Conn "LP"?

[Zorkomatic]

Yes, that's all correct. I'm still working on dating it against proper documentation, but there's no reason to believe Fletcher would not buy an 1893 instrument and gift it in 1917, especially given that's when Conn won the awards at the World's Fair. It could have been that it was what the store had in stock for such an occasion, to fit Fletcher's taste, from an instrument they had bought and put up for sale. How many 20 yr old horns can you find in stores these days?

[elmsandr]

Conn replied that they have no historical archives. Seems a pity that they may have discarded all those records. I wonder if a library or archive in Elkhart may still have them...

Read up on that Conn Loyalist page.

Last gasp for it all was the move to Abilene. What had not been lost at that point was destroyed.

Cheers,
Andy

[Zorkomatic]

Conn replied that they have no historical archives. Seems a pity that they may have discarded all those records. I wonder if a library or archive in Elkhart may still have them...

Read up on that Conn Loyalist page.

Last gasp for it all was the move to Abilene. What had not been lost at that point was destroyed.

Cheers,
Andy

Argh. I'm trying other angles too, checking with museums in New England that may hold the records of Consolidated Iron Works and checking with the current Carl Fischer company to see if they keep historical archives or maybe donated them to a museum.

I found a local restorer who, when I told him what I have, said he does know about these as Conn trombones stenciled by Carl Fischer and has seen them before, but he has not seen one as early as this one and didn't know Conn had bought Fisker's factory in Worcester. Since the restorer is in MA that really got his attention and I think I will be giving it to him for restoration. He's a 2nd generation music instrument restoration and repair expert. I think he will be the right one.

[jthomas105]

I am going to throw a wrench into your serial number theory. I have never seen a serial put on a bell in that location. They are generally on the slide cork barrel or the bell neckpiece. I am going to say that is a military inventory number that was added because we know the military (school district) doesn't care where they put an inventory number on something, they just want to see it and keep track of it.

[Zorkomatic]

I am going to throw a wrench into your serial number theory. I have never seen a serial put on a bell in that location. They are generally on the slide cork barrel or the bell neckpiece. I am going to say that is a military inventory number that was added because we know the military (school district) doesn't care where they put an inventory number on something, they just want to see it and keep track of it.

I'm going to throw it right back.

Isaac Fiske didn't use serial numbers on his cornets and other products prior to Conn purchasing the company, and there is no database to track any serial numbers on instruments made prior to the purchase, that I have been able to find. They wouldn't have started doing that until the Fiske plant started making some of the Conn designs; until then they just continued making the same instruments they were making before.

I have found that it was not uncommon to put serial numbers closer to the bell. You can find them that way in some French instruments. Here's another Carl Fischer trombone from the 1800's -- 1887 to be precise. The serial number is also near the bell, and it jives with the Conn database. https://www.ebay.com/itm/321131390226 In addition, The Salvation Army also put the serial numbers near the bell on their early 1900's instruments. https://www.galpinsociety.org/index_htm ... s%20LR.pdf

If the folks at the Fiske facility were making instruments for stencil sales, there's no reason why the plant would put the serial numbers wherever they either found it convenient to do so, or wherever they were told to do so by the buyer. Volume purchases always give buyers some say over those things.

[BGuttman]

You miss the point. CONN didn't put serial numbers on the bell of the instrument. Generally it was on a brace, the cork barrel, the water key lever, and near the joint on the bell side where the slide meets the bell (and sometimes all of the above). On valved instruments it was generally on the 2nd valve barrel (where it is on my Fiske made tuba).

Sure, other makers put serials on the bell; sometimes even within the engraving. Just not Conn.

[Zorkomatic]

You miss the point. CONN didn't put serial numbers on the bell of the instrument. Generally it was on a brace, the cork barrel, the water key lever, and near the joint on the bell side where the slide meets the bell (and sometimes all of the above). On valved instruments it was generally on the 2nd valve barrel (where it is on my Fiske made tuba).

Sure, other makers put serials on the bell; sometimes even within the engraving. Just not Conn.

You're missing my point. It doesn't take a genius to see this trombone was not made for retail sale as a Conn, which means all bets are off on serial number placement arguments.

[BGuttman]

You miss the point. CONN didn't put serial numbers on the bell of the instrument. Generally it was on a brace, the cork barrel, the water key lever, and near the joint on the bell side where the slide meets the bell (and sometimes all of the above). On valved instruments it was generally on the 2nd valve barrel (where it is on my Fiske made tuba).

Sure, other makers put serials on the bell; sometimes even within the engraving. Just not Conn.

You're missing my point. It doesn't take a genius to see this trombone was not made for retail sale as a Conn, which means all bets are off on serial number placement arguments.

And all bets are off regarding whether the serial number is Conn. All we know is that this instrument was engraved and presented in around 1917 (no earlier, but maybe a year later). The only thing you have on that trombone that is certifiably Conn is the counterweight, which is no older than 1960.

Unfortunately, Carl Fischer Music has been bought by another publisher, and Fischer hasn't sold band instruments for over 60 years so it's very likely that any records related to this aspect of the business are long gone.

[jthomas105]

Ok---I'm going to throw this at you. Read way below 2nd paragraph from Wikipedia link and paste excerpt- .

From the article - "During this early period Carl Fisher was also the sole U.S. agent for Besson instruments, but also imported stenciled brass instruments from Courtois, Alexander, and Bohland & Fuchs"

And from you - "I have found that it was not uncommon to put serial numbers closer to the bell. You can find them that way in some French instruments. Here's another Carl Fischer trombone from the 1800's -- 1887 to be precise."

With that I would say it is probably a Courtois stencil from France. It may of even been made by Besson.

You started this whole thing with "I am a rank amateur when it come to brass" and then made the assumption that because the trombone has a mid 20th century counterweight that you found some antique Conn trombone that is collectible and valuable. As pointed out, not a period counterweight, a stencil because Carl Fischer never built their own instruments, they contracted with other manufacturers. Others pointed out the Fiske company built only valve instruments but you won't let that go. Also, let go of the serial number issue, different companies serial numbers do overlap.

You have taken several random bits of information to try to fit a narrative that you want to be true to make this instrument something valuable and won't listen to the "knowledgeable professionals". Anybody can put a Lexus medallion on a Toyota but it doesn't make it a Lexus and more valuable. Still a Toyota.

Yamaha built stencils for Holton/LeBlanc back in the early/mid 80's. The Holton 4 valve euphonium was exactly the same as the Yamaha 321. The Holton shepherds crook cornet was exactly the same as the Yamaha shepherds crook cornet. Finally the LeBlanc student alto sax was exactly the same as the Yamaha student alto sax. Even though these were all made by Yamaha the original sales price and resale price was more for the Yamaha's versus the Holton's.

I say let this rank amateur troll go and not respond to him anymore

Probably even better just delete this whole thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Fischer_Music

History
1870s into the 20th century[edit]
In 1872, Carl Fischer opened his musical instrument repair shop in the East Village neighborhood of New York City. Noticing that many of his customers were searching for instrumental arrangements of well-known works that didn't exist, Fischer began creating and reproducing arrangements, which led him into the music publishing business. Carl Fischer became the pre-eminent publisher of music for concert band composers such as Percy Grainger, John Philip Sousa and the famous transcriptions of Erik W. G. Leidzén and Mayhew Lake.

Carl Fischer also was a musical instrument dealer, and imported wooden flutes made by Emil Rittershausen, Berlin Germany, from the 1890s to 1914. During this early period Carl Fisher was also the sole U.S. agent for Besson instruments, but also imported stenciled brass instruments from Courtois, Alexander, and Bohland & Fuchs.[1] In 1910 Fischer won the importation rights for woodwinds manufactured by Buffet-Crampon of France. In 1929 the C.G. Conn Ltd. corporation acquired the musical instrument department from the company, maintaining the Carl Fischer retail operations as a consortium between Conn and the music publisher under the Carl Fischer name. Instruments from various leading manufacturers of the period were sold under the Carl Fischer house brand.


Walter S. Fischer, son of the founder and President from 1923 to 1946, sits at his desk in the 1940s.
As the company grew and diversified, Fischer's three sons joined the team: Carl, Jr., Walter S. and George. In 1924, Carl Fischer Music was invited to be a member of ASCAP, adding the company's publications to a respected network of artists and composers. The company continued to grow, necessitating the building of Carl Fischer's new headquarters in 1926, located in Cooper Square, Manhattan. This building housed administrative offices and a sprawling retail store.

[Zorkomatic]

And all bets are off regarding whether the serial number is Conn.

Based on what, your opinion and nothing else? Right. Good luck with that. I prefer to deal on facts and data.

[Zorkomatic]

Ok---I'm going to throw this at you. Read way below 2nd paragraph from Wikipedia link and paste excerpt- .

From the article - "During this early period Carl Fisher was also the sole U.S. agent for Besson instruments, but also imported stenciled brass instruments from Courtois, Alexander, and Bohland & Fuchs"

From military engraving of property to the French. Got any more theories?

[jthomas105]

Please get rid of this guy. He is not a trombone player.

[Zorkomatic]

Please get rid of this fool. If this were a Besson the serial number would put it well past the 1940's.

Put some thought into your arguments and they won't get thrown back at you.

[BGuttman]

And all bets are off regarding whether the serial number is Conn.

Based on what, your opinion and nothing else? Right. Good luck with that. I prefer to deal on facts and data.

You yourself suggested that you prefer Occam's explanation for things. Let go of the Conn serial number. This instrument is sold by Carl Fischer. We really don't know who made it, but it's likely not Conn since Conn only started making instruments for Fischer for sure in 1929 and this instrument was delivered in 1917.

There is no Carl Fischer instrument serial list that I have been able to find. And I know of several places to look.

The engraving on the bell clearly indicates a date of around 1917, since the ship was christened as Leviathan in 1917 and this was presented to the Ship's Band. We know that after World War I the ship was sold to another company, refitted, and rechristened. World War I ended (practically) in November, 1918.

Occam's Razor would indicate that the trombone was made around 1917 and presented to the ship on commission as a troop transport. The Conn counterweight you found on it was added later by somebody to make it easier to play.

[Zorkomatic]

You yourself suggested that you prefer Occam's explanation for things. Let go of the Conn serial number. This instrument is sold by Carl Fischer. We really don't know who made it, but it's likely not Conn since Conn only started making instruments for Fischer for sure in 1929 and this instrument was delivered in 1917.

You're confused. 1929 is the year when Conn acquired the music repair business from Fischer, not when Conn started making trombones for them.

There is no Carl Fischer instrument serial list that I have been able to find. And I know of several places to look.

I know, I put that in one of my posts.

Occam's Razor would indicate that the trombone was made around 1917 and presented to the ship on commission as a troop transport.

Except you have nothing to suggest that that's the manufacture date, you're just assuming that from the presentation info on the engraving.

The Conn counterweight you found on it was added later by somebody to make it easier to play.

And I already acknowledged that as well. Conn did not put counterweights on their 1893 trombones.

I'm meeting with the restorer soon. I will find out more then.

[Zorkomatic]

This is what an early 1900's Besson trombone made for Carl Fischer looked like. Nothing like what I have, and it clearly shows who made it. https://www.ebay.com/itm/203805209851

The sole agent for Courtois in the US? J. Howard Foote in Chicago. https://www.ebay.com/itm/203835560629

Alexander made totally different designs. The Bohland & Fuchs had a totally different reinforcement piece on the tuning slide. http://www.horn-u-copia.net/instruments ... ne-784.jpg This one does have a reinforcement piece on the tuning slide that is similar to the one on mine, but the design is different, it is a scalloped piece, the one on mine is much smaller and a simple arc.

Look, I get it that some people like to play the party-poopers, it's part of their nature, but if you don't base your arguments on facts, well, they won't go nowhere. Don't blame me for that. Meeting the restorer tomorrow.

[Doug Elliott]

The "serial number" on the bell doesn't match any other engraving or look like anything a manufacturer would have put on an instrument, so I would suspect it has no relation to the manufacturer.

The best bets for identification are going to be the style of the braces, bell construction details, and the engraving style. There weren't many people who did engraving on instruments and they each had their own style. Once I met a guy who owned a music store on Long Island who collected Conn instruments especially, who was very knowledgeable about the engravers. I don't remember who it was, maybe somebody else knows who I'm talking about.

I have a Conn valve trombone from the very early 1900's and it's not similar at all.

[Zorkomatic]

The "serial number" on the bell doesn't match any other engraving or look like anything a manufacturer would have put on an instrument, so I would suspect it has no relation to the manufacturer.

The best bets for identification are going to be the style of the braces, bell construction details, and the engraving style. There weren't many people who did engraving on instruments and they each had their own style. Once I met a guy who owned a music store on Long Island who collected Conn instruments especially, who was very knowledgeable about the engravers. I don't remember who it was, maybe somebody else knows who I'm talking about.

I have a Conn valve trombone from the very early 1900's and it's not similar at all.

Thank you for the constructive comments. I will certainly keep this in mind when I meet with the restorer, and I will see if I can find this Conn collector in Long Island.

[Doug Elliott]

I found the info.
Laconia Music on Long Island. Ray Noguera
See their Facebook page for lots of historical pictures

[Zorkomatic]

I found the info.
Laconia Music on Long Island. Ray Noguera
See their Facebook page for lots of historical pictures

Thank you! Very kind of you. I just sent him an email with a query and pics. We'll see what he says.

[Posaunus]

This is the craziest thread to hit the trombone community since the demise of The Trombone Forum in March 2018. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are on a fantasy adventure. Think about it:

• Guy (let’s call him Zork) who likes “vintage instruments with a history” finds an old trombone in a flea market.
• Old trombone certainly has a history – it’s engraved right on the bell.
PRESENTED TO
ENGINEERS DEPARTMENT
USS LEVIATHAN
BY THE CONSOLIDATED IRON WORKS
• Aha, says Zork. That means this trombone was “presented” in 1917, when the Leviathan was repurposed in Hoboken by Consolidated Iron Works. Now I’m really interested.
• I don’t know anything else about this (or any other) trombone … but it has a counterweight that says Conn, the letters LP stamped somewhere on the bell, and the number 27197 that is scratched into the bell.
• However the trombone is pretty clearly engraved as an “AMERICAN MODEL,” sold (but not necessarily manufactured) by Carl Fischer in New York.
• Let’s take a wild leap, Zork says to himself, and conclude that this is a “Conn LP” trombone (though the name Conn never appears on the instrument) with a Conn serial number of 27197. It matters not that this trombone doesn’t really look too much like Conn trombones of the early 1900s.
• Zork finds a dubious Serial Number list and concludes that the 27197 is a Conn serial number indicating the trombone was manufactured in 1893 (24 years before the Leviathan commissioning). It matters little that this trombone doesn’t look much like Conn trombones from either 1893 or 1917. Zork’s never seen one anyway.
• Zork discovers TromboneChat, and knows that these trombone nerds can help him authenticate its provenance and justify its value and its restoration.
• Unfortunately, the trombone nerds are a bit skeptical, driving Zork farther and farther into speculative (and evidence-free) fantasies about who made this trombone and where and when.
• Backed into a corner, Zork gets more and more defensive, relying on his keen legal skills to build a house-of-cards case that this is clearly a Conn trombone of great value, and worth restoring to its former glory.

Is it time for this thread to quietly and humanely be terminated?

[Zorkomatic]

Is it time for this thread to quietly and humanely be terminated?

Only if you are terrified of being proven wrong. That "dubious" serial number list? It's on the Conn-Selmer web site, kiddo.

[CharlieB]

We might consider that it doesn't matter when, or where, or by whom this trombone was made. What Zorkomatic has here is a piece of history.

The trombone was not presented to the ship's band. It was presented to the engineering group employed by the company that retrofitted the Leviathan (ship) in the U.S. after its confiscation from the Germans.
I have been trying to wrap my mind around why an old trombone would be presented to an engineering group as an award. "Good job boys. You deserve an award. Here's an old trombone instead of a silver plaque or a trophy." ??????
O.K., so maybe it was a brand new 1917 trombone. Nah. A trombone as an engineering award still makes no sense.

What does sound feasible is that those who refitted the ship in the U.S. after its confiscation from the Germans would be presented by their employer with a memento from the ship's past. The Leviathan was an important "hero ship" during WW-1. It was a U.S. seized German luxury cruiser that was repurposed by the U.S. as a troop ship. When the Leviathan was a luxury cruiser, the she had an onboard orchestra. It seems probable that a trombone was left on the ship when she was seized. That would make the trombone much more interesting as a collectable than knowing who made the horn. Any memorabilia that can be associated with the Leviathan is an important piece of history. It's probably impossible to prove that the trombone was actually on the ship, but the fact that "Leviathan" is engraved on the bell proves a connection.
Read about the Leviathan here:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/59699/5 ... 9699-h.htm

[Zorkomatic]

We might consider that it doesn't matter when, or where, or by whom this trombone was made. What Zorkomatic has here is a piece of history.

The trombone was not presented to the ship's band. It was presented to the engineering group employed by the company that retrofitted the Leviathan (ship) in the U.S. after its confiscation from the Germans.
I have been trying to wrap my mind around why an old trombone would be presented to an engineering group as an award. "Good job boys. You deserve an award. Here's an old trombone instead of a silver plaque or a trophy." ??????
O.K., so maybe it was a brand new 1917 trombone. Nah. A trombone as an engineering award still makes no sense.

What does sound feasible is that those who refitted the ship in the U.S. after its confiscation from the Germans would be presented by their employer with a memento from the ship's past. The Leviathan was an important "hero ship" during WW-1. It was a U.S. seized German luxury cruiser that was repurposed by the U.S. as a troop ship. When the Leviathan was a luxury cruiser, the she had an onboard orchestra. It seems probable that a trombone was left on the ship when she was seized. That would make the trombone much more interesting as a collectable than knowing who made the horn. Any memorabilia that can be associated with the Leviathan is an important piece of history. It's probably impossible to prove that the trombone was actually on the ship, but the fact that "Leviathan" is engraved on the bell proves a connection.
Read about the Leviathan here:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/59699/5 ... 9699-h.htm

Interesting ideas!

I think Andrew Fletcher presented them with the trombone because the engineering department staff worked very hard to help Consolidated finish the repair and upgrade work on the Leviathan. When it was the SS Vaterland, the existing boilers were a nightmare to operate and maintain. Consolidated put in the winning bid to do the work, but if it hadn't been for the engineering staff assigned to the ship, it might have taken a lot longer than it did.

But then I have to admit I am faced with the same question as you. Why a trombone?? I think it wasn't just one trombone, I think it was two, and I think they were gifted because the engineering department wanted to form a ship's band to entertain the doughboys during the voyages to/from Europe, and the management at Consolidated got wind of it and decide to gift them some of the instruments. That link to Project Gutenberg actually has a picture of the band about 3/4's of the way down, on page 201. It shows two trombones and they look similar to what I have, but the picture is not nearly of good enough quality to attempt a match.

However, I am not so sure about the theory that the instrument belonged to the German band on the Vaterland before it was seized. The crew was allowed to take their personal belongings after the seizure and I would be surprised if the musicians had left their instruments behind. I also read that the US govt stripped the ship bare of literally everything but one very large painting that wound up in a hotel. Everything else, down to the last schnitzel plate, was carted off for destruction. The Germans were pissed about that. It's in that book too. There was also a congressional hearing where folks in the ship refitting and repair industry, including Fletcher, discussed the challenges of bidding on the contract, and that they were going to have to hire many contractors to do specialized work for the interior of the ship.

Yes, I agree with you that the history of all this is fascinating, and that is my primary motivation for the restoration and establishment of provenance.

[Posaunus]

Is it time for this thread to quietly and humanely be terminated?

Only if you are terrified of being proven wrong. That "dubious" serial number list? It's on the Conn-Selmer web site, kiddo.

Kiddo here. The "official" Conn serial number list is irrelevant, since the 27197 is almost surely not a serial number but some sort of inventory number. It's very unlikely that this trombone was made in 1893. And the trombone was probably not made by Conn or its subsidiaries. The only thing Conn about this trombone was the unrelated modern counterweight added decades after its manufacture, which was what got you off onto the Conn track.

And by the way, it's a pretty interesting fantasy to imagine that the German orchestra members were playing Carl Fisher "American Model" trombones at the beginning of World War I.

At any rate, why just a single gift trombone? Perhaps we can speculate (Who needs evidence?) that Consolidated Iron Works went shopping at Carl Fischer in 1917, and had them custom-engrave an entire orchestra's worth of instruments as gifts for the Leviathan's orchestra to entertain the troops being ferried to Europe. We should search the flea markets for all those other instruments. Hollywood could make a movie out of that idea!

[Doug Elliott]

Maybe giving them a trombone was somebody's idea of a joke...

In that article there's an interesting accounting of the Influenza epidemic of 1918 onboard the ship.

[LeTromboniste]

Is it time for this thread to quietly and humanely be terminated?

Only if you are terrified of being proven wrong. That "dubious" serial number list? It's on the Conn-Selmer web site, kiddo.

I know this will probably fall on deaf ears but in the odd chance you might still be able to question your assumptions and biases:

Your list is of course good... for Conn instruments!!. The point is you have no evidence whatsoever that Conn made it, nothing on the instrument even hints at that. And even if Conn did make it, you have no way to know that the serial number on it is from Conn and not from Carl Fischer. So why should the Conn list help you date the instrument? Before you even begin to care about serial numbers you need to know the maker, and with stencil instruments like this, there is generally no way of knowing for sure, if at all.

As others point out, we can't even say for sure that it is a serial number. That is a common placement for inventory numbers to be engraved on service instruments. I'm leaning towards it is a serial number, but applied by or for Carl Fischer, because looking through Horn-U-Copia one does see quite a few Carl Fischer instruments with a number engraved there (then again some seem not to have the number). And then you see this

Same basic engraving, same serial number placement, but certainly not made by Conn. According to the entry, this horn is stamped "Czechoslovakia". There is also a cornet, with similar engraving, "American Model", stamped "Austria". Probably several more examples if you go through the collection there.

My opinion, as someone who has played several, and owns a Conn trombone from that era (and a number of other antique trombones, two of them from the 1890s) is that there is no way this is a Conn serial number, and you should not rely on the Conn list to date the instruments. That Conn made this instrument is not impossible, but it is not very probable. Most likely, given what we know about the stencil instrument industry of the time, this was made in central/eastern Europe, or assembled in the US from imported parts. It may also have been made by a US maker entirely. Several details are wrong for it to be a Conn though. The turnings (or lack thereof) on the ferrules and braces don't match, and neither does the water key style or placement.

So you have a Carl Fischer instrument made by an unknown maker, most likely early-20th century. I doubt you'll ever be able to narrow it down much further.

Note that even restored, its resale value will be minimal as instruments that size and from that time just are not in demand at all, even when made by an identifiable and reputable maker and in very good condition (which this is not). You'll spend more restoring it than you could sell it for. As a comparison point, I have a Courtois from between 1889 and 1894, which I bought for about $140, with a likely original or contemporary case and mouthpiece. I have a 1913 Conn, in very good condition, silver plated with gold trim and wash, and with elaborate two-tone bell engraving, got it for about 250$. The history of your instrument is somewhat interesting but a bit too trivial to really add any value.

[Zorkomatic]

Only if you are terrified of being proven wrong. That "dubious" serial number list? It's on the Conn-Selmer web site, kiddo.

Kiddo here. The "official" Conn serial number list is irrelevant, since the 27197 is almost surely not a serial number but some sort of inventory number. It's very unlikely that this trombone was made in 1893. And the trombone was probably not made by Conn or its subsidiaries. The only thing Conn about this trombone was the unrelated modern counterweight added decades after its manufacture, which was what got you off onto the Conn track.

And by the way, it's a pretty interesting fantasy to imagine that the German orchestra members were playing Carl Fisher "American Model" trombones at the beginning of World War I.

At any rate, why just a single gift trombone? Perhaps we can speculate (Who needs evidence?) that Consolidated Iron Works went shopping at Carl Fischer in 1917, and had them custom-engrave an entire orchestra's worth of instruments as gifts for the Leviathan's orchestra to entertain the troops being ferried to Europe. We should search the flea markets for all those other instruments. Hollywood could make a movie out of that idea!

We've got ourselves a two-bit confused comedian.

[Zorkomatic]

Maybe giving them a trombone was somebody's idea of a joke...

In that article there's an interesting accounting of the Influenza epidemic of 1918 onboard the ship.

Yes. They called it the Death Ship.

[Bart]

Carl was a pretty prolific dude. This is an example of a beautiful horn that he sold out of his New York store, engraved with his name as the sole agent for the manufacturer in "Amerika" and Canada. http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/Schmidt_060/

I think you answered your own question about the serial number in the link you provided (and in a link in that article).

"The U.S. importer, Carl Fischer, assigned serial numbers to the musical instruments it sold."

Looking at the serial numbers on this page, linked in the above article: http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/schmidt/cfschmidt.html
Nr. 29366 is estimated around 1916, which makes it very likely your trombone was manufactured around that time as well. Makes sense to me. Also look at the style of engraving, looks quite similar to the engraving of the number on your trombone.

As a sidenote: I'm no expert, but the trombone does not look like a Conn to me. Sorry.

[Zorkomatic]

Carl was a pretty prolific dude. This is an example of a beautiful horn that he sold out of his New York store, engraved with his name as the sole agent for the manufacturer in "Amerika" and Canada. http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/Schmidt_060/

I think you answered your own question about the serial number in the link you provided (and in a link in that article).

"The U.S. importer, Carl Fischer, assigned serial numbers to the musical instruments it sold."

Looking at the serial numbers on this page, linked in the above article: http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/schmidt/cfschmidt.html
Nr. 29366 is estimated around 1916, which makes it very likely your trombone was manufactured around that time as well. Makes sense to me. Also look at the style of engraving, looks quite similar to the engraving of the number on your trombone.

As a sidenote: I'm no expert, but the trombone does not look like a Conn to me. Sorry.

Interesting. Did CF Schmidt produce trombones? That article is about his double horns. I looked again on mine and there is no "Amerika" on it.

[Bart]

The article lists serial numbers added by Carl Fischer to the instruments. And judging by the numbers, those serial numbers weren't only used on double horns. That would be a lot of double horns.

"Amerika", the German variant of America, was not added by Carl Fischer and doesn't need to be on your trombone. I was only talking about the serial numbers that were added later, as you can clearly see from the style of engraving. Compare that to the pictures on horn-u-copia (and your own trombone) and you can see that they're very similar and very likely the serial numbers that Carl Fischer engraved on the instruments.

Do with it what you like, but this seems the most reasonable and easy explanation about the serial number: added by Carl Fischer, engraved by his company around 1916 (and most likely manufactured around that time as well). I know that's not the answer you want to hear, but I see enough evidence that this is however the most likely scenario.

[Zorkomatic]

I agree that it could be an explanation, but there is sufficient divergence to suggest the opposite as well. What answer you think i want to hear is not relevant. Off to the restorer.

[LeTromboniste]

I agree that it could be an explanation, but there is sufficient divergence to suggest the opposite as well. What answer you think i want to hear is not relevant. Off to the restorer.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the serial number was added by the manufacturer, nor that it is a Conn serial number.

[Zorkomatic]

I agree that it could be an explanation, but there is sufficient divergence to suggest the opposite as well. What answer you think i want to hear is not relevant. Off to the restorer.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the serial number was added by the manufacturer, nor that it is a Conn serial number.

There is no documented evidence it is a Carl Fischer or military inventory number either, they're just theories as well. Give it a rest.

I'm still working on additional research.

• Carl Fischer company has no records of anything related to individual sales or purchases that far back in time.

• Hagley Museum in Rhode Island has no records of anything that far back in time in any of the Fletcher archives.

• South Street Seaport Museum in NY has no records of anything related to Carl Fischer in the W.A. Fletcher Co. archives.

• Conn doesn't keep any historical archives that far back either for anything Conn made back then, other than the serial number databases and some small pieces of info, and I think they just destroyed everything else. Pity. Sales records before 1910 would have likely gone up in smoke in the 1910 second factory fire.

• I'm still looking for the Fiske factory records, but cannot find a museum or history archive in Worcester that might have them. It's possible Conn took them back to Elkhart when he closed the plant.

• The restorer I hired to fix the major problems on the piece is not a trombone expert, he's more of a saxophone expert. He has no opinion on the manufacturer but recommended I leave the patina as is; no re-plating or replacement of the lacquer because it might obscure the engraving, which constitutes the bulk of any historical value of the piece.

And I think someone mentioned money. The simple truth is that I don't give two bowel movements what this might be worth, before or after restoration. This is just one of many things I have restored over a period of decades, from documents to a wooden sailplane I shipped to Germany and back and flew several times from an old Soviet emergency field in eastern Germany, and I never, ever get back even close to what I put into these projects. That is simply not the point. The pleasure of seeing history come back to life is.

[BGuttman]

Note: It is very unlikely that there ever was lacquer on this instrument. Lacquer coating dates back to the development of the spray coater in the late 1920s or early 1930s -- well after the build date of this trombone.

Most likely surface treatment is called "chromating", which will act as an oxidation preventative. That is the surface on my 1892 tuba and it shows no evidence of oxidation, even though I never polished it. Chromating uses something called hexavalent chromium to create a new surface on the brass. Given the toxicity of hexavalent chromium and the severe pollution regulation, chromating is now out of the question as a surface treatment. Now we use either a lacquer coat or plated silver (or both).

I like the 1916 build date estimate. It's logical given the 1917 donation implied by the engraving.

[Zorkomatic]

Note: It is very unlikely that there ever was lacquer on this instrument. Lacquer coating dates back to the development of the spray coater in the late 1920s or early 1930s -- well after the build date of this trombone.

Most likely surface treatment is called "chromating", which will act as an oxidation preventative. That is the surface on my 1892 tuba and it shows no evidence of oxidation, even though I never polished it. Chromating uses something called hexavalent chromium to create a new surface on the brass. Given the toxicity of hexavalent chromium and the severe pollution regulation, chromating is now out of the question as a surface treatment. Now we use either a lacquer coat or plated silver (or both).

I like the 1916 build date estimate. It's logical given the 1917 donation implied by the engraving.

I'm just repeating what the restorer told me, that it is definitely lacquered.

[mrpillow]

For what it's worth, the largest repository of surviving Conn archives and records, and historic instruments, are housed at the National Music Museum in Vermillion, South Dakota Based on the years I've spent working with this material, I can guesstimate with a fairly comfortable 99.8% certainty that the instrument was not made by Conn, nor is the serial number a Conn serial number.

For what it's also worth, we're unfortunately far too occupied at the moment to address a research inquiry of this nature.

Maybe a back-burner visit for your future?

[Zorkomatic]

For what it's worth, the largest repository of surviving Conn archives and records, and historic instruments, are housed at the National Music Museum in Vermillion, South Dakota Based on the years I've spent working with this material, I can guesstimate with a fairly comfortable 99.8% certainty that the instrument was not made by Conn, nor is the serial number a Conn serial number.

For what it's also worth, we're unfortunately far too occupied at the moment to address a research inquiry of this nature.

Maybe a back-burner visit for your future?

I would love to come visit! I just finished chatting with a representative of Carl Fischer's. Apparently they destroyed all the old records. Doesn't make any sense, such shortsightedness.

Do the records in SD also include those of the Fiske facility?

[Posaunus]

Apparently still determined (in spite of evidence and expert testimony to the contrary) to prove that the trombone is a Conn - based only on a 1970s counterweight added decades after its manufacture. Now that's persistence!

[Zorkomatic]

Apparently still determined (in spite of evidence and expert testimony to the contrary) to prove that the trombone is a Conn - based only on a 1970s counterweight added decades after its manufacture. Now that's persistence!

Way to go, Captain Obvious.

[teachyteach]

I'm just repeating what the restorer told me, that it is definitely lacquered.
[/quote]

The trombone is clearly raw brass. Lacquered horns do not look like that.
If your restorer takes a look at that horn and says it is currently lacquered, well, I would not trust them to repair an old bundy.

FWIW, trombone does not look very conn-like to me, especially not for the era. Bracings do not look right and the engraving looks much to lightly applied and not-conn like. Even on very old conn stencils I have seen the engraving looks different. If you really want an old Conn, you can pick up a 4H for pretty cheap on ebay and compare the differences in person.

[Zorkomatic]

The trombone is clearly raw brass. Lacquered horns do not look like that.
If your restorer takes a look at that horn and says it is currently lacquered, well, I would not trust them to repair an old bundy.

FWIW, trombone does not look very conn-like to me, especially not for the era. Bracings do not look right and the engraving looks much to lightly applied and not-conn like. Even on very old conn stencils I have seen the engraving looks different. If you really want an old Conn, you can pick up a 4H for pretty cheap on ebay and compare the differences in person.

But any old Conn would not be as historically valuable as this one. Except maybe the other one that was given to the band? It's so disappointing that so many of you simply don't get it.

[BGuttman]

We get it. The horn has a very interesting history. It's just probably not a Conn, and was not made in 1893. I still like the 1916 date somebody else figured out. It would have to be an American maker since Europe was heavily involved in World War I at the time and shipments from any of the instrument making areas might be difficult to receive.

There are a few other makers in the US that might be considered. Harry Pedlar was one. I'm not sure if Emil Blessing had started his shop by that time, but he made a lot of stencils. Also consider Buescher.

Another seller like Carl Fischer was J. W. Pepper in Philadelphia. Pepper is still in business, but as a sheet music seller. If you had a Pepper sold horn it would have been marked as such.

[Zorkomatic]

We get it. The horn has a very interesting history. It's just probably not a Conn, and was not made in 1893. I still like the 1916 date somebody else figured out. It would have to be an American maker since Europe was heavily involved in World War I at the time and shipments from any of the instrument making areas might be difficult to receive.

There are a few other makers in the US that might be considered. Harry Pedlar was one. I'm not sure if Emil Blessing had started his shop by that time, but he made a lot of stencils. Also consider Buescher.

Another seller like Carl Fischer was J. W. Pepper in Philadelphia. Pepper is still in business, but as a sheet music seller. If you had a Pepper sold horn it would have been marked as such.

Nah, you seem to get it. Not "we." But it's ok, every forum has their share of wannabe party-poopers who pretend they know what they are talking about and... well, they really try to do a good job at whatever it is they think they do, but they just can't pull it off, bless their hearts. I've been doing forums since before there was an internet or Compuserve/GEnie, etc. and there was just something called Fido and a bunch of geeks running a network from their home PC's using dial-up. Some things just don't change.

[elmsandr]

So, what is your point here then?

To try to get us to agree with whatever genius theory you have? Or just to insult people that are actually trying to help you identify a fascinating, if not valuable, instrument?

Thank you for the nice pictures, feel free to upload some when you have it restored. Beyond that, you are acting more like a troll than a contributor to the community here.

Cheers,
Andy

[Zorkomatic]

So, what is your point here then?

LOL! I didn't think I'd get such a great example to make my point so quickly. Standard answer, Andy: You'll get over it.

[harrisonreed]

I have Geschaltz's original trombone. Prove me wrong!

[Zorkomatic]

I have Geschaltz's original trombone. Prove me wrong!

He lived a stencil life. No proof he ever existed, but he was copied like a xerox.

[Burgerbob]

So, what is your point here then?

LOL! I didn't think I'd get such a great example to make my point so quickly. Standard answer, Andy: You'll get over it.

This is a straight up troll answer. Again... what is your point? You have a pretty neat stencil horn with a Conn counterweight. It doesn't need to be a Conn. Even if it was, it wouldn't be worth much of anything.