BRITISH STYLE BARITONE INFO PLEASE.

SFA · Post by **SFA** » Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:25 pm

Hi.

I've been able to play a Jupiter 462 over the last couple of weeks and might buy baritone.
I would appreciated any insight you may have regarding manufacturer/things to look out for.
It would only be for use as a hobby along with trombone.

Lighter weight would be an advantage. Are their disadvantages with a 3/4 size baritone?

Thanks,
Steve.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:21 pm

I suppose the first question would be whether the 3/4 size baritone is actually any lighter than the full-size version - or is it just wrapped differently?

Looking at the Jupiter site (http://jupitermusic.com/international/p ... baritones/)...
The JBR700 (full size) and JBR730 (3/4" size) both have 9.5" bells. The JBR700 has a smaller bore (.512" vs. ,531" for the JBR730), so it would not surprise me to hear that it's actually the lighter of the two.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:24 am

I agree with the post on another forum that the smaller (e.g. B&H Imperial, Besson New Standard) baritones seem to work better with smaller mouthpieces so depending which trombone setup(s) you use, a larger model (e.g. Besson Sovereign) might be more forgiving if you prefer to have a bigger mouthpiece and use more air. My own personal experience with an Imperial was that it backed up a bit when I tried to put too much through it. I’m not sure how these sizes translate to 3/4 and full, I suppose an Imperial/New Standard might be classified as 3/4 these days? I’m sure you could get used to it with a bit of practice and adjustment so it’s only really a minor disadvantage.

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthrea ... outhpieces

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:53 am

The imperials do indeed prefer I will say shallower mouthpieces but with practice you can use anything that fits, but the key is learn to play the instrument, you can’t blow them the way you do a trombone, you “blow around them, not through them” as the old saying goes but once mastered can produce a great sound

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:06 am

Yes, agree, you can work around it with some practice and get a really sweet sound on an Imperial, similarly to with an Imperial euphonium compared with larger models.

I’ve got my eye on an old New Standard baritone at Trevada brass which is up for a very reasonable price IMHO. Not sure where I’d play it though, other than brass bands any ideas? I’ve got a bit of nostalgia for baritone as pretty much the pinnacle of my mediocre banding career was playing 1st baritone at the British Open on Maunsell Forts. It’s a cracking piece btw. If you like textures and atmosphere, I think the winning performance (Cory?, sadly not us, we finished well down the order!) is on Youtube.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:36 am

I'd bet a quintet using the British Baritone on 4th and a British Tenor (Alto) Horn on 3rd with 2 cornets on top might have an interesting sound.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:29 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:36 am I'd bet a quintet using the British Baritone on 4th and a British Tenor (Alto) Horn on 3rd with 2 cornets on top might have an interesting sound.

The Make Believe Brass (a house brass quintet at Disneyland) used two cornets, a British baritone, a trombone, and a helicon.

Here's a interview with some of the members that includes some cuts from their CD:

Pezza · Post by **Pezza** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:57 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:36 am I'd bet a quintet using the British Baritone on 4th and a British Tenor (Alto) Horn on 3rd with 2 cornets on top might have an interesting sound.

Fairly common to use a baritone instead of a trombone on 4th. Especially with a eupho or bass trom instead of a tuba on 5th.

SFA · Post by **SFA** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:05 pm

Thanks for the information supplied. I appreciate your help.

Steve.

timbone · Post by **timbone** » Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:34 pm

I’d look at the Besson 157 for a decent “hobby” horn. For a mouthpiece, a 6.5 seems to work well.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:32 am

Interesting ideas to use a baritone on 3rd or 4th in a quintet, thanks for sharing. I could see how it would be a nice alternative to french horn on 3rd to offer something a bit different. The player would need an awesome high range though!

On 4th I personally prefer the sound of a trombone but at least a baritone is closer than a euphonium so if someone is determined to play valves I can also see how that would work. It’s a bit of a niche and pet peeve of mine but I hate playing trombone cramped into old church stalls or other compact spaces, baritone would be very nice option for then, or when suffering from some shoulder/arm issues.

The quintets I’ve seen which were formed from brass band players, had two cornets, a British style Eb tenor horn on 3rd, trombone on 4th and tuba on 5th. Also a nice combo.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:21 am

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:32 am Interesting ideas to use a baritone on 3rd or 4th in a quintet, thanks for sharing. I could see how it would be a nice alternative to french horn on 3rd to offer something a bit different. The player would need an awesome high range though!

As mentioned in the video, anyone who subbed for the Make Believe Brass tended to get a deer in the headlights sort of look - but anyone who subbed on baritone had the additional challenge of the part being an utter chop buster, further complicated by the fact that the subs were usually playing a euphonium (British-style baritones weren't all that common back then).

btone · Post by **btone** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:51 pm

A British baritone has a much smaller bore and is less conical than an American baritone or a euphonium. A Besson Imperial is a euphonium, larger than an American baritone, which is in between a British baritone and a euphonium in bore size. Unless I'm mistaken the only major difference in an Imperial and a Sovereign is the size of the bell flare. I would not wish for some of the statements in this thread to confuse the less experienced reader.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:24 pm

For clarity, there are not only Imperial (and Sovereign) euphoniums, but also many other instruments in the Imperial (and Sovereign) range, including British style baritones. I’ve personally played Imperial and Sovereign British style baritones and Euphoniums. I fully stand by the statement that the Imperial (or equivalent New Standard) British baritones are a little smaller (bore and bell size) than most larger Sovereign or other “modern” equivalent British style baritones, and that the Imperials may be reasonably referred to as small, according to current trends.

elmsandr · Post by **elmsandr** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:00 pm

btone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:51 pm A British baritone has a much smaller bore and is less conical than an American baritone or a euphonium. A Besson Imperial is a euphonium, larger than an American baritone, which is in between a British baritone and a euphonium in bore size. Unless I'm mistaken the only major difference in an Imperial and a Sovereign is the size of the bell flare. I would not wish for some of the statements in this thread to confuse the less experienced reader.

No.. Imperial and Sovereigns were "lines"...

Borrowed from a TubeNET thread:

This thread could eat a lot of bandwidth. But, oversimplified, to address the nomenclature:
"Imperial" is the name used for the B&H versions, of whatever era, until Besson stopped using the B&H brand as a brass line.
"New Standard" is the Besson name for the same horns, roughly from the '50's until the '70's.
"Sovereign" is the redesign...

And we can add the Prestige to the list...

That is, there were cornets, baritones, euphoniums, and tubas that were all branded Imperial. Much like there are trumpets and trombones both branded "Stradivarius".

Cheers,
Andy

btone · Post by **btone** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:11 pm

The Imperial I am familiar with is the Besson euphonium and it is a full size English euphonium with a 1" smaller bell flare than the Sovereign. I didn't understand you meant a baritone. The Imperial euph seemed to replace what I think was the medium shank New Standard as an American import in the early 1970's. I have an English bore baritone from the 1970's and it says neither Imperial or Sovereign so I don't know about that, but it doesn't much like anything larger than a 5g or 51. Was there a 3 valve Boosey Euphonium in the Sovereign line? I have a silver one with the large upright bell.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:40 am

btone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:11 pm The Imperial I am familiar with is the Besson euphonium and it is a full size English euphonium with a 1" smaller bell flare than the Sovereign.

I have one of these Imperial euphoniums, probably a 60s vintage and it is my main euphonium these days so I know it well. It still has the original medium shank receiver and has been through the mill a bit but has huge sentimental value to me.

B124EA10-012B-4720-82FD-0E3D743C25FB.jpeg

By the way, there is still a Sovereign euphonium with 11“ bell in the Besson line-up, the BE968. That‘s the same bell size as my Imperial but there are some other differences if you put them side-by-side. I assume the Sovereign euphonium you‘re familiar is the more widely-used BE967 with 12“ bell.

btone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:11 pm I have an English bore baritone from the 1970's and it says neither Imperial or Sovereign so I don't know about that, but it doesn't much like anything larger than a 5g or 51.

The Imperial/New Standard were basically the top-of-the-line models, there were other product lines below that. Does your British baritone have any markings? Is it compensating or non-compensating? The Imperial baritones I played were 3V compensating.

btone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:11 pm Was there a 3 valve Boosey Euphonium in the Sovereign line? I have a silver one with the large upright bell.

I’ve never heard of a Sovereign euphonium with 3V, doesn’t mean there isn’t one though??? Any markings on your instrument? Compensating? Maybe look out for some indication of x00 series, e.g. 700 series or model 762 which I have seen as 3V comp and was the range directly below the 900 series Sovereign. There could also have been a 3V non-comp in that range, trying to think back if I’ve seen one.

Pezza · Post by **Pezza** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:01 am

There was a 3 valve boosey & hawkes soverign euphonium. The old round stamp.

sungfw · Post by **sungfw** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:37 am

elmsandr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:00 pm That is, there were cornets, baritones, euphoniums, and tubas that were all branded Imperial.

As well as Imperial branded flugelhorns, alto horns, trumpets (yes, B&H made trumpets) and herald trumpets.

sungfw · Post by **sungfw** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:44 am

Pezza wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:01 am There was a 3 valve boosey & hawkes soverign euphonium. The old round stamp.

Yup. The 960: 3v compensating, 305 mm/12" bell, per the 1978 B&H Euph spec sheet.

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:29 am

We seem to have drifted away from the original topic. The OP was looking for information on the British Brass Band BARITONE, which is a smaller bore instrument (typically 0.515" (13.1 mm)) and not the much larger bore Euphonium. I know we tend to use these terms interchangeably in the US, but there is a difference.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:29 am

Pezza wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:01 am There was a 3 valve boosey & hawkes soverign euphonium. The old round stamp.

Nice, learnt something new, I would have been very happy to use that on the march! Don’t really need much 4th valve in most British brass band marches I’ve ever played.

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:16 am

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:29 am
Pezza wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:01 am There was a 3 valve boosey & hawkes soverign euphonium. The old round stamp.
Nice, learnt something new, I would have been very happy to use that on the march! Don’t really need much 4th valve in most British brass band marches I’ve ever played.

Only ever played/seen those old sov’s with 4 valves

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:03 am

Imperial is what they called the boosey and hawkes models, new standard is what they called the besson models. There is no such thing as a "besson imperial." There are of course imperial/new standard baritones and in my opinion they are awful. The smaller bell and bore isn't necessarily the problem so much as they just hadn't put in the effort on the acoustical design of the "harmony" instruments until the sovereign came around and the intonation is a *huge* challenge.

My current favorite baritone is the Yamaha Neo YBH-831S. It's really fantastic. The projection, tone color, response are all so good. It has a couple of notes that aren't perfect way up above high C (speaking in Bb pitch terms) but that's the territory where you'd be expected to mess with alternate fingerings.

The sterling (not JP Sterling) would be my second choice but it's a much heavier instrument and doesn't respond quite as quickly and IMO doesn't project as well. It's a very good instrument but IMO it's less fun to play.

3rd choice would be a new Besson 955. The older ones are highly variable. Some are ok, some are very very not OK. They did change the bore size of the 955 sometime in the 1990s to simplify manufacturing by having parts in common with the 4-valve model but it really doesn't play significantly differently for them having done that.

If you're on a budget the wessex 3-valve isn't bad at all. It has some intonation problems but they aren't terrible. I do not like the 4-valve wessex at all, they copied all the problems that the besson prestige baritone has, and they are numerous.

I also have a JP sterling that I lend out to other players and it's OK but the intonation problems are worse than the wessex and it has a kind of thin bell which means you have to be careful to not get too barky a sound.

3-valve non-compensating like besson 757 and yamaha ybh-301 can be OK but keep in mind you will have to deal with the very sharp 1+3, 2+3, and 1+2+3 combos without the benefit of any sort of trigger or slide tuning mechanism. They are smaller than the rest of the choices and have a little bit of a different sound. Not a problem if it's a practice instrument or for use in a quintet but in a brass band it's not sound you are looking for. The Besson 157 is the replacement for the 757 and I don't like it as much. I think it may be Indian-made?

Anything billing itself as "3/4 size" is really intended for use as a beginner euphonium and not a baritone.

I've done a quintet with cornets, Eb tenorhorn, baritone, and Eb tuba before and it blends great! The Ewald quintets in particular work GREAT like this!!

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:15 pm

Excellent post bbocaner.

I don’t personally remember the Imperial being all that awful with a smaller (shallower) MP but I spend a lot of time playing a German oval tenorhorn (non-comp) with some very interesting tuning characteristics so am quite forgiving when it comes to alternative finger combinations and lipping notes in. Maybe nostalgia is clouding my judgement a bit.

Do you happen to know if the Wessex 3V tends to tune with a tendency to higher, middle or lower tuning compared to other instruments you’ve played? From your description it sounds like a decent instrument and I might be tempted to try one. Some of the groups I play in tune to A=443Hz or even 444 and this is really on the edge for some horns. I tend to play naturally a bit flat so on most instruments I play the tuning slide is close to all in at A=443Hz.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:36 pm

Honestly I don't know if the wessex has room to push in to A=443, the most time I ever had with one was about an hour and I just didn't think to try that -- all my testing was centered around pitch relative to itself at A=440.

With the new standard all of my problems were with notes in the octave from the treble clef C above the middle line (sounding a major 9th lower of course) to about an octave above that. I really dislike having to use 1+3 for the d, 1+2 for the e, 1+2 for the b, etc.

sungfw · Post by **sungfw** » Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:44 pm

bbocaner wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:03 am There is no such thing as a "besson imperial."

Formally speaking, no, there isn't; but, as with most things, usus loquendi trumps formal nomenclature.

As the 1978 B&H euph spec sheet linked above and the images linked below show, B&H named B&H-branded 700 series of instruments "Imperial Besson." Given the English language convention of denominating items starting with the most general designator and moving successively to the more specific (e.g.Honda Accord LX, Canon ImageRunner C5550i, Doug Elliot XT 104/I, as opposed to LX Accord Honda, C5550i ImageRunner Cannon, 104/I XT Doug Elliott), and the all-but-inevitable confusion occasioned by B&H's ownership and simultaneous marketing of "Besson" as a brand (with distinct line names, i.e., Westminster, Stratford, New Standard, etc., and model numbers) in addition to the B&H "Imperial Besson" line, it's not at all surprising or unexpected that "Imperial Besson" instruments came to be referred to colloquially as "Besson Imperials."

btone · Post by **btone** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:08 pm

Thanks to "sungfw" for posting the Boosey 960 related spec sheet attachment. Mine looks like that except it is satin silver finish.
In response to "MrHCinDE" my English bore baritone is marked "Besson 2-20", has an 8-inch Bell and appears to be non-compensating. I think it plays pretty well and is fun for jazz improv. I recently had the tuning slide shortened a little so I could play up to pitch with larger mouthpieces. Also to "MrHC", I can understand your attachment to your Boosey Hawkes Imperial; I have enjoyed my Besson 11" bell "Imperial"? since 1972.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:59 am

Here‘s an extract of the Besson catalogue from 1958 if it‘s of interest to you:

8FC09054-77E3-4808-AC1B-E96BF2EBCAE4.jpeg

After all this talk of British baritones, by coincidence I may have just got a gig on baritone for the Whit Friday marches. I was signed up to play EEb bass but it seems the 1st baritone can‘t make it and I might be switching to baritone. Either way it‘ll be fun, seems that we‘ll be playing Knight Templar.

btone · Post by **btone** » Sat Apr 16, 2022 9:49 pm

I went and rechecked the bell diameter of my Besson 2-20 baritone after I read those 1958 specs and it is a just a fraction over 8 inches. Mine still looked pretty newish when I got it used around 1977 or 1978 so it must have just been a later version. So, is the 2-20 a New Standard or just a no frills offering? It is satin silver with the inside of the bell and tuning slide crooks a polished finish.

Molefsky · Post by **Molefsky** » Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:01 am

The 2-20 is going to be a budget offering from decades ago. It's not an imperial/new standard or sovereign by any means.

I personally have access to a sov, several imperials and new standards, as well as a Wessex and a Yamaha ybh-621. Our players tend to prefer the Yamaha the best (noncomp 3+1 with great intonation and slotting). They like the blow of the sov but the sound of the imperials/new standards.

These horns do not pop up for sale frequently so you might set aside a couple thousand bucks and be ready to jump on a deal.

Drombone · Post by **Drombone** » Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:26 pm

I have a real beef with the saxhorns, both the Eb Tenor horn (Alto horn if you're USA) and the Baritone (Tenor horn). In the UK, they are Brass Band instruments, and that's it. And they're only there to fill out the gap between the valved bugles (cornets) and the Euphs / Troms. French Horns would do a better job, and sound nicer. Or Alto troms.

They are very easy to make a horrible noise on, and nigh on impossible to sound good on. The 'German' Baritones, which look more like Wagner tubas sound nicer, as they are more conical.

But, if you really need one, get a Besson.

Sorry. My opinion of these instruments is based on hearing too many Brass bands. If you make a nice sound on one, you are one of few and I salute you.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:44 pm

Drombone wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:26 pmThey are very easy to make a horrible noise on, and nigh on impossible to sound good on. The 'German' Baritones, which look more like Wagner tubas sound nicer, as they are more conical.

Are the horrible noises being make by people for whom the Eb tenor horn or Bb baritone are their primary instrument? Here in the US, a lot of people playing tenor horn are either French horn players (many of whom use French horn mouthpieces with an adapter and claim it sounds better) or trumpet players. For baritone, they're often euphonium or trombone players who try to use their regular mouthpiece (or a small shank version of same).

Drombone · Post by **Drombone** » Sun May 08, 2022 5:10 pm

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:44 pm Are the horrible noises being make by people for whom the Eb tenor horn or Bb baritone are their primary instrument?

Yep.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Sun May 08, 2022 7:56 pm

Drombone wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:26 pmFrench Horns would do a better job, and sound nicer. Or Alto troms.

They are very easy to make a horrible noise on, and nigh on impossible to sound good on.

This is a joke, right?

spencercarran · Post by **spencercarran** » Thu May 12, 2022 10:46 am

Drombone wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:26 pm I have a real beef with the saxhorns, both the Eb Tenor horn (Alto horn if you're USA) and the Baritone (Tenor horn). In the UK, they are Brass Band instruments, and that's it. And they're only there to fill out the gap between the valved bugles (cornets) and the Euphs / Troms. French Horns would do a better job, and sound nicer. Or Alto troms.

They are very easy to make a horrible noise on, and nigh on impossible to sound good on. The 'German' Baritones, which look more like Wagner tubas sound nicer, as they are more conical.

But, if you really need one, get a Besson.

Sorry. My opinion of these instruments is based on hearing too many Brass bands. If you make a nice sound on one, you are one of few and I salute you.

That's a strange perspective. I'd say that baritone horn is probably the most user-friendly instrument I've ever tried, and I've certainly heard plenty of good playing on it in brass bands.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu May 12, 2022 11:15 am

Finetales wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 7:56 pm
Drombone wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:26 pmFrench Horns would do a better job, and sound nicer. Or Alto troms.

They are very easy to make a horrible noise on, and nigh on impossible to sound good on.
This is a joke, right?

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 10:46 amThat's a strange perspective. I'd say that baritone horn is probably the most user-friendly instrument I've ever tried, and I've certainly heard plenty of good playing on it in brass bands.

I think we've veered into a question of taste, here.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Thu May 12, 2022 1:04 pm

I find baritone more difficult to play than euphonium. Euphonium you can pretty much do whatever with an a beautiful sound always comes out. Baritone you really always need to be thinking warm air, beautiful sound because it can sound ugly if you're not vigilant. Also the instruments tend to be a little less forgiving when it comes to intonation.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Fri May 13, 2022 6:41 am

In my opinion the best baritone players I've played alongside have been baritone specialists, including one or two who studied it as there main instrument in a music performance degree. There's a real skill to it. They have quite varied roles in a British brass band, sometimes providing the lower parts of chords with the tenor horns, sometimes a bit of clarity to bass figures (large, modern euphoniums can get a bit woofy and can benefit from a unison baritone to give a bit of clarity), sometimes joining the trombones and occasisonally, mainly in test pieces, having their own solo/duet lines.

Great baritone players need quite a bit of musical intelligence to figure out where they fit in the ensemble and have the tricky job of finding some reasonable intonation and balance between the lower horns and euphs/troms/basses on an instrument which doesn't always help them with that task.

I'm sorry but I had to laugh at the idea of replacing the tenor horns and/or baritones with alto trombones. Some bands have trouble finding tenor or bass trombonists, good luck to every town or village band in their search for 3-5 alto trombonists who could all play in tune and with a nice alto sound. Also, even two college-educated alto trombonists in unison can be tricky with intonation, I don't fancy the chances of getting 3-5 alto trombonists to all play together. French horns could be an option, especially for new bands starting up in areas without much tradition of British brass bands, but again, finding those numbers of skilled french horn players isn't easy, aside from any discussion about taste and sound.

The great thing about British brass bands is that people can move freely between instruments without giving a 2nd thought to transposition, bass trombone aside. It might be coincidence but many of the 1st baritone players I've known are also stalwarts of the banding movement and some of the most reliable and down-to-earth people around the stand.

I'm happy to agree with this point:

Drombone wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:26 pm If you make a nice sound on one, you are one of few and I salute you.

Good baritone (and tenor horn) players are the unsung heroes of the banding movement

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Fri May 13, 2022 8:38 am

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 6:41 amIt might be coincidence but many of the 1st baritone players I've known are also stalwarts of the banding movement and some of the most reliable and down-to-earth people around the stand.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 6:41 amGood baritone (and tenor horn) players are the unsung heroes of the banding movement

This makes perfect sense in a way. If one plays cornet, trombone, euphonium, or tuba, there are other options as far as ensembles with which to play. For a dyed-in-the-wool tenor or baritone player, brass band is pretty much the only option.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Fri May 13, 2022 2:40 pm

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 6:41 amI'm sorry but I had to laugh at the idea of replacing the tenor horns and/or baritones with alto trombones. Some bands have trouble finding tenor or bass trombonists, good luck to every town or village band in their search for 3-5 alto trombonists who could all play in tune and with a nice alto sound. Also, even two college-educated alto trombonists in unison can be tricky with intonation, I don't fancy the chances of getting 3-5 alto trombonists to all play together. French horns could be an option, especially for new bands starting up in areas without much tradition of British brass bands, but again, finding those numbers of skilled french horn players isn't easy, aside from any discussion about taste and sound.

Not to mention that tenor horn parts in modern brass band music (especially test pieces) would be impossible to play on an alto trombone, and significantly more difficult on French horn. They don't just play upbeats...often it's more like a DCI mellophone book with lots of fast 16th-note runs all over the place. Tenor horn is the best instrument for the job, and it blends well with every other instrument in the band (save maybe the basses). Honestly the only other reasonable option would be a modern mellophone...but if we're talking about instruments difficult to make a good sound on, mellophone would be a lot worse.

JohnL wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:38 am This makes perfect sense in a way. If one plays cornet, trombone, euphonium, or tuba, there are other options as far as ensembles with which to play. For a dyed-in-the-wool tenor or baritone player, brass band is pretty much the only option.

It's interesting that brass banding isn't more popular in southern California, being as it's one of the few places in the world where tenor horn players have another playing opportunity (Mexican banda music).

Drombone · Post by **Drombone** » Fri May 13, 2022 4:56 pm

Wow. I've caught a wave. Of what not sure. All I can speak of is what I've heard. Which is, to be fair, low to middle standard bari/alto playing. And I've heard more awful than passable. Yes, I know that Eb horn parts often would be technically challenging to impossible on Alto trb. I'm not daft, I can play valved instruments. But you should sit next to or behind a lower section horn/bari section and your ears won't thank you.

And I'm ABSOLUTELY not saying I could do better. I haven't tried. I would probably sound like a fox, strangling a chicken while being kicked in the balls by an irate farmer.

Pezza · Post by **Pezza** » Fri May 13, 2022 5:36 pm

I love the 1st bari part, but being a trom/eupho player I struggle to play 1 nicely, especially at louder dynamics.

Without the horns & baris a brass band sounds empty. They are often used as an instrument anyone can play, where they really are a specialist 1 to play properly!

spencercarran · Post by **spencercarran** » Sat May 14, 2022 8:01 am

Drombone wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 4:56 pm Wow. I've caught a wave. Of what not sure. All I can speak of is what I've heard. Which is, to be fair, low to middle standard bari/alto playing. And I've heard more awful than passable. Yes, I know that Eb horn parts often would be technically challenging to impossible on Alto trb. I'm not daft, I can play valved instruments. But you should sit next to or behind a lower section horn/bari section and your ears won't thank you.

Sure, most instruments sound bad when played badly.