Boosey Euphonium Question…. Now with pictures!

[goldendomer04]

Hello Everyone,

I am looking into buying a doubling euphonium (bass trombone is my main instrument), so last time I walked into my local repair shop I asked if they had any euphoniums tucked away for sale.

I was floored when they brought out a gorgeous 1917 Boosey & Co. Solbron Class A euphonium.

*Sorry, picture to come soon…

I really have two main questions:

1) Should I be concerned buying an instrument this old? The condition seems pretty remarkable for the age of the euphonium.

2) This instrument would set me back around $2k…. Would I be better served with a more modern euphonium? (By more modern, I would be looking for a 60’s or 70’s Besson.)

Thanks for the input!

[goldendomer04]

I keep getting an HTTP error when trying to upload pictures….

[Matt K]

I keep getting an HTTP error when trying to upload pictures….

You'll probably get that for another half hour or so Id' guess. https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 43#p181743

I thought it would be done by now but I guess it's unsurprising given that I'm uploading it. Its about 8GB/22GB restoring the files.

[Vegasbound]

As long as it has been adjusted to low pitch and is mechanically sound you could use it but it’s 100 plus years old, 2k is a no no for me, I would rather buy an imperial or round stamp sovereign.

I know euph tastes on your side of the pond are a bit different

[Posaunus]

I keep getting an HTTP error when trying to upload pictures….

To save time and server storage space, I strongly recommend "re-sizing" photos to something smaller than ~1,000kB before uploading. They will load faster, and still provide plenty of detail for viewing on your screen (even a full-size computer monitor).

[Matt K]

I keep getting an HTTP error when trying to upload pictures….

To save time and server storage space, I strongly recommend "re-sizing" photos to something smaller than ~1,000kB before uploading. They will load faster, and still provide plenty of detail for viewing on your screen (even a full-size computer monitor).

That's good advice but in this case I'm almost certain that it won't work until everything is finished re-uploading. Looks like it's ~75% done.

[goldendomer04]

I keep getting an HTTP error when trying to upload pictures….

To save time and server storage space, I strongly recommend "re-sizing" photos to something smaller than ~1,000kB before uploading. They will load faster, and still provide plenty of detail for viewing on your screen (even a full-size computer monitor).

That is always a good idea!

I already compressed the photos, they are all under 1MB, but I’m still getting that error.

[goldendomer04]

Here are some photos:

4D950645-DDA4-4A2D-A174-9A65B1592A14.jpeg

B858938F-C1FE-454A-BFBD-4ACF4906C68B.jpeg

9A303359-6B45-4C65-88A6-8DD602B621E7.jpeg

[BGuttman]

It's certainly a pretty instrument (and compensating to boot!) but you may be better off with a King 2280 (or it's cousin the Conn 19I) which is a 4 valve in a row non-compensating which should set you back about half that. I use a 1 1/2G sized mouthpiece in my 19I and it works great for me.

Compensators have some characteristics you may find a bit odd coming from bass trombone. I found the non-comp to fit my concept a lot better. The valve combinations with 4 are similar to what you would do to slide positions with an F attachment.

[sctroy]

You should post your questions on Dave Werden's TubaEuph site. You'll get some really good recommendations there.

https://www.dwerden.com/forum/forum.php

That main tuning slide would not work for me the way I hold my euph.

Steve Troy

[modelerdc]

Considering the age and price, if it's a player you want, I think you would be better off to go to Mack brass or Wessex Brass and buy a new one. You'd get a new horn, that would take modern large shank mouthpieces, with better intonation, broader sound and no problems due to age.

[Finetales]

2) This instrument would set me back around $2k…. Would I be better served with a more modern euphonium? (By more modern, I would be looking for a 60’s or 70’s Besson.)

Yes. Get a Besson.

...

If you want a longer answer: this Boosey is certainly very cool, but I wouldn't recommend it for anyone but a collector. Soundwise, it'll sound like a euphonium should. But it's 105 years old, and unless it's had a recent valve job it likely has little compression left in the valves (if any). So, that $2k becomes a lot more than $2k to get it in good playable condition. There's also no telling what the intonation is like, and a more modern euphonium is challenging enough.

You could certainly get a Wessex or Mack Brass as suggested and be very happy. That's the safest option for sure, as they play well and have better intonation than a vintage Besson. Perfect for a doubling euph. Personally though, I would wait around for one of the many nice used Bessons out there for $2k or less. That singing sound they have is addicting to play. Don't bother with any non-compensating horns unless you don't have the scratch.

[blast]

I have one the same as this. Tuning is fine...better than some modern ones !! I've used it in the Opera and even on some recording work....however, I got it because it was cheap...very cheap, and it’s old and feels old. It will take a bass shank mouthpiece but if I were serious about euphonium I would buy a Besson or B&H from 1960-75....Best ever.

[Doug Elliott]

Beautiful horn, but the tuning slide extending below the bottom bow is very odd and would be a big problem.

Also I'm wondering why it doesn't look like that in both pictures.... ????
The perspective isn't that different and it appears to be pulled out the same in both pictures. Is one a high pitch slide and the other a low pitch slide?

[MrHCinDE]

Really cool horn but I’d second the view that you’d probably be better off waiting for a newer B&H/Besson, i.e a New Standard or B&H Imperial.

There’s a good argument to try a new Chinese horn from a brand with better QC such as Wessex if you value as-new (Chinese) mechanics over a vintage, singing tone.

I have a 60s B&H Imperial with slightly clanky valves but would no way swap it for a Wessex, maybe not even for a Besson Sovereign (which I have also previously owned). I prefer the sound of the Imperial to Yamaha also. The only new horn I’ve tried which could have tempted me away was a Willson, all round a very high quality instrument with a balanced sound. I’ve heard a few people sound great on Adams also. Obviously those instruments are in a different price class to the horn the OP mentioned.

[JohnL]

If you were buying the horn online, I'd have to agree with the general consensus that you either hold out for a newer instrument, BUT...

Since it IS local, my suggestion would be to see if the shop will let you take it on trial for a couple weeks and see what you think. If you've got a friend or two who is a serious euph player, get them to try it. Play it in an ensemble, spend some time with a tuner, - really give it a workout. (I suppose this should go without saying, but check the valves - there's a lot of vintage instruments that are beautiful on the outside and look like ten miles of bad road on the inside).

If everything checks out, go for it.

[Richard3rd]

I missed it if anyone asked where and in what situation would you be playing a euphonium.

I play a King 2280 along side compensating euphs. I regularly get people coming over from other sections telling me how nice it sounds. I'm not a fan of compensating euphs. To me they sound lacking in resonance. But that's a personal sound concept that is not shared by many.

[greenbean]

If you can get the price of this one down, I would only consider it after spending a week with it on trial - to confirm that you can get a good sound and play in tune. It does look like a HP instrument with a long tuning slide.

I have played several comp horns - older Besson/B&H and newer Chinese horns - and the King and Yamaha non-comps. I think any of these will work fine.

... I would buy a Besson or B&H from 1960-75....Best ever.

Blast hit the nail on the head above! This would also be my top choice.

[Ozzlefinch]

I have a little different point of view that others who have shared their opinions. I say buy it my dude.. If it catches your eye, and you can afford it, then just buy it. Take it home, clean it up, and stick it to your face and start blowing notes through it. Then you can decide for yourself if you are "feeling it" and it meets the needs of the music you intend to play. AND you can also buy a more modern horn if you want to. It doesn't have to be an either/or decision.

Listen, I played slide trombone for 35 -ish years and except for bass in high school, I never even considered anything with a valve on it. Then a few years ago I was on a business trip to Germany and stopped in a second-hand music shop. I saw a 4-valve 'bone on the wall and it caught my attention. Short story long, I bought it and now I have a growing collection of 100+ year old 4-valve horns. No, I don't play them all the time for every situation (I still have my slide bones), but I do play them often. I love them, they "speak" to me, I enjoy it, and it motivates me to practice. For me it's money and time well spent.

Now the question of money comes up. Is 2K a lot for a horn? I don't know. 2k is different for different people. It's a lot for those that are struggling to save $200 for a used Bundy, but not a lot for those who spend 5-10K on a horn regularly. Only you can make a determination if the cost/value equation is right for you. Horns that old are only worth whatever they sell for. Unless it's a storied instrument with a known pedigree, then any perceived worth is between the seller and buyer.

Yes, a 100+ year old horn is a different animal than a new one. It might need repair, it may or may not have worn valves (age is no determination of how much it was actually used). You need to be prepared to spend a little to get it up and working if needs be. Only you can decide if you want to go that route. All of my 4-valves need a visit to the tech, but none of them cost more than $500 to get playable again. To me, it was worth it.

The final decision is yours, but if I saw something like that at the local shop, then I guarantee it will be coming home with me that day.

[greenbean]

Why willingly over-pay for a horn that likely under-plays? The seller wants more than double what it is worth.

And, these days, a $2000 budget will get you a great horn.

[goldendomer04]

Beautiful horn, but the tuning slide extending below the bottom bow is very odd and would be a big problem.

Also I'm wondering why it doesn't look like that in both pictures.... ????
The perspective isn't that different and it appears to be pulled out the same in both pictures. Is one a high pitch slide and the other a low pitch slide?

Great question Doug!

Here are the other pictures I took at the shop:

F3DC47F9-BB49-451E-9A7E-9550A9311C0D.jpeg

9F36AB53-F8CF-4A54-A3A5-FE3F062CC847.jpeg

2A238597-4750-45B1-8527-C639A4C91666.jpeg

D9A50996-BF0A-44C0-BD1B-36581AE06288.jpeg

C383018D-2648-4745-83FA-725995DACEE5.jpeg

B94BEA87-BAF3-4688-8D04-5B4882E82D6F.jpeg

[goldendomer04]

Some more info I received from the shop:

This horn belonged to a music professor at a local university who played euphonium with the “President’s Own” band while he was still in the military.

He passed away in the 90’s. His family sold the horn to the shop and it has been sitting on the shelf since.

The shop would be willing to let me try it out for a few days, but neither me nor the shop have a euro shank mouthpiece right now.

[Doug Elliott]

So at least you know it wasn't abused. It's still extremely overpriced.
And I still wonder if it has two tuning slides, high pitch and low pitch. That wouldn't be too unusual for American instruments but I'm not sure about a British one.

I can send you a medium shank if you want to try it.

[Finetales]

Here's your answer. '70s B&H Imperial in nice shape with 2 mouthpieces for $1,700 shipped.

Would buy it myself if I didn't already have a Sterling!

[goldendomer04]

Here's your answer. '70s B&H Imperial in nice shape with 2 mouthpieces for $1,700 shipped.

Would buy it myself if I didn't already have a Sterling!

Thanks for the heads up, but I was too slow….

[Finetales]

Thanks for the heads up, but I was too slow….

Don't worry! Deals like that for vintage Bessons/B&Hs aren't uncommon. There will be another one around soon enough.

[MrHCinDE]

Talking of vintage-ish euphonium deals, If I was in the UK, I'd be tempted by this:
https://www.prozonemusic.com/product/33 ... lver-plate

(I have no connection to the seller, other than being a happy customer in the past)

[robcat2075]

1917? Is it a modern pitch instrument? You don't want to mess with one that isn't.

[blast]

1917? Is it a modern pitch instrument? You don't want to mess with one that isn't.

It will be high pitch originally. They were pretty much all converted to 440. They survived that pretty well....as I say, mine is good enough to use on professional recordings though a more modern instrument would be nicer.

[Molefsky]

Were all the older horns HP by default? I purchased a York from the early 20th century a while back and it had slide settings for both HP and LP.

[OneTon]

According to Robb Stewart at robbstewart.com, pitch varied from (A =) 435 hz to 457 hz until 440 hz was adopted at the close of WWII with the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. And many European countries did not adopt the 440 hz
standard until 1960. Low pitch was adopted by Patrick Gilmore and and John Philip Sousa in the 1880s. This was A = 435 hz. Pushing the tuning slide all the way in may not reward the player with A = 440 hz.

High pitch could be 452 hz or 457 hz. The safe answer is that pitch varies drastically until 1919 and did become consistent until the 21st Century.

[sungfw]

According to Robb Stewart at robbstewart.com, pitch varied from (A =) 435 hz to 457 hz until 440 hz was adopted at the close of [strikethrough]WWII[/strikethrough] WWI with the Treaty of Versailles in 1919.

FTFY.

[imsevimse]

I have one too and bought it converted to A=440 and fully restored including shipping from England for $530. It is much easier to play this horn intune compared to the 3 valve Besson 700-series euph that I played before. This one is good enough for its purpose. As a bonus this euphonium has an added inscription dedicated to some bandsman and also the text "In God we trust" in nice engraving on the bell. I hope that helps when I play the horn.

/Tom

[Finetales]

Old high-pitch tubas often come to life when cut DOWN to the next logical key in A=440, rather than lengthened. HP Eb to modern F, HP Bb to modern C, etc. Might be blasphemy, but I've always wanted to do the same thing to an old high pitch compensating euph and see how it does as a modern pitch euphonium in C.