Sound character of crooks

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Chatname
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Sound character of crooks

Post by Chatname »

My impression from my slides is that the wide slides (Bach style) are broader or wider in sound and narrower slides (Conn style) are more centered or focused. Is this some physical phenomenon caused by the shape of the curves of the crook? Or is it mainly due to Bach style slide crooks having a larger diameter than Conn style crooks?
Thank you!
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harrisonreed
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by harrisonreed »

I have no answers, but don't forget about one bend, two bends, and square bends. In my experience the worst crook was a small bore, narrow, double square bend crook. At least that was the most difficult horn I've ever tried to play.
hornbuilder
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by hornbuilder »

If you are talking specifically about Bach and Conn crooks, then yes, it is because of the part bore size difference.

If you were to compare 2 crooks of different width, but the same bore and shape, you would find they sound very similar.
Matthew Walker
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Chatname
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by Chatname »

I don’t mean Conn/Bach specifically, I’m curious about the effect of the crook design in general. Forgive my ignorance, I honestly don’t know anything about this: if the crooks are equally long but the slides are of different widths, wouldn’t the shape necessarily have to be different? By the way Matthew, are the slide pipes on your narrow slides equally long as the pipes on your wide slides?
And are there more resistance in the square crooks of the wider slides, and that’s why it’s popular with larger bores, even bass bores, on these? I don’t know whether the bore is different on the MWs crooks, though.
Harrison: what is a double square bend crook??
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nbulgarino
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by nbulgarino »

I see what you're asking, and the short answer is in a cosmic sense, everything effects the sound somehow. How much depends on so many variables that you can discuss hypotheticals all day.

The shape of the crook could refer to a number of aspects. The most important is the diameter of the crook. That will impacts how it blows and sounds more than the shape of the bend. For example, the Bach crooks on a standard 42 slide are .562. Try a slide with a .547 crook and see what happens... The Yamaha 882OR has a variable taper crook (somewhere in the neighborhood of .550 something) and is nickel. Conn slides are .547 all the way around.

In my experience, the material the crook is made of makes more of an impact on the sound of the crook than anything else. Conn crooks are nickel, which tend to center the tone. Bach crooks (on standard weight all brass slides) are brass. The nickel versions of Bach slides play more centered despite the fact that they have the same inner dimensions (.547 tubes and a .562 crook). If you put a nickel crook on a brass Bach slide, you get a similar effect to the Conn slide, where it plays more centered.

Note that I think the above comparison is an apple to oranges type thing; it doesn't make sense to really compare them this way.

Now interestingly, I had a Bach 42 LT N (narrow) slide for a while. Same crook shape (squared off) as the standard Bach lightweight slide (.547 tubes with a .562 crook). The crook made the slide the same width as the 36 slide. I noticed no difference in sound or playability. The intonation was a little off from the standard 42 LT slide, but that's it. So I think that the width of the crook doesn't impact as much as you may think.
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BGuttman
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by BGuttman »

One other point: all King slides, from the 2B to the 8B, have a single radius crook. Naturally the larger bore horns have larger radius crooks. I haven't really compared the response between, say, a King 4B and my Yamaha 682 (I did have both at one time) but the problem is that there were so many differences in the rest of the instrument that a straight comparison is impossible.

I've never seen either a single radius or a dual radius crook as being particularly superior. In fact, the whole package is way more than a sum of parts. I can say, though, that a slide crook made of two 1/2" elbows soldered to a length of 1/2" pipe is MUCH worse than any made crook. (That was a real bargain basement repair job.)
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ithinknot
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by ithinknot »

nbulgarino wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:47 am .562
All your numbers are wrong. They indicate the relationships you're describing, but the 'usual' crook ID matches the ID of the slide *outer* tubes, not the inners. Stocking thickness and clearance adds another .035-.045 to the inner tube ID. The crook shared by the 50 and 42 is thus from '.562 world', but the actual diameter is around .600.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by harrisonreed »

Chatname wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:15 am Harrison: what is a double square bend crook??
Image

The Bach 16 crook... I was so sad the few times I've had to play one.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by hyperbolica »

The closest I ever came to this question was when I put a "wide glide" on a Conn 10h. The 10h has a slide like a 6h, so fairly narrow, and the wide glide crook was almost like a 36b as I remember. There was a gap of time in getting the work done, but the difference in sound was minimal. 10h is under most circumstances a pretty dark sounding horn, the crook might have opened it up a tiny bit, but not much. Bach, Conn and King tend to have distinctive crook shapes, but I don't think those shapes alone don't drive the sound. Manufacturers and some players, so there is a common folklore on the issue but no hard facts. Why horn builder says is the closest you'll find to reliable info.
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BrianJohnston
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by BrianJohnston »

There's so much that goes into this.

Crook shape, crook size, crook material, slide sleeve width, thickness.

There are some descriptions, especially on Shires website which is good. Only true way to describe is to try yourself.
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by JOH200B »

Hey all: I have a question about the shape of crooks. I'm an adult amateur who took up trombone when I was 50. Upper range has always been a challenge for me. For a long time I've played a .505 bore B
Getzen Jazz Series, red bell. I love the horn; great sound and light weight. Recently, to focus more on some classical music I bought a second hand Bach 200B with F attachment. It is similar to the Bach 36 -.525 bore - but advertised as an Intermediate rather than Professional horn. I am finding it much harder to play the top notes of the range I am able to play consistently on the Getzen (lost the top 3 or 4 for a while) and even sometimes struggle to play high B or C or C# that are easy on my Getzen.
The Bach slide is a good 3/4 inch or more wider than the Getzen slide and whereas the Getzen has a single radius crook, the Bach is the double radius style (brass). I've read here and elsewhere that the Bach style double radius is thought to create more resistance. I am wondering about replacing the Bach crook with a single radius brass crook assuming that an appropriate bore size crook is available somewhere. Obviously this will cost some $$$. I do have access to an excellent brass instrument repair/maintenance guy.
Does anyone have experience or advice relevant here - would using a single radius crook possibly make higher range notes easier to play? Any important trade offs to consider? Does the idea make sense or is it just silly and I should forget about it? Thanks for your inputs.
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Burgerbob
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by Burgerbob »

JOH200B wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:42 pm Hey all: I have a question about the shape of crooks.
I'd say there are probably a few other factors that would make it harder to play in the high range other than the crook. I would assume it's a copy of the 36 crook, which blows fine.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by Doug Elliott »

There are many possible reasons for your range issues. The end crook isn't one of them.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by hyperbolica »

I've swapped out two crooks in my time. One was on a 10h, I got a nickel silver Wide Glide from DJ. It changed the sound a little. But the 10h is already pretty "broad" sounding. The material of the crook is probably as much influence as the geometry.

The second was a 32h, I put a yellow brass Yamaha 356 crook on it. Again, the 32h has a distinctive sound, and the wider crook broadened it somewhat, but it wasn't much. It also opened it up a little. Mostly on the 32h, the big difference was ergonomics, a physically wider slide was way more comfortable.

I'd be careful about trying to micro engineer individual components to pick a specific sound. There are a lot of variables in instruments, and if you notice, the designers sometimes combine opposites to balance characteristics - light bell, heavy slide. Red bell, nickel silver slide. Rose outer slides, nickel crook. A lot of acoustic design turns out to be experimental.
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by JOH200B »

Thanks for the feedback guys. Appreciate your thoughts. And yes, I'm pretty sure there are several range issues I still haven't solved for. .
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Re: Sound character of crooks

Post by imsevimse »

I think if we consider horns are the same bore size and close in material then the closer a change is to the nose the larger the impact. First there is you, your technique and your body, next is the mouthpiece, after this the leadpipe. The tuningslide and the bell are about the same distance from the nose, which means not very close. The slide end crook is far away from the nose compared to all the other things. This is a simple way of looking at what matters most, maybe a lucky shot that just fit trombones, but it is how I see it (YMMV)

/Tom
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