Modular v Straight...with a slight twist

[Gribnes]

In theory or actually/virtually:
Will a modular horn in its' straight configuration play the same as (all things equal) a purpose built straight horn? Does the brazing it self make a tonal/resonance difference compared to screw/clamp down f section bits?

[Burgerbob]

It won't be the same, no.

[Rob1662]

I had exactly this done with a modular horn, removed the connectors and soldered, it was loads better afterwards.

[Matt K]

All of the parts have to fit together very precisely for best results. Modular horns can achieve this but you typically have to have the pieces you want and then have a tech heat up the solder points so that they give just enough to be fit exactly for those parts. M&W makes modular horns but they aren’t like say Shires horns. Each M&W is made to be a collection of parts rather than making a bunch of individual parts to spec. (Matt probably has a better way of describing that).

That said, I remember Ben griffin mentioning awhile ago that the reason that Shires made small bores fixed rather than modular was that the larger horns had less difference in solid vs modular and you had a lot more common F attachment options vs the 95+% straight and 5 (probably fewer)% rotary on small bores.

So it makes sense that soldering the horn together made a positive difference although you may have gotten a similar benefit from refitting all the parts… but the cost would have probably been the same and if you don’t want modular there isn’t much benefit to it

[hyperbolica]

Is it true that you need to have a modular horn to have axial valves? I've never seen an axial that wasn't also modular. Even cheap Chinese horns. The valve/neckpipe assembly has to disassemble from the bell to take the valves apart, right? So the first axial horns also had to be modular. Is that right? Was the modular system made necessary by axials, or did modular system exist first and simply enabled axials?

I've never owned axials, and only owned a modular for a short time. It seems to me I'm not missing much. I've played both at shows, but never got a lot of time on either.

[brassmedic]

Is it true that you need to have a modular horn to have axial valves? I've never seen an axial that wasn't also modular. Even cheap Chinese horns. The valve/neckpipe assembly has to disassemble from the bell to take the valves apart, right? So the first axial horns also had to be modular. Is that right? Was the modular system made necessary by axials, or did modular system exist first and simply enabled axials?

I've never owned axials, and only owned a modular for a short time. It seems to me I'm not missing much. I've played both at shows, but never got a lot of time on either.

The first axials were not modular. It's true you have to remove the neckpipe to disassemble the valve, since it is soldered to the bearing plate, but the bell to receiver brace doesn't necessarily have to be removable.

[ithinknot]

The first axials were not modular. It's true you have to remove the neckpipe to disassemble the valve, since it is soldered to the bearing plate, but the bell to receiver brace doesn't necessarily have to be removable.

Plus there's no absolute requirement for bracing etc to match any particular standard. To me, 'modular' generally implies fitting into some manufacturer's World o' Parts. (I'd just say that something else has a removable bell. We don't think of all tuning slides as modular just because they come out.)


...To the original question, the different weight and vibration-transmitting properties of the bracing can't mean nothing.

Modularity exists to facilitate a particular customer experience and certain aspects of production economics. (And it makes some repairs easier, etc etc.) That's not necessarily to imply a significant downside, but it wasn't some sudden discovery that 1/2-32 threads made for musical magic.

[Jimkinkella]

It won't be the same, no.

This is correct.

I've had (and still have) a number of modular horns, they all tend to play significantly better either with valve or without.
It's never an even tradeoff.
ymmv

[Thrawn22]

I had a horn made modular and it played better than when i first got it.

However results may vary.

[Matt K]

I had a horn made modular and it played better than when i first got it.

However results may vary.

I suspect they’d only vary to the extent that the tech assembled it with tighter or looser tolerances can what they were before doing the work (and this would apply to making modular horns fixed as well. I have a hypothesis that one of the contributors to the Thayer valve being as popular as it was/is has to do with the fact that the initial ones were conversions of otherwise good instruments.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I’m surprised this has not been mentioned yet……

There are a couple of inherent problems with modular designs in trombone:

1. It is very difficult to design and produce components that are absolutely tension-free when they are put together. There is usually at least one place that is being pulled/tugged the slightest bit in one direction or another when those threaded connectors are tightened. A few years ago, I noticed that the many components on my Edwards bells were close, but not really perfectly aligned. I spent several hours making very small adjustments in the solder joints so that every connection was absolutely tension-free and nothing was being moved when the threaded nuts were tightened. It made a world of difference in how the instrument played! I have made similar adjustments to several other players’ instruments in recent years with great results.

2. The other issue is very similar. If a musician is playing on a modular instrument instrument, the chances are pretty high that the modular components that are NOT on the horn are getting out of alignment. Especially the components that have brace tubes sticking out four or five inches. It only takes the slightest bit of a twist on one of those brace tubes to create a lot of tension when it is put together with the other components.

The moral of the story is that any trombonist should not assume that their modular bell section is tension-free. My recommendation is to assume that it has tension and there are easy steps to check for that (possibly a great topic for another thread).

There are reasons some trombone makers prefer to produce bells that have all the components soldered in place. Possibly they are wary of the possible tension problems that can occur with modular components.

I would like to hear from someone like Matthew Walker on this topic. Most of the instruments that come out of his M&W shop are NOT modular and his instruments are fantastic players. I am wondering if the potential tension problems are the reason he builds them that way. By the way Matthew…….I was at a rehearsal last night with a guy who was playing one of your large-bore tenors. Great musician playing a great instrument……it was a treat!

[OneTon]

The moral of the story is that any trombonist should not assume that their modular bell section is tension-free. My recommendation is to assume that it has tension and there are easy steps to check for that (possibly a great topic for another thread).

1. I would be very curious to learn the easy steps to check for tension. It is very polite to not hijack a thread. In this case it may be pertinent since it would go to the remedy for a modular horn not playing as well as its fixed solder siblings. Likewise I hope to hear from the technicians.

2. Fixed brace instruments will not play optimally if they are assembled with residual stresses or residual stress is induced by accident or abuse.

3. Would modular components benefit from dummy fittings installed to prevent damage while not in use?

4. Would modular components benefit with the addition or substitution of braces designed more in the style of Olds and Reynolds, and/or lengthened appropriately in the style of the King 2b/3b?

[brassmedic]

The first axials were not modular. It's true you have to remove the neckpipe to disassemble the valve, since it is soldered to the bearing plate, but the bell to receiver brace doesn't necessarily have to be removable.

Plus there's no absolute requirement for bracing etc to match any particular standard. To me, 'modular' generally implies fitting into some manufacturer's World o' Parts. (I'd just say that something else has a removable bell. We don't think of all tuning slides as modular just because they come out.)

I've always thought the word modular, as it applies to trombones, refers to the function of the finished products, not how it was manufactured. The idea of having threaded connectors, as I remember it, came about because it was the only way to disassemble a Thayer valve, which you need to do for cleaning. The idea of using those same threaded connectors to enable swapping out components came later, first as custom modifications, and later with manufacturers building the instruments this way. It's interesting to note that trombones were "modular" as early as the 16th century. We don't really know why they were built that way. It wasn't until a couple hundred years later that they started soldering everything together.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The moral of the story is that any trombonist should not assume that their modular bell section is tension-free. My recommendation is to assume that it has tension and there are easy steps to check for that (possibly a great topic for another thread).

1. I would be very curious to learn the easy steps to check for tension. It is very polite to not hijack a thread. In this case it may be pertinent since it would go to the remedy for a modular horn not playing as well as its fixed solder siblings. Likewise I hope to hear from the technicians.

2. Fixed brace instruments will not play optimally if they are assembled with residual stresses or residual stress is induced by accident or abuse.

3. Would modular components benefit from dummy fittings installed to prevent damage while not in use?

4. Would modular components benefit with the addition or substitution of braces designed more in the style of Olds and Reynolds, and/or lengthened appropriately in the style of the King 2b/3b?

Hey Richard....as long as we keep the conversation focused on modular vs. straight, I think we are keeping the conversation pertinent. I hope it can help the OP!

First of all, I did not wish to imply that fully soldered bell sections are superior to modular bell sections. I agree with some of the previous contributors when they state that a change of construction in one direction or the other will almost certainly CHANGE the way an instrument will play. A very well-constructed modular instrument should result in a great player! Likewise the same model of instrument, if well-constructed with all soldered parts, should result in a great player! The two instruments will simply be different.

One of the points that I wish to make is that the modular components might be a little more vulnerable, especially when the parts are not assembled with their matching parts. I also think that there are many people who assume that instruments made with modular parts will automatically be the best instruments available. This is not true! If the modular parts do not fit together accurately, the potential for a dog is very high!

Concerning your four inquiries......

1. When I check for stresses in a modular trombone bell, I always start with the tuning slide legs. Using a caliper, I check to see if the legs are equidistant and absolutely parallel. Tuning slide legs must be checked on two different axes and I try to get them to be perfect. However, sometimes I end up with a stubborn horn and need to settle for within .002 or .003 inch. Considering that some tuning slide legs are not parallel by .040 inch or more, this correction alone can make a significant difference in how an instrument plays.

After the tuning legs are settled, I tighten one of the thread nuts to see how the other looks without the nut engaged and then vice versa. This is where you can tell if the braces are creating tension. I have an Edwards in the shop right now that needs adjustments......the photo below is that horn. You can see that the lower bell brace on the straight gooseneck does not meet the other side of the connector perfectly when the upper screw is tightened (gently) the entire way. This particular brace needs to be moved toward the bell stem and realigned so that the threaded nut is not "squeezing" parts together and creating tension. Sometimes, I will need to go back and forth between the two braces until both line up exactly with no stress. HOWEVER....when this is adjustment is completed, it does not mean that it will automatically fit other bells/goosenecks,valves in the Edwards system!

2. I absolutely agree that fixed braces will not play optimally if they are assembled with stress or incur trauma that move the components around. However, the modular instrument is easier to diagnose for stresses after any trauma. On a modular horn, you do not need to unsolder anything to make that diagnosis!

3. I don't think that dummy fittings are necessary. If a trombone player has extra fittings that can be PAIRED, I think it would be intelligent to keep them assembled together because they are less vulnerable that way. I recommend that trombonists store extra components in a safe, hazard-free place at home. Too many times, I see extra goosenecks forced into a narrow compartment in the case/gig bag with a dozen other items. Every time something new is shoved into that compartment, one of the brace tubes could be bent slightly. The worst thing that I see is goosenecks (and the occasional rotor section) being stored in the soft outer compartment of a gig bag/case. Every time that case bumps into a wall or doorway, a piece of tubing/brace is potentially denting or bending.

4. Richard, I don't quite understand this question concerning components from Olds, Reynolds and King. All of these brands have used both "fixed length" brace tubes and "adjustable length" brace tubes. Personally.....I always prefer adjustable brace tubes because they provide more assembly options and make it easier to assemble an instrument with no tension. When using a "fixed length" brace components, everything in that section of the instrument must be built around that one particular component....the options are more limited.

[OneTon]

4. Richard, I don't quite understand this question concerning components from Olds, Reynolds and King. All of these brands have used both "fixed length" brace tubes and "adjustable length" brace tubes. Personally.....I always prefer adjustable brace tubes because they provide more assembly options and make it easier to assemble an instrument with no tension. When using a "fixed length" brace components, everything in that section of the instrument must be built around that one particular component....the options are more limited.

I appreciate the in depth response. I don’t have it in for modular horns. Everything is a trade off. The OP asked an excellent question which allows us to explore how to get the most out of either configuration. I am waiting for parts to complete a 0.525 Shires trombone which will be more modular than anything that I have previously owned.

We probably agree that cases and the things people put in cases cause more damage and repair than people realize. I will admit to being OCD about it. Ill fitting cases and foreign objects are more likely to degrade modular component fit up and performance than a conventional soldered horn. By extension, the trombone player that chooses modular has entered into a realm more similar to woodwind players where keys and rods must be realigned at some interval, which isn’t the same problem for fixed brace horns.

The picture is a good example of item 4’s question. The left fitting is analyzed as a pin connection in physics and engineering statics. The fitting for the tube on the right probably is as well. Flexibility can be a blessing or a curse. When a device exhibits too much displacement, fairly lightweight corner braces and/or lengthening the soldered joint can be used to stiffen the joint and perhaps adjust the horns attenuation. I am now looking at modular component attachment fittings and soldered brace joints differently than I did before. I have seen swoopy corner braces on Olds, Reynolds, and Yamaha trombones that may be more than adornment. Thank you.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Thanks Richard! I really like the reference to woodwind instruments.

You have brought up a very important variable…….the length, strength and thickness of flanges (you refer to them as corner braces) and brace tubes. A weak, easily-flexed flange can really mess with the alignment and tension of an instrument, especially if things get bumped around. I have a Jupiter student instrument that I am currently trying to “upgrade” and the bendy (probably the best word to describe them) flanges are really presenting some issues. I am fabricating some of the brace parts to make things more stable. Considering the value of the instrument, I find myself saying “why am I doing this?” a lot!

[OneTon]

By way of clarification, the opposite of a pin connected joint is fixed, which can react a moment. May the planets find favorable alignment for your Jupiter repair.

[whitbey]

I find on my Edwards that tightening the screws an extra 45 degrees with pliers helps the horn.
And with the screws set have the solder joints adjusted by a good tech to remove the tension.
I had this done on one horn. then had the straight part on the valve section done. Then fitted the second bell to the straight part and the bell.

Was done years ago. still good. My brass bell really likes the straight pipe. My sterling silver has less change and I think it plays better with the valve. The new CR.