Lightweight Jazz Horns

bobroden · Post by **bobroden** » Sat May 21, 2022 11:27 am

I have apparently reached the point in life at which the weight of a horn is a primary consideration; i.e., I need to keep it as light as possible to avoid physical problems.

So I thought I’d ask for recommendations about .500 or smaller jazz horns (pretty much all I play) that are on the light side. Such a list might be useful for lots of players as they get a little older, especially if thoughts, experiences and recommendations are included with the horns listed.

I’ll start with the ones I’m aware of, and will look forward to others’ contributions to come. Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Kanstul 1602-B

XO-1632 Fedchock

Bach 6, 8, 10 or 12 with lightweight slide

Butler Lemon Drop

Jiggs 2B

Trevorspaulding376 · Post by **Trevorspaulding376** » Sat May 21, 2022 12:05 pm

The old Martin Urbie greens were light and very good horns

Jiggs 2b as you mentioned is pretty light

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Sat May 21, 2022 12:45 pm

Yep the Urbie, very light and good

sacfxdx · Post by **sacfxdx** » Sat May 21, 2022 12:53 pm

My Lawler Model 1 feels pretty light. It’s the standard recommended configuration. You could probably create a pretty light Lawler horn with his lighter gauge materials. I play bass mostly so almost any tenor feels light.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Sat May 21, 2022 2:08 pm

Minick .500“ is lightest I‘ve tried

CharlieB · Post by **CharlieB** » Sat May 21, 2022 2:36 pm

Ergobone ?

Jimkinkella · Post by **Jimkinkella** » Sat May 21, 2022 2:46 pm

Schmelzers are pretty darn light.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat May 21, 2022 4:19 pm

Shires Michael Davis

smcgonigal · Post by **smcgonigal** » Sat May 21, 2022 5:06 pm

Besson 940

jorymil · Post by **jorymil** » Sat May 21, 2022 5:52 pm

Holton 65

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Sat May 21, 2022 5:53 pm

The lightest horns I have are 2B's, small Bachs with LT slides, and a Conn 6H. One could always remove oversleeves to make a slide lighter - like the 6H.

Pezza · Post by **Pezza** » Sat May 21, 2022 5:59 pm

I love my Bach 12 when I don't want the weight of my Bach 36K.

Reedman1 · Post by **Reedman1** » Sat May 21, 2022 11:23 pm

You can’t beat a Butler for lightness. I like mine, though I find the left hand grip uncomfortable. My shoulder loves it!

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Sun May 22, 2022 12:28 am

My Conn 100h feels extremely light compared to my 6hs. After adding another leadpipe it's a great sounding and responsive little trombone now.

OneTon · Post by **OneTon** » Sun May 22, 2022 3:38 am

Yamaha YSL-697Z and YSL-897Z play virtually like King 2B and seem lighter to me. The addition of a carbon fiber outer slide would make it even lighter.

I got to where I could get the Vegas or LA big band sound out of a Yamaha YSL 653 but it took a while to get there. I think that it is a little bit lighter than a Conn 6H.

I play a King 2B most of the time now. At the last shoulder sensitivity event it was hurting more than the YSL-697. The nickel outer slide is damage resistant but it does have outer doubling sleeves at the hand grip. An older one might be a candidate for a carbon outer slide from Butler. They may have thicker bells and beads than the newer ones, which might help give a richer sound. Either counter weight is acceptable and not an indication of bell thickness. The horn might balance with a counter weight removed and light weight slide.

There are some cheap Conn 4H trombones out there, too.

I have an ergo bone support that I have used with a Duo-Gravis. It solves the weight issue. I have never gotten used to it. I must move my chin up and down more than I think. I have never tried it without the stick.

Fidbone · Post by **Fidbone** » Sun May 22, 2022 3:47 am

I've been down the same road. Ended up buying an XO 1632 "Fedchock".
It's very light and really easy to play however I tend to overfill it on gig situations and it doesn't give me the power/timbre of sound I want.
Ultimately I've come to the conclusion that it's more to do with the balance of the horn rather than the weight with small bore horns.

EriKon · Post by **EriKon** » Sun May 22, 2022 6:19 am

Lawler horns are the lightest that I've ever hold so far

OneTon · Post by **OneTon** » Sun May 22, 2022 8:21 am

EKTrombone wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 6:19 am Lawler horns are the lightest that I've ever hold so far

Have you held the van Lier with nickel slide and 180 mm bell?

HermanGerman · Post by **HermanGerman** » Sun May 22, 2022 10:13 am

Better to try the Neotech with YOUR horn before buying a trombone which is just light

tjonz · Post by **tjonz** » Sun May 22, 2022 10:59 am

Reedman1 writes:

> You can’t beat a Butler for lightness.

Yup. My Rath R2 weighs three pounds. Holding it up for extended periods caused chronic tendinitis in my left elbow. My Butler JJ weighs a pound and a half. After playing it exclusively for only a couple of weeks the tendinitis went away.

bobroden · Post by **bobroden** » Sun May 22, 2022 2:33 pm

Is there a typical way a horn's sound and feel are affected when you replace the original slide's outer with a carbon fiber one?

Trevorspaulding376 · Post by **Trevorspaulding376** » Sun May 22, 2022 4:30 pm

Some say they don’t like the sound of the carbon fiber outers , I think it’s more of a feedback from the player behind the horn type of deal but it’s very much a personal thing , definitely lighter but I know a few far better players than I that did feel there was a sound trade off ,

Others love them , I think it’s just different , not better or worse but try to see if you can find someone who has one to try before committing

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Sun May 22, 2022 4:52 pm

Schmelzer model 1 is .500, very lightweight, very well balanced, easy to hold with a Williams-style grip, and plays great.

Monkhouse · Post by **Monkhouse** » Mon May 23, 2022 9:57 am

greenbean wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 5:53 pm The lightest horns I have are 2B's, small Bachs with LT slides, and a Conn 6H. One could always remove oversleeves to make a slide lighter - like the 6H.

I have a 2b with lightweight slide conversion. I can't remember what it sounded like beforehand though.

Reedman1 · Post by **Reedman1** » Mon May 23, 2022 11:08 am

bobroden wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 2:33 pm Is there a typical way a horn's sound and feel are affected when you replace the original slide's outer with a carbon fiber one?

In my experience, the biggest difference is simply the overall weight and balance, both of which improve with a CF outer slide. You may find you have to articulate a bit more energetically, but that could be down to any number of reasons. Your sound will be either unchanged or so minimally changed that it will make no difference.

bobroden · Post by **bobroden** » Mon May 23, 2022 12:41 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 4:52 pm Schmelzer model 1 is .500, very lightweight, very well balanced, easy to hold with a Williams-style grip, and plays great.

Thanks, Doug, I'm not familiar with that horn and am glad to get it on my radar. I see that the model 2 is also described as lightweight -- do you have any sense of the difference between the model 1 and the model 2, in terms of weight or other characteristics?

ithinknot · Post by **ithinknot** » Mon May 23, 2022 1:02 pm

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 11:08 am the overall weight and balance, both of which improve with a CF outer slide

...except when the left-right balance changes in a way that exacerbates existing issues. How does your horn feel in position with the outer slide removed entirely? It's a lot lighter, sure, but countering the outwards roll via your index finger and wrist may drive you nuts.

What Fidbone said above about balance mattering more than weight... The trombone is such a weird ergonomic proposition to begin with, and 'physical problems' covers so many possibilities. You just have to try stuff.

Even a light bell section like a Martin Urbie is a lot more comfortable for me with a counterweight. And once counterweights are involved, try them off-center, down by the neckpipe for less torque - even if ferrules require drilling them out partially. (On some horns it plays better there too... or worse. I'd be surprised if you don't notice a difference one way or the other.)

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Mon May 23, 2022 1:05 pm

ithinknot wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 1:02 pm
Reedman1 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 11:08 am the overall weight and balance, both of which improve with a CF outer slide
...except when the left-right balance changes in a way that exacerbates existing issues. How does your horn feel in position with the outer slide removed entirely? It's a lot lighter, sure, but countering the outwards roll via your index finger and wrist may drive you nuts.

This was the worst issue I have with my Butler slide.

Reedman1 · Post by **Reedman1** » Tue May 24, 2022 8:44 pm

ithinknot wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 1:02 pm
Reedman1 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 11:08 am the overall weight and balance, both of which improve with a CF outer slide
...except when the left-right balance changes in a way that exacerbates existing issues. How does your horn feel in position with the outer slide removed entirely? It's a lot lighter, sure, but countering the outwards roll via your index finger and wrist may drive you nuts.

What Fidbone said above about balance mattering more than weight... The trombone is such a weird ergonomic proposition to begin with, and 'physical problems' covers so many possibilities. You just have to try stuff.

Even a light bell section like a Martin Urbie is a lot more comfortable for me with a counterweight. And once counterweights are involved, try them off-center, down by the neckpipe for less torque - even if ferrules require drilling them out partially. (On some horns it plays better there too... or worse. I'd be surprised if you don't notice a difference one way or the other.)

I haven’t really noticed that issue. My first Butler slide is on a 2B with a Peppy bell. The Peppy bell is a little heavy, but I just let it sink into my left hand and I’m all right. The other Butler slide is on a Butler JJ, which has its own balance issues - but the lateral balance isn’t bothersome. BTW I have communicated with Dave Butler about counterweights (needed!), and I think I got through to him. Could take a while, though.

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Tue May 24, 2022 9:53 pm

bobroden wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 12:41 pm
Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 4:52 pm Schmelzer model 1 is .500, very lightweight, very well balanced, easy to hold with a Williams-style grip, and plays great.
Thanks, Doug, I'm not familiar with that horn and am glad to get it on my radar. I see that the model 2 is also described as lightweight -- do you have any sense of the difference between the model 1 and the model 2, in terms of weight or other characteristics?

I'm not sure if I've tried any current model 2's... just older ones. It's a .508 that feels significantly larger, and slightly heavier, than a model 1. I have two very early model 1's and a friend has an early model 2 that I played recently.

I think Horn Guys is his only distributor in the US, and I have no idea if they have any in stock.

The past few years when he's been at ITF I thought the new horns were outstanding. He's not coming this year.

ACBEric · Post by **ACBEric** » Wed May 25, 2022 12:40 pm

The XO 1632RLT and the XO 1634RLT are some of the lightest in weight that I have ever picked up and played. The really pleasant surprise is how full and rich they play. I expected them, due to their weight, to be very bright and to my surprise they had a very moderate and even tone (to even a darker tone with the 1634). I am very impressed with these horns.

DaveAshley · Post by **DaveAshley** » Wed May 25, 2022 3:06 pm

EKTrombone wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 6:19 am Lawler horns are the lightest that I've ever hold so far

My Lawler 1 is easily the heaviest non F-attachment horn I own.

My favorite light horn is the Martin Urbie Green -- very comfortable to hold!

ssking2b · Post by **ssking2b** » Thu May 26, 2022 9:43 am

I’m playing the XO 1632. Very light, with a fantastic lightweight slide, and sounds phenomenal

bobroden · Post by **bobroden** » Thu May 26, 2022 1:07 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 9:53 pm
I'm not sure if I've tried any current model 2's... just older ones. It's a .508 that feels significantly larger, and slightly heavier, than a model 1. I have two very early model 1's and a friend has an early model 2 that I played recently.

Thanks, Doug, that's helpful. I hadn't noticed that the model 2 is a .508, so the model 1 is definitely more my style.

dershem · Post by **dershem** » Fri May 27, 2022 6:55 pm

I recently got the XO Fedchock, and I love it. It is very light, very responsive, and has a beautiful sound. Much better than my old 2B.

bobroden · Post by **bobroden** » Sat May 28, 2022 5:03 pm

dershem wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 6:55 pm I recently got the XO Fedchock, and I love it. It is very light, very responsive, and has a beautiful sound. Much better than my old 2B.

Glad to hear that's working out for you. Have you played it yet in a group situation, as opposed to by yourself? I always feel like I can't judge a horn until I see how it feels in an ensemble -- for me, usually a jazz combo setting.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Sat May 28, 2022 6:53 pm

Monkhouse wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 9:57 am
greenbean wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 5:53 pm The lightest horns I have are 2B's, small Bachs with LT slides, and a Conn 6H. One could always remove oversleeves to make a slide lighter - like the 6H.
I have a 2b with lightweight slide conversion. I can't remember what it sounded like beforehand though.

I'm fooling with the idea of having an oversleeve or 2 removed. Doing so does affect the sound though.

Bell weight isn't an issue for me except when it becomes too light. The 100H and Jiggs 2B are unbearably light.

bigbandbone · Post by **bigbandbone** » Sun May 29, 2022 6:35 am

Any vintage Conn smallbore would be very light. And the .485 bore horns play much bigger than expected. When I'm not playing bass bone I'm playing on a highly modified 20H Conquest. Very light, easy to hold up. And plays great.

dershem · Post by **dershem** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:33 pm

bobroden wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:03 pm
dershem wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 6:55 pm I recently got the XO Fedchock, and I love it. It is very light, very responsive, and has a beautiful sound. Much better than my old 2B.
Glad to hear that's working out for you. Have you played it yet in a group situation, as opposed to by yourself? I always feel like I can't judge a horn until I see how it feels in an ensemble -- for me, usually a jazz combo setting.

I've played it on a a few gigs now. A jazz combo, a rock band and a big band playing 2nd chair. Takes a bit more effort for the last, but the lead player there is very loud.

bobroden · Post by **bobroden** » Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:26 pm

dershem wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:33 pm
bobroden wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:03 pm

Glad to hear that's working out for you. Have you played it yet in a group situation, as opposed to by yourself? I always feel like I can't judge a horn until I see how it feels in an ensemble -- for me, usually a jazz combo setting.
I've played it on a a few gigs now. A jazz combo, a rock band and a big band playing 2nd chair. Takes a bit more effort for the last, but the lead player there is very loud.

Excellent, glad to hear it. It's impressive that a horn that light can hold its own in all those settings.

HermanGerman · Post by **HermanGerman** » Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:45 am

ACBEric wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 12:40 pm The XO 1632RLT and the XO 1634RLT are some of the lightest in weight that I have ever picked up and played. The really pleasant surprise is how full and rich they play. I expected them, due to their weight, to be very bright and to my surprise they had a very moderate and even tone (to even a darker tone with the 1634). I am very impressed with these horns.

I recently bought a second XO 1634. The yellow brass bell section without tuning slide has 483 gr, the red brass bell 523 gr. I think the 1632 bells are even lighter (sure because they are smaller, too)

dukesboneman · Post by **dukesboneman** » Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:43 am

I had a King 2B+ that was by far THE Lightest instrument I`d ever played
I currently have a Bach 12 that I had the hand slide over sleeves taken off and a Nickel light weight crook put on. Surprising light and yet it play some what darker.
I`ve tried the Fedchocks and they are very light.
I don`t know if you want to go this route, Kai Winding used to take New 2B`s and have King strip them and relacquer them so they would extra light. http://bjbear71.com/Winding/Non-album1. ... g%20Played

Post by **Matt K** » Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:10 am

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:43 am I had a King 2B+ that was by far THE Lightest instrument I`d ever played
I currently have a Bach 12 that I had the hand slide over sleeves taken off and a Nickel light weight crook put on. Surprising light and yet it play some what darker.
I`ve tried the Fedchocks and they are very light.
I don`t know if you want to go this route, Kai Winding used to take New 2B`s and have King strip them and relacquer them so they would extra light. http://bjbear71.com/Winding/Non-album1. ... g%20Played

What crook did you put on it?

I picked up an M/K drawing Olds .515 crook that I'm having put on my franken 606/607 slide (on user Crazy4Tbone86's bench waiting for the 606 parts now!). Curious how that will turn out, but unfortunately I won't know if it's the crook or any of the other crazy stuff I'm doing if the slide turns out well.

I've had similar experiences with nickel crooks. I think the reason they paradoxically sound darker to me is I have a slightly easier time articulating, so I consequently have more control over the timbre. Maybe.

Conn100HGuy · Post by **Conn100HGuy** » Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:31 am

The Conn 100H has 2 mentions - one positive and one negative. I'll add a positive rating. If you get a chance to try one, go for it.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:51 am

Conn100HGuy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:31 am The Conn 100H has 2 mentions - one positive and one negative. I'll add a positive rating. If you get a chance to try one, go for it.

I've played a few of these. One was amazing, another was uninspiring, a third was junk. I'd have to play one of these before I put money down on one again. I really want them to be great instruments, especially with the pedigree and the previous success of the 6h.

I'm not sure it's considered light weight, but I had a Wessex copy of the Martin Urbie Green 4501 which was a really solid straight up 0.500 bore. Nothing fancy, but well made and it was a joy to play, and cheap. It would make a nice backup horn, even a good younger player horn, or maybe just a very playable 500 bore if you don't already have one.

dukesboneman · Post by **dukesboneman** » Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:33 pm

MattK,
I put a Bach 12 Nickel crook on it. I looked all over the country for one. Bach had none, I checked with many different instrument shops (Dillons, Hickeys, etc) nobody had one EXCEPT........ Brad Close. The horn played great before but now it`s a freer and much lighter.
I had a 16M some years ago and I wanted to open it up. I was playing in a High Energy, High Powered R&B Band at the time. I put a Kanstul H8 leadpipe in it and had 3B hand slide and tuning slide crooks put on it. This thing just SANG in the upper range and held together at no matter what the volume was. And took all the air you could give it.