New trombone made by Lars Gerdt

[imsevimse]

The prototype we had on test on this gig 2022-04-03 was already very good. Bell is 8" and slide is .500 with TIS.The three of us in the Johan Stengård Jazz Big Band have had the horn on loan and Lars wanted our comments. All of the ergonomics has now been fixed. Interesting project.

/Tom

[Tbarh]

I know that he has Made a symphonic tenor also.. Is he branching out to trombone?.. Bass trombone Next?

[imsevimse]

He has made one bass trombone that I know of. It was a inline model with regular rotors and it was bought by one of my friends, a professional player. He is very pleased with that buy. All Gerdt trombones are TIS. I tried five of his symphonic models a couple of years ago. They were all prototypes and had different valves. I liked the one with regular rotor, but have little use for such a horn and it was not that "wow" moment I need to be real interested in a horn but of course I should have had my own mouthpiece and spent more time with it to know better. At that time I could not justify to spend the money but this small bore .500 is different, it is a success. I think it plays a lot bigger than expected, it is a very nice horn.

/Tom

[Finetales]

The Lars Gerdt instrument I want the most is the contrabass trumpet. I would love to have the scratch for that!

[imsevimse]

I just came back from visiting Lars Gerdt shop where I tested for two hours and then brought back the parts I can choose from to build my horn. The slide has been shortend according to my suggestions to make it possible to tune higher. I think this will be the first trombone that I can truly play both A=440 and A=442 without changing too much were my positions are. Now I will practice on the two slides and four bells a couple of days.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

I have ordered one straight trombone and one with attachment in G/Gb, plus an extra tuning slide for the attachment that puts the attachment in F. I think that will be a rather special horn. I will get the horn in August. Excited! Any questions

/Tom

[baileyman]

He could rotate those counterweights about the tubes to the right (medial) side and achieve some measure of left/right rotational balance.

[imsevimse]

He could rotate those counterweights about the tubes to the right (medial) side and achieve some measure of left/right rotational balance.

Actually, balance is good the way it is. I don't think the bell I ordered with G-attachment will need a balance weight.

/Tom

[Tbarh]

Would love to see a picture of the bass..

[imsevimse]

Would love to see a picture of the bass..

Maybe

I know the owner and will ask him if I can take a picture of his trombone. That horn sounds very good. We played in a church gig with brass quartet and church organ a couple of weeks ago and then he used that bass. He is a professional player. It is the only Gerdt bass trombone made so far.

/Tom

[Tbarh]

Would love to see a picture of the bass..

Maybe

I know the owner and will ask him if I can take a picture of his trombone. That horn sounds very good. We played in a church gig with brass quartet and church organ a couple of weeks ago and then he used that bass. He is a professional player. It is the only Gerdt bass trombone made so far.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

20221228_212933.jpg

Pictures of my Gerdt mod 216 tenor trombone with valve. It has three interchangable crooks to tune valve in G, Gb or F.
This picture shows the horn with the G-valve crook installed.

[imsevimse]

Gb-valve crook installed

[imsevimse]

F-valve crook installed

[imsevimse]

The bell with no valve

[Tbarh]

Wow…looks great ! Are all of his Horns all yellow brass?..About the bass? Do You have a picture

[harrisonreed]

The bell taper looks different from what I'm used to seeing. Is it a wider throat?

[imsevimse]

Wow…looks great ! Are all of his Horns all yellow brass?..About the bass? Do You have a picture

No, but I will meet with the owner in January, we have a gig. I hope he brings the horn, then I will take photos.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

The bell taper looks different from what I'm used to seeing. Is it a wider throat?

I compared it visually to my Yamaha 891Z and can not see any significant difference in the throat but this is a TIS horn so it is different. The positions/intonation is little different compared to the TIB horns I'm used to. The bell and the slide are also more heavy. I might order a faster/lighter slide. One of my friends ordered a lightweight slide with his horn. I will try that slide with my horn when we meet in January.

The horn changed a lot when it was lacquered, something I hadn't expected, think it was for the better but it got a little darker sound and is now a horn with a bit more resistance compared to let say the not so heavy Yamaha 891Z.

I think the sound and the trombone gravitates towards classical use and therefore I plan to use the horn with valve in settings where I normally choose the Bach 36BO.

The straight horn is what I use in the Johan Stengård Big Band for 2:nd part. Both first, second and third will use a Gerdt trombone. I've tried the horn on first too but to me the sound then gets "too dark". It might have been because the second and third then did not play Gerd-trombones. Anyhow I need to play very loud to get the desired colours that I sometimes want for first, but that's me. The first trombone player in JSBB now gets a much smoother and fuller sound and he still get those sparkles, but when I use my horn for first it is a bit on the dark side, at least that's what I hear behind the bell.

Our horns blend very well in the section and the whole band have noticed the different sound in the trombone section. They say it sounds great and we just have to believe that, because we think it is an improvement too. We (1st and 2:nd) have experimented with different Conn models before such as the "Vocabel", Conn 4h and Conn 6h/100h and then we noticed in recordings we just drowned the trumpet section. Now when we use these Gerdt horns we play more delicate and the section sound is warmer

/Tom

[imsevimse]

Are all of his Horns all yellow brass?

Yes, I think so. Haven't seen anything else there like silver or copper.

/Tom

[sf105]

If you don't mind saying, how much are they? No prices on the website.

[imsevimse]

If you don't mind saying, how much are they? No prices on the website.

I think this will vary with his expansives as he will build on request. He said he planned to build nine small bores (.500) to begin with and since he has now sold four he might still have five left to the same price. The straight horn was 29900 SKR which is about $2866 and the special order of a bell with valve and the three different tuning crooks was another 17500 SKR = $1677.
It comes with two leadpipes one King leadpipe and one of his own design.

To sum: Two bells, one TIS slide, two leadpipes and three different special build crooks for the special valve I asked him to build was $4543. I also had my special requests in the process I asked him to shorten the slide since I need to be able to play A=442 sometimes. I also asked him to extend the F-slide with approximately 4 cm to put the low F exactly at the bumper because it was a bit sharp when I first got it. To me it is no point to have a sharp low F on the first with trigger, better to be able to pull 2 cm to put C right at the bumper and have a low C on trigger 6 within reach, of course the design with three valve crooks does not allow an E-pull on the horn, but I don't think I need that on this .500.

He has since I ordered my horn also built two more basses, both with thayers, one of them with screwbell. Our bass trombone player in the Johan Stengård Big Band used one on one of our last gigs at the Olympia Theatre in early november and sounded awesome on it. I tried it but had troubles with the ergonomics, but it may be because I have had surgery in my left hand. The hand isn't as strong as it was so I have a problem to hold those monsters.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

The goal with the G-crook was to have an intune G on first and an intune D on trigger 6 and that is the case. The goal with Gb-crook was an intune Gb on first and a Db at the very tip of the slide with trigger and that also works. The goal with the F-slide was to be able to pull enough to have an useful C on the far end with trigger with the crook pulled as far as possible and that also works. I'm pleased with this flexible design. At the moment I'm playing a lot just with the G-slide to investigate all the new possibilities.

An Idea I had was that a G-crook should be enough to still have the register of a horn with a regular F-valve and that is because the factitious notes becomes easier the further out they are on the slide so the Db on sixth and C on seventh are much easier than the Eb and D on fourth and fifth who can be more shaky. When I play down an octave chromatically from Bb with the G-valve the positions are:
Bb(1), A (2), Ab (3), G (V1), Gb (V2), F (V3), E (V4),
Eb (V5), D (V6), Dd (fake 6), C (fake 7), B (fake V5),
Bb (1) and this mean I only need to use the three easiest fake notes if I need to cover a register down to the pedals.
The gain is I have more alternatives within the staff with a G-valve compared to an F-valve. I only need four positions to cover most of what's in the staff. With the Gb-valve I also can do almost everything with the help of the first four positions. With the F-valve we need also the 5:th position. That was the second idea behind this. The third idea was the G and Gb-vales admits a few new possibilities for glissandos such as for example between D and G or Db and Gb using the positions V6-V1.

/Tom

[Digidog]

That Gerdt horn looks great! I hope it will produce a lot of nice playing over the years to come.

What valve is it on the attachments?

[imsevimse]

I have to ask I just asked him from where he got the material for the parts and then he answerd the valve was from Germany and brass parts % tubes was from USA. The real reason for the question was I wanted to know if there are Chinese parts involved. He said he could guarantee there are no Chinese brass parts involved.

/Tom

[HermanGerman]

The real reason for the question was I wanted to know if there are Chinese parts involved. He said he could guarantee there are no Chinese brass parts involved.

/Tom

Yes, but US parts.... so what?

[imsevimse]

The real reason for the question was I wanted to know if there are Chinese parts involved. He said he could guarantee there are no Chinese brass parts involved.

/Tom

Yes, but US parts.... so what?

That's what I asked too, but he said it had a certificate that guarantee its US brass.

[Sesquitone]

Hello, Tom. Welcome to the (single-trigger, tenor-trombone) minor-third-attachment club! [And the major-third.] There are many Bb/G advocates. Perhaps less Bb/Gb (single-trigger) professional players. One of the best known was Allen Kofsky, who routinely played a Benge 190 Bb/Gb (with dual-bore slide) in the Cleveland Orchestra for many years.

People often ask about the advantages of the m3 (or M3) attachment compared with the ubiquitous P4 attachment. First, we're talking about attachment alternates in the tenor range--without regard to extending the low range down towards pedals. Secondly, the attachment alternates should (ideally) have the same tone quality and attack response as their slide-alone counterparts of the same sound-path length. This can be achieved by using an excellent modern valve and eliminating any unnecessary discontinuities along the sound-path, especially in the transition region from the slide, through the valve and attachment, into the gooseneck.

The Bb/F instrument has four such attachment alternates: attachment second-harmonic F2 and E2 and third-harmonic C3 and B2 in attachment 1st and 2nd positions, respectively, rather than slide-alone 6th and 7th. Other third-harmonic attachment alternates are useful, but they have longer sound-path lengths (and different tone quality).

On the Bb/Gb tenor, the first three attachment positions on harmonics 2, 3, and 4 match slide alone notes in 5th, 6th, and 7th positions--giving nine alternates of this type (with four more with longer sound-paths on harmonics 3 and 4).

On the Bb/G tenor, harmonics 2, 3, 4, and 5 are available--each providing four attachment alternates with the same respective sound-path lengths as in slide-alone 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th positions--i.e. sixteen in total (plus six more with longer sound-paths). These alternates are very easy to learn because the attachment harmonics interleave between the Bb slide-alone harmonics in a very uniform way--closely mimicking the way the Bb odd harmonics (5, 7, and 9) interleave between the even harmonics (4, 6, 8, and 10) in the facile upper register. A Gm7 arpeggio over two-and-a-half octaves is available with the slide in its shortest positions. Arpeggios of other chord types are available within three adjacent positions throughout the entire (tenor) range. Scalar passages in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor register closely mimic positions in the upper Bb register. Overall, this leads to very "comfortable" slide technique.

The minor-third tuning can be used for Eb/C alto, C/A tenor (a great "lead" instrument, paralleling the orchestral C trumpet). Also Bb/G-E-D dual in-line-valve continuously chromatic tenor or bass. Another workable tuning is: Bb/G-Eb-Db. These can be transposed down to basses: G/E-C#-B or G/E-C-Bb. The latter is the same relative tuning as the Thein "European" contrabass: F/D-Bb-Ab.

[imsevimse]

Hello, Tom. Welcome to the (single-trigger, tenor-trombone) minor-third-attachment club! [And the major-third.] There are many Bb/G advocates. Perhaps less Bb/Gb (single-trigger) professional players. One of the best known was Allen Kofsky, who routinely played a Benge 190 Bb/Gb (with dual-bore slide) in the Cleveland Orchestra for many years.

People often ask about the advantages of the m3 (or M3) attachment compared with the ubiquitous P4 attachment. First, we're talking about attachment alternates in the tenor range--without regard to extending the low range down towards pedals. Secondly, the attachment alternates should (ideally) have the same tone quality and attack response as their slide-alone counterparts of the same sound-path length. This can be achieved by using an excellent modern valve and eliminating any unnecessary discontinuities along the sound-path, especially in the transition region from the slide, through the valve and attachment, into the gooseneck.

The Bb/F instrument has four such attachment alternates: attachment second-harmonic F2 and E2 and third-harmonic C3 and B2 in attachment 1st and 2nd positions, respectively, rather than slide-alone 6th and 7th. Other third-harmonic attachment alternates are useful, but they have longer sound-path lengths (and different tone quality).

On the Bb/Gb tenor, the first three attachment positions on harmonics 2, 3, and 4 match slide alone notes in 5th, 6th, and 7th positions--giving nine alternates of this type (with four more with longer sound-paths on harmonics 3 and 4).

On the Bb/G tenor, harmonics 2, 3, 4, and 5 are available--each providing four attachment alternates with the same respective sound-path lengths as in slide-alone 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th positions--i.e. sixteen in total (plus six more with longer sound-paths). These alternates are very easy to learn because the attachment harmonics interleave between the Bb slide-alone harmonics in a very uniform way--closely mimicking the way the Bb odd harmonics (5, 7, and 9) interleave between the even harmonics (4, 6, 8, and 10) in the facile upper register. A Gm7 arpeggio over two-and-a-half octaves is available with the slide in its shortest positions. Arpeggios of other chord types are available within three adjacent positions throughout the entire (tenor) range. Scalar passages in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor register closely mimic positions in the upper Bb register. Overall, this leads to very "comfortable" slide technique.

The minor-third tuning can be used for Eb/C alto, C/A tenor (a great "lead" instrument, paralleling the orchestral C trumpet). Also Bb/G-E-D dual in-line-valve continuously chromatic tenor or bass. Another workable tuning is: Bb/G-Eb-Db. These can be transposed down to basses: G/E-C#-B or G/E-C-Bb. The latter is the same relative tuning as the Thein "European" contrabass: F/D-Bb-Ab.

Thanks for this info.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

Wow…looks great ! Are all of his Horns all yellow brass?..About the bass? Do You have a picture

It seems most interest on this site is in bass trombones.
Here is the pictures of the first made Gerdt Bass trombone. Since this trombone was made he has also made two with Thayers. One of them has a screw bell. Personally I favour the one with scew bell, but both were too heavy for me to hold. I have not played this one, but it sounds real good when Sven plays it.

[Tbarh]

Looks great ! I love the fact that he exclusively uses TIS

[imsevimse]

Hello

An update. I just ordered a Noah Gladstone 32h Burkle .500 non threaded leadpipe from BrassArks. It did cost me a lot because the SKR is now very low against the dollar, but this leadpipe is such a good match that I need that leadpipe here real fast

Got an answer immeadeately after I ordered that says it will take four months to complete this. Okay, I hope not, but in case it does I just have to be patient and do the best I can with the original leadpipe until early summer.

When I ordered at their page I had to fill in a form with a few details and one of them was what horn I play. I think they want to be sure I know what I'm doing?

In this case I told them i will use the leadpipe with my "Lars Gerdt .500 tenor trombone". I guess they havent heard of that horn, unless they happen to have read this thread In this case I do know what I'm doing and that it will fit because I have one of those .500 leadpipes before. I use that one with my Kanstul 1606. Difference is the Gerdt wants a leadpipe that is press fit, so it can't be the one with threaded collars.

I was really surprised what that leadpipe did to the horn, even though my Conn 32h Burkle .500 leadpipe has threads and can not be pushed all the way in I could still feel how much it improved the horn. With this leadpipe the sound becomes a lot warmer, get more core and more sparkling overtones. The sound becomes less dark, which is exactly what I want, plus it slots better.

I highly recommend the Conn 32h "Burkle" leadpipe as an improvement. It seems to be a good match to any horn.
I do have a second one that fits into my .508 Yamaha 891Z, that's my main horn. The .508 leadpipe was a special order.

All the leadpipes I have bought have been in pure cupper, this third one will be too.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

I had a gig this sunday, the first gig with my .500 bore
Gerdt mod 216 Bb/G tenor. It wasn't one of those regular church gigs. This is a special big ceremonial event that take place twice a year, when new priests are welcomed. It is the final of their examination and it takes place in the big cathedral of Strängnäs. This time the cathedral was crowded with hundreds of attendees and the Swedish prime minister was there.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

Lars Gerdt just messaged me to tell my NEW light weight slide just came back from the laquer job. This means I will have two complete .500 Lars Gerdt tenor trombones now, one with valve and one straight. If I ever sell these horns I think it will be easier to sell if I have two complete trombones rather than one slide and two bells, but the main reason wasn't really that, nor that I wanted the slide to be faster, but the change in sound that I noticed to came with the lighter slide. I think also nickel silver makes that difference. I'm impatient to get it but have to wait until thursday to collect the slide when I have a job relatated errand to get there anyhow. I will post a few pictures.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

Some pictures from home of my two MOD 216 Gerdt trombones. The straight horn has a Nils Langren signature mouthpiece and the 216 Bb/G tenor has my new Marshall Gilkes signature mouthpiece that I ordered from Dillons.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

Here some picures from the Lars Gerd shop with some ongoing projects.

Yesterday two tubists were practicing a solo in octaves when I was there. Made me happy to see there is a lot of interest in his instruments.

One if the bass trombones had been sent to germany for a test. Here is another bass with Thayers.

On the last picture there are a few straight Gerdt Mod 216 500 tenors and also one Mod. 227 large bore tenor with f-att.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

The Gerdt trombone section

[elmsandr]

I like to think that your counterweights are telling the audience what part you are playing.

49472407-2E8D-4ACE-ABC7-120B115233C0.jpeg

Cheers,
Andy

[imsevimse]

Yes, you are spot on and if we switch parts we have to switch trombone too or we just move the counter weights.

/Tom

[elmsandr]

But seriously, is the balance of the different horns that different, or is it the preferences of the players that is different to choose the different arrangement?

(Imagining the looks I would get from the bandleader while passing counterweights up and down the section in the middle of a set)

Cheers,
Andy

[imsevimse]

But seriously, is the balance of the different horns that different, or is it the preferences of the players that is different to choose the different arrangement?

(Imagining the looks I would get from the bandleader while passing counterweights up and down the section in the middle of a set)

Cheers,
Andy

Yes, preference of players.
It's my friend's who wanted them moved. The horn is well balanced with two counterweights and a little nose heavy with just one but the first player did not mind that and liked the symmetry of only one balance weight. The third player did not want a noseheavy horn but wanted the balance weights to be symmetrical.
Acctually I just accepted the balance weights to be located where they originally were placed, just the same as the prototype we had on loan. We have tried each other bells and its not much difference, if a symmetric placement is better or not isn't obvious to any of us.

/Tom

[imsevimse]

A bit of data concerning the first five mod. 216 small bore tenors.

The first five small bore tenors model 216 were made about the same time and is numbered 1-5. The prototype has serial number 1 and is owned by one of my friends. I bought the ones with serial number 3 and 5. Number 1,2,4 and 5 are straight trombones and number 3 was altered to have a valve with crooks (G-att, Gb-att or F-att). No 3 also has a light weight nickel silver slide. The number 1, 2, 4 and 5 were made in august 2022. The bell of number 3 was altered/completed in December 2022 and the light weight slide in Februari 2023. All slides and bells have matching serial numbers. After the first five were made Lars have made four additional bells. He said he would do nine small bores to begin with. The small bores aren't on his webpage yet.

This is a link to the Lars Gerd AB shop/webpage
http://www.gerdt.se/

/Tom

[HermanGerman]

IMO a dead end design.. I keep my balls where nature placed them..

[imsevimse]

Today, I had a gig at a church in Stockholm where I played my Gerdt mod. 216 Bb/G tenor trombone next to the first ever made Gerdt bass trombone so I took the opportunity after the gig to ask if I could test it. It plays real good and was much easier to hold compared to the other later basses I've tried. It has a warm sonourus sound and is absolutely most subtle for classical rep. I played one of the slow movements from the Bach Cello suites. I definitely want one after this, but the price tag is high and I certainly have enough basses. I found it easier to blow this horn compared to the others with Thayers that Lars have made This one has Hagmann valves but still very open, and well balanced. It still gives me the resistens I need for the lower trigger notes. I could ask Lars to make me one. It will probably result in a new best bass in my collection but also the most expensive bass. I need to think hard on this one. I will never have enough gigs on that bass to justify that buy economically, but.. .. it's so fun to play and own horns.

[MrHCinDE]

IMO a dead end design.. I keep my balls where nature placed them..

Not sure of the significance of where your balls are kept to trombone design?

[MrHCinDE]

Going to correct myself here, having allowed enough time for all pictures in the thread to load this time, I can see where HermanGerman could be coming from.

[imsevimse]

Going to correct myself here, having allowed enough time for all pictures in the thread to load this time, I can see where HermanGerman could be coming from.

He is just trying to be funny. I don't care

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

It looks cool, and I bet they sound great. TIS is always fun, but heavy. The counterweights ... are kind of silly looking.

It's too bad that you had to replace the leadpipe -- the guy's shop is small enough that you should be able to let him know what type of pipe works better. Maybe be her can do a similar pipe going forward.

[MTbassbone]

Any contact info for Mr. Gerdt. The Gb paddle from his bass trombones looks comfortable. Edwards got rid of the "bassoon" key paddle and this looks similar to their old paddle.

[imsevimse]

It looks cool, and I bet they sound great. TIS is always fun, but heavy. The counterweights ... are kind of silly looking.

It's too bad that you had to replace the leadpipe -- the guy's shop is small enough that you should be able to let him know what type of pipe works better. Maybe be her can do a similar pipe going forward.

Well, I haven't received the 32H leadpipe I ordered from BrassArk yet, but I've been told it will be made soon as possible.

The two leadpipes that came with the horn are both good but very different. One of them is a "King" leadpipe. That one is longer and makes a very focused sound. Easy to blow through the partials, it slots very good. I would choose that if I needed that. The other is shorter and is from his own design. That pipe allows me to expand and broaden the sound more. It gives more complex and interesting mix of sound and plays very open. That leadpipe is what I'm using now.

I have one BrassArk .500 32H cupper leadpipe before. It is between these two. I use it with my Kanstul 1606 "WIlliams" clone but that pipe is threaded and therefore does not go all the way in the Gerd tenor.

If I had not known about the BrassArk Conn 32H cupper leadpipe I would have been perfectly satisfied with what I've got. Now when I know I could not resist to order one. Hope I get it soon. I will tell when I get it and will describe the differences.

Any contact info for Mr. Gerdt. The Gb paddle from his bass trombones looks comfortable. Edwards got rid of the "bassoon" key paddle and this looks similar to their old paddle.

This is a link to his webbpage http://www.gerdt.se/

/Tom