing, not that OP had perpetually been flat. Meaning they weren’t introducing something new equipment wise but we’re experiencing a sudden onset of flatness. It occurs to me that the assumption may be unfounded while also being true that OP hasn’t played chronically flat forever. So apologies for that assumption.

I agree that for 2nd in a big band that equipment is not helping. Could be that OP isn’t used to playing that high that consistently and the huge rim/cup isn’t helping. Though having your horn checked for leaks is seldom a bad idea.

More pertinent to the direction this discussion is going… I find that if I’m going to pick up something radically different than what I’ve been doing (eg I haven’t touched my bass much this summer, been mostly on tenor) or even just using a deeper cup or something than I’m used to, I have to pull out the drones and play with them for 15-20 minutes to lock in the intonation. Otherwise my sound, particularly for large cups, either lacks depth or runs flat… or both. Especially 3rds and 6ths. If I can get a good sound out of those, everything else falls into place pretty quickly.

[btone]

My experience in over 50 years of playing many different small and large bore trombones and valved low brasses, using mouthpieces of all sizes, is that when you try different mouthpieces on a small bore or a large bore tenor, as you are trying deeper and deeper cups, you come to a point in which the upper partials can become flat. That always seemed to me to be the sign that I had gone too far on cup depth for a particular instrument. I have no doubt that some people can over-ride that tendency but I don't see much sense in training myself to blow sharper on my upper partials.

[ssking2b]

you need to use the right tool for the job. I don't think you have that.