Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post Reply
Specialk3700
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:43 pm
Location: Ohio

Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by Specialk3700 »

I recently borrowed a standard modern bach 50 leadpipe to put in my Edwards B454 and have fallen in love with it. My first thought is to buy a bach 50 leadpipe and have a tech put collar on it with edwards threads. From everything I've heard and experienced about bach trombones is they are pretty inconsistent. Do you guys have any ideas if this extends to leadpipes as well? I'd rather avoid having one made if the one I'm borrowing just happens to be magic.
Engineering student with a trombone problem.
Edwards B454
Shires Bravo
Yamaha 354
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 4526
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by Burgerbob »

I have an amazing modern pipe as well, I have an instrument innovations ring on it.

They're not all quite as amazing for sure, but they seem to be doing something right.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
blast
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:46 am

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by blast »

All leadpipes, any maker vary. Good makers vary a little, others vary a lot.
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

My experience is that the Bach leadpipes vary quite a bit. However, I have dealt more with the 36 and 42 leadpipes than the 50. I own three Bach 50 pipes that I pulled from horns and they are all rather good….just slightly different.

The pipe I use most often is my BrassArk NY50 in seamed yellow brass. It is very different from my three stock 50 pipes.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 4526
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by Burgerbob »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:16 am

The pipe I use most often is my BrassArk NY50 in seamed yellow brass. It is very different from my three stock 50 pipes.
Fwiw, the pipe I replaced with this modern 50 pipe was a Brassark NY50. The Bach was better in every way.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
Bonearzt
Posts: 715
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:40 am
Location: My Dungeon of Hell....Actually Texas
Contact:

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by Bonearzt »

blast wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:33 am All leadpipes, any maker vary. Good makers vary a little, others vary a lot.
THIS EXACTLY!!!!
Eric Edwards
Professional Instrument Repair
972.795.5784

"If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you haven't tried yet."
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -Sophocles
Thrawn22
Posts: 1278
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:18 pm

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by Thrawn22 »

I've been lucky that amost all of my stock Bach pipes work great.
6H (K series)
6H (early 60s)
4H/5H custom bell
78H ('53)
78H (K series)
78H/36BG /2547 slide
8H
88HN
71H (dependant valves)
72H
35H alto (K series)
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

Burgerbob wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:07 am
Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:16 am

The pipe I use most often is my BrassArk NY50 in seamed yellow brass. It is very different from my three stock 50 pipes.
Fwiw, the pipe I replaced with this modern 50 pipe was a Brassark NY50. The Bach was better in every way.
That's great! But, we must remember that leadpipes are about as personal to a player as mouthpieces. If we were to have 8 different players try 8 different Bach 50 leadpipes, it would not surprise me if each player chose a different pipe and all 8 pipes were a "favorite" for a player. That's just how leadpipes are.

I think the most important information for our OP is that one cannot expect every Bach leadpipe to be identical. Buying a stock Bach 50 leadpipe might put the OP in the same zone as the leadpipe that was borrowed, but there are no guarantees that it will be identical. In my opinion, buying a standard 50 pipe is definitely a risk worth taking.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
PaulT
Posts: 372
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:55 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by PaulT »

Specialk3700 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:03 pm I recently borrowed a standard modern bach 50 leadpipe to put in my Edwards B454 and have fallen in love with it...
Offer the guy $75 for it.
timbone
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:14 pm

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by timbone »

I have to say after the Bach strike, the guys that made and installed the leadpipes left the company. That knowledge was not passed onto the next generation. I really wanted to like them as they are pretty and seem to be well made but I couldn’t find a horn that could focus.
User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 957
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by elmsandr »

timbone wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:29 pm I have to say after the Bach strike, the guys that made and installed the leadpipes left the company. That knowledge was not passed onto the next generation. I really wanted to like them as they are pretty and seem to be well made but I couldn’t find a horn that could focus.
Question; do you know this exactly or is this conjecture based on how you feel the horns play? That is, do you know that guys A, B, and C, used to do this and they left?

Cheers,
Andy
hornbuilder
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by hornbuilder »

timbone wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:29 pm I have to say after the Bach strike, the guys that made and installed the leadpipes left the company. That knowledge was not passed onto the next generation. I really wanted to like them as they are pretty and seem to be well made but I couldn’t find a horn that could focus.
This is an entirely baseless, speculative, defamatory comment. Made by someone who works for a competitor manufacturer.
Not cool.
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
timbone
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:14 pm

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by timbone »

Dear Matthew. I owned bach horns for over 24 years. I got the us navy to buy sets of bach’s for the fleet- 16,36,42,and 50’s. They replaced the aging king inventory back in ‘79 on my word. I sold my trusty 16M to help pay for the 62H I bought from jeff reynolds. I have six Conn tis horns and many others. Go back again before the strike and start again. So, you guys are making good horns, jeff dee sounds great. I’m happy to discuss trombones. not everything is what you think it is.
User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 957
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by elmsandr »

timbone wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:03 pm Dear Matthew. I owned bach horns for over 24 years. I got the us navy to buy sets of bach’s for the fleet- 16,36,42,and 50’s. They replaced the aging king inventory back in ‘79 on my word. I sold my trusty 16M to help pay for the 62H I bought from jeff reynolds. I have six Conn tis horns and many others. Go back again before the strike and start again. So, you guys are making good horns, jeff dee sounds great. I’m happy to discuss trombones. not everything is what you think it is.
So you don't actually know that this operation actually changed?

I've been to the factory twice since the strike. Each time I stepped away at every chance I could to ask about things like this. I don't believe that I was able to ask specifically on leadpipe drawing, but EVERY OTHER OPERATION was staffed by people that did the same job from before the strike. Now, true, there was a known tour and I wasn't THAT far away from my tour guides (Phil and Ted's son)... these might not have been a random set of people for me to interact with.

Anyway, my 2018 Standard Bach 50 pipe I put a ring on is just fine on my slides with removable pipes. It is different than my two '70s pipes; the mouthpiece seats about 1/8" deeper in those and they blow like it. Not sure if it is any different than the '52 one I have; that slide is different enough that it isn't the only variable (slide is a lot heavier).

Cheers,
Andy
hornbuilder
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by hornbuilder »

timbone wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:03 pm Dear Matthew. I owned bach horns for over 24 years. I got the us navy to buy sets of bach’s for the fleet- 16,36,42,and 50’s. They replaced the aging king inventory back in ‘79 on my word. I sold my trusty 16M to help pay for the 62H I bought from jeff reynolds. I have six Conn tis horns and many others. Go back again before the strike and start again. So, you guys are making good horns, jeff dee sounds great. I’m happy to discuss trombones. not everything is what you think it is.
Tim.
This reply proves nothing, other than showing you have bought and sold many trombones in your time. You aren't unique in the regard.

Your original comment made claims about the employees at Bach that were speculative and baseless. Unless you worked there, you could not know specifically that the people who fabricated and mounted leadpipes (they would not be the same people, btw) changed, and that "knowledge was not passed down". What proof do you have of that?

And yet we have people on this thread saying they have new Bach pipes that they love.

I stand by my comment. You were trying to diminish another manufacturer, by making statements that were hyperbolic. Statements that may be read by others and taken as truth, because "it was on the internet".

Not cool.
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
timbone
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:14 pm

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by timbone »

matthew- sorry. playing the horns tells everything. I know what it is supposed to feel like and sound like- maybe you don’t?
User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 957
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by elmsandr »

timbone wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 9:48 pm matthew- sorry. playing the horns tells everything. I know what it is supposed to feel like and sound like- maybe you don’t?
So, you don't know and choose to take a swipe at another manufacturer, one that actually has some pretty darned impressive playing credentials. Huh.

Playing the horns does not tell you that "the guys that made and installed the leadpipes left the company. That knowledge was not passed onto the next generation." It tells you that you don't like what they are making now.

Most of the people in instrument factories do NOT play the horns they are making. Their feedback on what they are doing is a combination of 2nd hand from play testers, gauging from tools, and some feel. Not exactly the most direct and immediate feedback, if any.

Again, from my experience at the plant in question, the personnel doing all the work were there both before and after the strike. If there was a specific change, I would be intrigued to learn about it.

Cheers,
Andy
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by Posaunus »

Perhaps no one at the Courtois factory has ever left their job, and Courtois personnel and trombones are exactly what they were 20 years ago. I'm impressed by their continuity. :good:
timbone
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:14 pm

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by timbone »

You should be impressed. No other manufacture goes back before their official start at 1803- and they started in the late 1700’s making bugles for Napoleons army.
modelerdc
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu May 03, 2018 9:34 pm

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by modelerdc »

I want to add that Bach lead pipes are very reasonably priced, so unless you get one that happens to be subpar, they are a good value for the money. If find that a standard Bach 50 pipe is good one to try one most bass trombones when you need one that doesn't cost too much and is easy to source.
OneTon
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:44 am

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by OneTon »

This forum has tread this road previously with a similar lack of dignity and respect. Though attributing alleged or perceived quality degradation to personnel changes may not meet rigorous root cause analysis, someone with experience in procurement and as a player is entitled to their opinion. A play test is arguably less subjective than a strolling factory tour, making informal inquiries of random workers, and observing random parts in bins. Though it might be more transparent to disclose current or previous employment and/or ownership, to imply that a statement based on play tests is inherently biased or a hyperbolic exaggeration lacks foundation. Could we let specious arguments and accusations remain in the Trombone Forum, and in the past?
Richard Smith
Wichita, Kansas
Bach5G
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm

Re: Bach Leadpipe Consistency

Post by Bach5G »

modelerdc wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:37 am I want to add that Bach lead pipes are very reasonably priced, so unless you get one that happens to be subpar, they are a good value for the money. If find that a standard Bach 50 pipe is good one to try one most bass trombones when you need one that doesn't cost too much and is easy to source.
< $50 at Hickey’s last time I looked.
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”