New to me, YBL 321

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Lamplighter
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Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:09 pm

New to me, YBL 321

Post by Lamplighter »

I just put down my "new" YBL 321. This is day 5 of practice, making the switch to bass trombone! I just recently discovered this forum and am really enjoying the discussions and the wealth of experience and information. I'm afraid I may be "taking" more than "giving" for a while.

Music of any kind has always been a love of mine. Was a pretty good trombonist in high school, but made the decision not to pursue it in college. I picked it up again in 2009, and played in an amateur (i.e. volunteer) big band. Still had long hours at the day job, but managed to practice enough to hold my own on 3rd trombone. Was still playing my Selmer Signet that I started on in 1965. We practiced and played intermittently, often for charity fundraising events, until the world stopped in 2010.

I have since retired and moved, and regretfully left the horn in the case, as I didn't have any prospect of playing. Did do some choral work to satisfy my musical needs. About 3 weeks ago I got a call from a friend who plays Bari sax in a local big band, informing me that they needed a trombone player. Turns out it was for the 4th spot rather than the 3rd he thought, but I decided to give it a shot. They are all volunteer, and mostly retired guys. Lots of white hair, so should fit in!

Immediately picked up the tenor to start and found a YBL 321 for sale. Started with a Bach 2G. Have worked up to 3 30 min sessions a day. I met with an instructor, and will have my first playing lesson in a week. Working on scales and long tones for now, although my wife is begging me to play something with a melody! Was able to consistently hit a pedal Bb and Ab today for the first time. Baby steps.

Band rehearsals start in a month. Wish me luck!
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BGuttman
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Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by BGuttman »

Good luck and welcome back!

There is nothing wrong with playing some lyrical stuff along with the scales and long tones. Get a book of melodic exercises or popular tunes to hack around. I got a Real Book (it's available in bass clef) and work through the songs I can recognize. That kind of practice may make the wife happier.

Depending on what the band plays you may have few notes below the staff or many. There are a lot of methods to learn the trigger notes. I used one called "F Attachment and Bass Trombone" by Allen Ostrander. There are newer ones, but I know that one. Teaches you how to find the notes in the F range. Remember, with the F trigger the slide only has 6 positions and the last one is nearly falling off the stocking. On the YBL 321 you don't have enough tuning slide to pull the attachment to E to play B below the staff.

Good luck with your lessons.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
btone
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Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by btone »

The Roberts/Tanner "Lets Play Bass Trombone" book is available somewhere on this forum as a pdf file. Check your email.
Lamplighter
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Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:09 pm

Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by Lamplighter »

btone wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:50 pm The Roberts/Tanner "Lets Play Bass Trombone" book is available somewhere on this forum as a pdf file. Check your email.
Thanks so much.
CalgaryTbone
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Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by CalgaryTbone »

Our Bass Trombonist here has a Yamaha 321 that he uses for lighter rep. sometimes. He loves it and sounds good on it (it's the red bell version). I told him that people had chimed in here stating that the horn did not have enough tubing (slide length plus length of the tuning slide pull on the valve) to play a low B. He pulled out his Yamaha and a tuner, made sure that his main slide was set at 440, and played down to some low B's with the F valve pulled out to E. He had room to play an in-tune B in a flat 7th position, and was actually a bit flat if he maxed out the distance with both the slide and valve tuning slide. I know he's used that horn on a few occasions in the orchestra where there was an isolated low B, and had no trouble playing an in-tune B natural with a full sound. I'm told that the newer version of the Yamaha with a 400 number can not do that, because of a different valve wrap.

To the OP, I would second the recommendation for the Ostrander book. I often suggest it to my younger students just switching to Bass, or trying to figure out the valve on Tenor. It's a nice start - not too difficult, but get's progressively more challenging as you go through it. I also like the Ostrander versions of the Bordogni Melodious Etudes - if those are tough for you now, try the Fink - Introducing Legato. The Fink isn't for Bass specifically, but it's just mid-range for either Tenor/Bass. The Bordogni/Ostrander is a bit tougher, and uses the valve register (but few pedal notes) extensively. There are lots of tougher books for later, but these will get you started, and will fit a single valve horn nicely.

Jim Scott
imsevimse
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Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by imsevimse »

CalgaryTbone wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:50 pm Our Bass Trombonist here has a Yamaha 321 that he uses for lighter rep. sometimes. He loves it and sounds good on it (it's the red bell version). I told him that people had chimed in here stating that the horn did not have enough tubing (slide length plus length of the tuning slide pull on the valve) to play a low B. He pulled out his Yamaha and a tuner, made sure that his main slide was set at 440, and played down to some low B's with the F valve pulled out to E. He had room to play an in-tune B in a flat 7th position, and was actually a bit flat if he maxed out the distance with both the slide and valve tuning slide. I know he's used that horn on a few occasions in the orchestra where there was an isolated low B, and had no trouble playing an in-tune B natural with a full sound. I'm told that the newer version of the Yamaha with a 400 number can not do that, because of a different valve wrap.
If a B is possible or not depends on what sound you aim for. If an open and clear sound is the goal then the slide is not long enough. Sure, it is possible to lip that low B in tune anyway at the end of the slide and force a B. I can do it too and it is not that difficult and it can probably be done at a loud nuance but the sound will lack colors and that is what all the fuzz is about. To convince your friend he is doing "lipping" to get it in tune you can ask him to play the b an octave above at the same spot where he gets the low B in tune. It should still be with the trigger pressed of course. Ask him to do the octave with his most open and sonorous sound with trigger pressed on both notes and then he might discover tuning issues because this is much more difficult, but both these B's should be att the same spot just like a low F in first position with trigger. That F on the trigger also has an octave f above at the same spot on the trigger. The F and the octave above on first position with trigger pressed should not be a problem to anybody.

"Lipping" = is a way of bending notes, usually down. On a trombone some notes can be bent an octave and others can be bent just a quarter tone. It is also possible to lip some notes up a bit on trombone but then the bends are very tiny so lipping in general is about lowering notes.

Should the knowledge "the slide is too short for a true B at the end of the slide" stop your friend from doing it? No, continue to do the "lipping" if it works, many players do that and get away with it just fine, but you should know your instrument, that's what its all about.


/Tom
atopper333
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Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by atopper333 »

I have a YBL-322 which is pretty close to the 321. It had the traditional closed wrap. Mine will do an E pull with some room to spare. Its the newer YBL-421 that has the newer ‘semi-closed’ wrap that I’ve heard can’t make the E pull….
CalgaryTbone
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Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by CalgaryTbone »

atopper333 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:34 pm I have a YBL-322 which is pretty close to the 321. It had the traditional closed wrap. Mine will do an E pull with some room to spare. Its the newer YBL-421 that has the newer ‘semi-closed’ wrap that I’ve heard can’t make the E pull….
Exactly what my friend's experience was! We're not talking about a student - he's a top professional who knows how to test matters like this, including making sure the sound is full and clear before checking the tuner.

I would absolutely trust his experience in this matter.

Jim Scott
imsevimse
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Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by imsevimse »

As I said he could do the experiment to play the note one octave higher and see for himself. I do own both a 321 and a 322 and I've also been playing professionally, but in this case beeing a professional or not it is not relevant because I'm talking about physics. The pull needs to be longer than E, it needs to be flat E on T1 for the B to be in reach or you need a longer main slide like is the case on the Conn 70h, 71h, 72h and 73h. You can search here at the forum to read more about this. Your friend may still be a professional, and as I said he may "lip" the B in tune without knowing it (or he knows it) and it might sound okay. Lip in tune is what you have to do. I've never said he can't play it but you seem to have read here about the problem and now I'm trying to explain to you what's it all about. The ones who don't want to know can keep ignoring my post.

/Tom
atopper333
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Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by atopper333 »

imsevimse wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:43 am As I said he could do the experiment to play the note one octave higher and see for himself. I do own both a 321 and a 322 and I've also been playing professionally, but in this case beeing a professional or not it is not relevant because I'm talking about physics. The pull needs to be longer than E, it needs to be flat E on T1 for the B to be in reach or you need a longer main slide like is the case on the Conn 70h, 71h, 72h and 73h. You can search here at the forum to read more about this. Your friend may still be a professional, and as I said he may "lip" the B in tune without knowing it (or he knows it) and it might sound okay. Lip in tune is what you have to do. I've never said he can't play it but you seem to have read here about the problem and now I'm trying to explain to you what's it all about. The ones who don't want to know can keep ignoring my post.

/Tom
Well, didn’t know what I was stepping into!

The B is unreachable for me…I can’t ‘lip’ it or lower my jaw, or anything else similar to that, I have T-Rex arms so coming to the end or near the end of the stockings throws my embouchure and I’m still working on technique…

Doable theoretically…yes…practically…no for me…but I am an amateur too.
Lamplighter
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Re: New to me, YBL 321

Post by Lamplighter »

I'm a long way from worrying about pulling a slide to hit that B!

I've had the horn and mouthpiece for 2 weeks, and had my first lesson yesterday. I wish I had done that 10 years ago when I picked up my tenor again. Picked up some bad habits that I'm working to correct. It's one thing to read that the bass requires more air than the tenor, but until you pick it up, it doesn't really register. It's like I'm learning to breathe all over again! I think the breathing exercises as part of the warm up really helped my practice session today.

I don't want to give up the tenor completely. Hopefully an opportunity will present itself in the future. Is it better to play on both horns daily or alternate days?
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