Comprehensive list of Int to Adv trombones?

[JKno]

Is there a comprehensive list of intermediate to advanced/pro horns out there? These modern "buying guides" look more like paid adverts...

[Mamaposaune]

I have not seen one, but I'll bet the collective hive-minds on this forum can come up with a pretty good one.

[Finetales]

That would be an extremely long list, unless you kept it to mainstream manufacturers. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of makers around the world (most of them small) that make professional-level trombones.

Still...I would definitely not be opposed to contributing to a trombone encyclopedia/database.

[JKno]

That would be an extremely long list, unless you kept it to mainstream manufacturers. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of makers around the world (most of them small) that make professional-level trombones.

Still...I would definitely not be opposed to contributing to a trombone encyclopedia/database.

Understood, I would say more readily available in the US. Bach, King, Yamaha, Horton, Besson, Conn etc

For an example, (more of a guess as my knowledge is extremely limited)
Bach Tenor w/ F
Intermediate Model 411
Intermediate Model TB200
Adv/Pro Stradivarius Model 42

My end goal with this is to have an idea what is out there and have a better idea of which models are better than student, before purchasing my next horn. So right now I have a Conn Director, I shouldn't really look at a King 606 as it's another student level trombone.

I guess the list doesn't need to be comprehensive, but little bits added together would certainly help shape a compiled chart. I am very impressed with the talent/knowledge pool here and their willingness to share info.

[BGuttman]

Yamaha calls the step-up lines the 400 series (and the 548)
King has the 607/608 and curved brace Tempo as step-up

Yamaha calls the pro lines the 600 series,
King pro horns have model numbers ending in B (2B, 3B, etc.)

Yamaha has a premium line called Xeno and has model numbers in the 800s

Some of the others are more nebulous, so I hope others will chime in.

[boneagain]

The answer to your question is "42."

My end goal with this is to have an idea what is out there and have a better idea of which models are better than student, before purchasing my next horn. So right now I have a Conn Director...

This is, to me, the most important part of your post. Your first post was too broad a topic. It had zero restrictions on age of horn, type of playing, personal abilities. It would have been valid to simply point yo to "horn-u-copia.net" and emphasize how much bang for the buck you get on an out-of-production horn.

This refinement says you have a Conn Director and feel ready to move on. That's still pretty broad, but more useful.

The more closely you can state your goals the better you can phrase search terms. Once you have those you can search here directly, or by using the "site:" parameter in duckduckgo.

For example, if you decide you want a mostly big band lead or ride horn that projects better than a director you will find answers ranging from another student horn (Yamaha YSL-354) to King to Bach to Courtois to Jupiter and beyond.

A simple table of ALL the intermediate and pro horns is really pretty irrelevant. From what you've already modified of your original post I believe what you really need is a sub-list of horns that go from where you are to making whatever it is you like to play easier.

Why is the answer to your question "42"? This is the answer to "life, the universe... everything" in Douglas Adams' (no relation) "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." This answer had two implications for the askers:
1) they asked the wrong question
2) the right question was going to take stupendous thought to come up with then answer

I expect you will have lots of questions like this on your trombone journey. This is a good place to ask them. You will get LOTS of help with #2

[Matt K]

I would push back that a pro horn is always better than an intermediate and likewise is better than a student horn. That’s sometimes true. But sometimes it’s not. Even to this day, there are minimal differences between the “pro” line up and the student line up for some manufacturers. I’m some cases, it’s the difference between nickel trim on the hand slide grip and bracing vs. brass bracing.

In your specific example, the Conn Director might not be cutting it for you but a king 606 still might be an upgrade for you. Likewise, someone could have a king 606 and the opposite could be true. Sticking to king, it could also be that a 3B would indeed be better. It a lot of times the “intermediate” level horns are just different compared to the student horns - often times they are medium bore and have an f attachment whereas almost all student horns are smaller bore and do not have an f attachment.

So I would start with what you don’t like about the director, what you want to use the new horn for, and what your budget is. A Bach 42B would not be an improvement if you want to play jazz (well, usually…) even though it’s a “pro” instrument.

Another consideration I’d quality of manufacturer. I would frequently choose a domestic (us for me) or European instrument over an import from the east. But then, Yamaha make some superb horns, so that’s not a rule either. And that isn’t to say that horns from China are always inferior either. But parts for many US (and Yamaha) instruments in particular still have readily available parts even for discontinued models and the parts used are often built very well (but there are exceptions, common exceptions even). That is less true of some of the low cost, imported horns.

And so I’d personally choose a Yamaha YSL354 or a 356 (both student horns) over many “pro” horns and, indeed, I have made that choice for a long time and only recently switched to something else. Although, I’m probably replacing the 356 with a King mostly “intermediate” or student parts.

[hyperbolica]

Another consideration is if you're interested in new, recent, or "vintage" instruments. If you go back far enough, there is no such thing as a student instrument. It was maybe in the 50s or 60s when that differentiation came into being. The Conn Directors, King 6xx, Bach Mercury/Mercedes instruments and the Olds Ambassador were the primary older student horns. You might do better to list the student horns so you know what to avoid.

Most of what I play are horns made before 1970. I have a couple of newer instruments, but those are not my primary axes.

The most common vintage tenor models (in some case the models are also currently available)

Bach 42, 36, 16, 12, 8, 6
Conn 88h, 8h, 52h, 78h, 79h, 50h, 32h, 30h, 48h, 6h, 10h, 24h, 4h, 12h
King 5b, 4b, 3b, 2b
Benge 190, 165, 175, 170
Holton 150, 160, 158, 156, 159
Olds Opera, Recording, Standard, Super
Martin Urbie 4501, Committee
Selmer Bolero
Yamaha YSL 6xx, 8xx

This isn't a comprehensive list, and doesn't include bass models. Then you have to go through and figure out what bore range you're interested in. This list includes 0.485 - 0.547+.

If you have a Director, a sensible upgrade would be a King 3b, Bach 16 or 36, Conn 78/79h, 6/48h. But the style of playing you want to do might factor in as well. Concert band? Big band? Community band? Church groups? Dixie/jazz/New Orleans? Orchestra?

[JKno]

"The number 42" Love it!
I appreciate all of the answers!
Ok, further refinement to the question... I am looking to step up from a Conn Director to something that will better match my interests: First would be to play with the community band (12ish people), my personal interests include Dixieland, Ska, swing/Big Band. I'm looking at used with a budget of ~$1k or so.

Understanding I may not find the "One horn to rule them all" and I could wind up with a quiver full by the end... lol

[hyperbolica]

Based on your requirements, I would narrow it down to Conn 78h, 6h, 48h, Bach 16, 16m, 12, 8, King 3b, 2b, Martin Urbie Green 4501

[Matt K]

Welcome to the chat, firehose is all we do around here. (Or maybe just me?)

I agree with hyperbolica. A good "intermediate" or "pro" horn on the used marked will give you some really good bang for your proverbial buck. I would personally recommend a medium bore F attachment since you mentioned you might end up with a "quiver" at the end. Most players use a "small bore" horn for jazz, but you can use a medium bore no problem. Likewise, many "amateur" players (and I do not mean that in a pejorative sense) use medium or large bore horns for classical stuff like your community band. The F attachment gives you access to notes you might not otherwise have and makes facilitating the low range you often are "related" to in wind band scores much easier.

So a medium bore with F will cover all your bases and may well be an "everything" horn to you, but you also may find that you can pick up another small bore horn or continue using the director for Jazz. You may be surprised what a slide job and a little elbow grease from a tech can do to make your director be a sufficient instrument. Or you may even find another "student" or similarly priced small bore works great for jazz, then you will have a horn that is optimal for both of the types of playing you have. Again, assuming that the medium bore isn't sufficient.

Having recently been turned onto the King 607F lineup (King's "intermediate" medium bore), I'm really digging mine now. They also have a "Pro" version of the horn a King 3BF+ (or for that matter, maybe even the 3BF which is a .508 "small" bore) might be a good fit. All can be found used for a reasonable price.

Yamaha also have the YSL645 (no F attachment) and YSL646 (F attachment) that are good options, again at a good price. The 356 is an interesting instrument with a 500/525 bore but the "medium" bore bell section that I also played for years.

The Conn 78H mentioned above would also play nice for your needs.

You might also be able to find a Bach 36B or Bach 36BO used.

That list isn't exhaustive but if you pick up anything on that list, you'll have a pretty good medium bore, probably with F attachment, for sure.

[blap73]

You mentioned you currently have a Director. It might help if you tell us which model of Director. There's the 14H, 18H (two varieties - Brass v. copper bell), 22H. Each is going to be a bit different. The earlier ones are smaller bore.

I currently have a King 606, Conn Director 18H (late Brass bell), and a Conn 4H. The Conn 4H (1950) plays wonderfully for my similar to your general purpose work - playing 2nd in a community wind band. I had been using the 606 initially and upgraded to the 4H. Interestingly since I'll be travelling and doing a parade I've picked the 606 back up (less valuable so taking it) and there are things about the 606 that are notably different than the 4H. Some better, some not, IMO. The 606 blows easier, particularly down in 6/7 positions, is louder, and previously I felt the tone was brighter. I feel like the 606 doesn't slot as reliably as the 4H - for me. The 4H is still my favorite at this point. I feel the 4H is overlooked because it isn't a 'big enough bore'. And so I was able to get mine for about the same price as I paid for the 606. If I could play it like this... !

[JKno]

You mentioned you currently have a Director. It might help if you tell us which model of Director. There's the 14H, 18H (two varieties - Brass v. copper bell), 22H. Each is going to be a bit different. The earlier ones are smaller bore.

Hey blap73, mine is a 16H. I wasn't aware of the multiple models of director! I did get the slide cleaned up with a snake and Dawn... Some Slide-O-Mix and it's a lot better now.
I appreciate your input. I had a chance to honk on a Yamaha YSL-354 the other day and found it easier to play. For me, that means hitting the note I wanted without the need to adjust embouchure and intonation. Guy at the used equipment shop was a brass player and he grabbed a Blessing and walked a couple of scales together. Not sure if it was the horn or the mouth piece though. The Yamaha sounded better to both of us. There's a YSL-356R for sale locally, so I may look at it.

ETA: Wow, that was nice to listen to!

[harrisonreed]

3BF yo, fits everything you asked for. Including any part in community band.

[boneagain]

Ok, further refinement to the question... I am looking to step up from a Conn Director ...

The "step up" aspect is nicely addressed in other posts, I think.

And this part is right on the money...

... to something that will better match my interests: ...

VERY clear list of interests!

First would be to play with the community band (12ish people), my personal interests include Dixieland, Ska, swing/Big Band. I'm looking at used with a budget of ~$1k or so.

NONE of those indicate a big honker. This is especially true if the other people in your bands are close to your level of playing.

Understanding I may not find the "One horn to rule them all" and I could wind up with a quiver full by the end... lol

Well, now that you've put this list out and had a chance to try a YSL-354 you might find that for YOUR can you CAN find "One horn to rule them all." A 12 piece community band will not thank you for bringing in a large bore horn. YOU would have to work HARDER on that to blend in most of the time and only stand out at those few featured measures we get in trimmed down arrangements. And you can really wear yourself thin pushing a big bore tenor through a Ska band (although some top players have done EXACTLY that.)

If you search here on the forum you will find reference to playing a YSL-354 with Airmen of Note. Does that mean that Doug Elliott played a studen horn, or does it mean he played something that worked the way he wanted for the job at hand?

I think this thread has switched from a blanket listing thing to a discussion of what you want to do and how to get there.

And with this as a new focus, I'm with Harrison: it would be hard to find a horn that could do more of what you want to do than a King 3B-F... IF it works for your face. If you are SURE you will never play the 3rd part in that band (even if they only have ONE trombone right now, things change ) then something like the YSL-354 might fit better.

I'm getting REALLY eager to hear what you come up with

[JKno]

You guys are great!

Yes boneagain, this thread has evolved for me for sure... I was ignorant to my depth of ignorance when I started! Research and others sharing their knowledge helps to cure that ignorance. I had no idea what was out there and with everyone's input, I've been able to narrow down my choices and have some direction.

I will be the second trombone in the community band but the current guy wants to play baritone. So as of now, I would only be playing 2nd chair, maybe first.

Ok.... I really liked the King I played in high school, so I'm a bit of a brand fanboi... I was leaning towards a 3BF (I definitely still want to play one)... but the ones I've seen online are a bit outside of my budget and there's nothing local. There is a Yamaha-YSL356R down in Denver with a rotor issue that I was going to check out this week, but suddenly, things changed...

Friday afternoon I was going through Craigslist and found a King 607 pretty local... I drive down to look it over; It needs a little work... two dents and a joint resolder. The slide is better than my Conn... I'm not excited about the protec bag it comes with as I think it is small for it. The rotor moves freely, the finish has wear, but no corrosion. It plays well for me... I really liked the sound I could get from it.

Lady got it for her granddaughter two years ago and hasn't been played in a year. She said I was to only one to contact her and it was listed 3 days prior. I didn't feel right about talking her down so I paid her full asking price...
Best $100 I've spent in a long time . She gave $120 at an estate sale and felt they got $20 of use out if it. I wasn't going to argue.

Goes to the shop tomorrow for estimates on repair.

[Matt K]

Excellent choice!