Conn "LP"?

[Zorkomatic]

Hello!

I am a rank amateur when it comes to brass, but I like to restore vintage instruments with a history. I currently have a 1962 EK Blessing trumpet, and a rare German Einheits bandoneon with three sets of reeds instead of two.

I recently picked up a Conn trombone at a flea market in restorable condition with a very interesting background. It says it is a Carl Fischer's American Model, New York, has a serial number under the model info. on the bell it says that it was given to the USS Leviathan's Engineering Department by the Consolidated Iron Works. This is the Hoboken company owned by Andrew Fletcher that worked on the huge vessel's boilers after it was confiscated from the Germans in 1917 (they called it the SS Vaterland) by the US government when war was declared at the beginning of WW1. The vessel then became the USS Leviathan troop carrier and ferried some 100k doughboys to and from Europe. It had a band that was pretty good and recorded music for Victor Records, mostly fox trot tunes. Later on United States Lines bought it and turned it back into a luxurious transatlantic ship.

This instrument has a serial number, 27197, just below the engraved model info, where the bell joins the pipe. I thought the instrument was contemporary to the date the ship made its first voyage after being refurbished into a troop carrier, but that serial number puts it around 1893 (!!). Is this accurate?

I have a picture of the trombone player with the band from an old sheet music for a song they played, but I would love to have a name if anyone knows where to find it.

[Doug Elliott]

LP means low pitch. There used to be two pitch standards, low pitch and high pitch and they were not compatible with each other so companies made both. LP is compatible with current pitch, so that's good.

The serial number lists online are as accurate as you're going to find.

[Zorkomatic]

Wow. This floors me, to find such a historical 19th century instrument in relatively good condition at a flea market. I am going to send it out to a specialist for restoration. Thanks!

[Digidog]

Wow. This floors me, to find such a historical 19th century instrument in relatively good condition at a flea market. I am going to send it out to a specialist for restoration. Thanks!

Please let us see pictures of the final result!

This is a cool story, and the instrument too - so I'm eager to see and hear more about where the story ends.

[Zorkomatic]

I am going to try to link pics of its current state.

Hmm. There's no upload feature. I'll try as urls. Ah, that works. Here you go. Enjoy






The case on the floor to the left is the original case of the EK Blessing trumpet. Not sure it is worth restoring, but I will try.

[Kingfan]

Wow!

[Kingfan]

Wow! Great find!

[Posaunus]

I think that the only thing "Conn" about this trombone is the modern counterweight, which is certainly not original to the instrument. The bell is clearly engraved Carl Fischer, for whom I think it is unlikely that Conn made trombones. Is there any other engraving which could identify it as a Conn product? If not, a Conn serial number list is probably irrelevant.

In any case, it would be great to know more about the history of this instrument. Good luck on the restoration.

[Zorkomatic]

Could be, I am not a recognized expert on these instruments. However, I have done my homework. You can be the judge of my findings.

I do know that Carl Fischer was a contemporary of Conn who opened a musical instrument repair shop in 1872 in New York's East Village. Charles Conn started making his rubber covered mouthpieces in 1873. In 1929, six years after Carl passed away, C.G. Conn Ltd. acquired the musical instrument department of the company from his son Walter, maintaining the Carl Fischer retail operations as a consortium between Conn and the music publisher under the Carl Fischer name. Instruments from various leading manufacturers of the period were sold under the Carl Fischer house brand. That implies that they already had a business relationship that ended up in an acquisition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Fisc ... th_century

So, Carl Fischer was not an instrument manufacturer, he just did the same smart thing that happened with my German bandoneon, which has a house brand name on the outside but on the inside is clearly marked "ELA" for Ernest Louis Arnold, the brother of Albert Arnold of "AA" bandoneon worldwide fame, who took over the factory after Albert retired. Nothing new under the sun when it comes to these business arrangements.

Fischer had the trombones made by Conn (as well as likely other horns) and then sold them under his house brand name from his store in New York. That makes it a Conn instrument in my book. I doubt very much that there would be any attempt to deceive by installing a counterweight that did not belong to the instrument. The counterweights have not changed much over time, you can still get them in chrome with raised lettering, and changing it because of deterioration with another of the same design is no different than replacing other parts with period parts (known as NOS or New Old Stock) on instruments that need repair. Ockham's Razor applies here, IMO.

In addition, it makes sense for Andrew Fletcher to have picked an 1893 Conn trombone to give to the ship's band. By 1893 Conn's instruments were awarded the highest honors in the World’s Columbia Exposition in Chicago. The contract for the refurbishing and rebuilding of the USS Leviathan's German boilers, which had significant design problems and caused the engineers no end of grief, was very, very lucrative for Mr. Fletcher, and it would have been a huge insult for him to gift a cheap, no-name instrument. Such an insult would eventually come back to bite him if just one newspaper got wind of it.

Why a Carl Fischer-branded instrument? Because the Consolidated Iron Works was located in Hoboken. I attended college at Stevens Institute of Technology, when Hoboken was free of the yuppie infestation. Hoboken is right across the Hudson, and you could scream and someone would hear you in Manhattan. The PATH train, opened in 1908, could take you there in a few minutes, and it was an easy 15 minute, five-and-a-half block stroll from the station on 9th Street to Fischer's store on Cooper Square. Again, Ockham's Razor.

I rest my case, your honor.

[Posaunus]

Thanks for that great history lesson. I stand corrected.

Is there any marking on the trombone itself that links it to Conn?

The counterweight is NOT authentic to that era, though. In fact, I believe trombones of that time were not generally equipped with counterweights. Early Conn counterweights looked nothing like the more modern one attached to this antique instrument.

Please post photos of this interesting trombone after its restoration.

[Zorkomatic]

You got me thinking about the counterweight, so I decided to find out if Conn sold the 1893 trombones with counterweights. I tried finding a vintage counterweight of around that time and there seem to be none for sale. Then I put myself to finding documentation for this, and I found Conn's catalog from 1893. It turns out they were not sold with counterweights. Someone put that on there for convenience.

[Burgerbob]

That's a relatively "modern" Conn weight, Elkhart or later.

[Zorkomatic]

Thanks for that great history lesson. I stand corrected.

Is there any marking on the trombone itself that links it to Conn?

The counterweight is NOT authentic to that era, though. In fact, I believe trombones of that time were not generally equipped with counterweights. Early Conn counterweights looked nothing like the more modern one attached to this antique instrument.

Please post photos of this interesting trombone after its restoration.

Looks we crossposted. You are correct, they were not originally sold with counterweights at that time. I may remove the counterweight for historical accuracy but keep it in case in case it does need it from a functional point of view. At least whomever put it on there was careful enough to pick one with the correct name!

As to markings, I'm still looking. My eyes are not what they used to be but I broke out a magnifying class and it's being put to good use (other than for elimination of pest crawling insects, that is...)

[Zorkomatic]

That's a relatively "modern" Conn weight, Elkhart or later.

It sure is.

[imsevimse]

This looks like it is a stencil. How do you know it's made in 1893? How can you be sure the serial number is a Conn serial number? I'm not saying you are wrong but stencils can be a bit of a mystery. The close connection between Carl Fisher and Conn might explain that but it is news to me. Interesting!

I thought of writing what's been written here already from memory, because I know I have read about Carl Fisher instruments before (probably at the old forum) and it was nice to have all that information to read again, but the connection with Conn was a new thing to me.

The typical way of identifying who can have made a stencil is to look for characteristic parts that can be identified as typical Conn or Martin parts for example. You can not really brand a stencil usually. It stops with likely to be made of them or that. I have a very interesting stencil myself with the name "Commadore" which was the brand of a shop own by William Tonk. Some parts of that horn really looks like Martin. Good .500 horn but not worth more than the metal-value I guess.

/Tom

[Zorkomatic]

This looks like it is a stencil. How do you know it's made in 1893? How can you be sure the serial number is a Conn serial number? I'm not saying you are wrong but stencils can be a bit of a mystery. The close connection between Carl Fisher and Conn might explain that but it is news to me. Interesting!

The evidence i have strongly supports that it is authentic. You can see the pictures. If you can see something on it that supports your theory, I am all ears, but so far, I don't buy this theory.

[LeTromboniste]

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but I don't really see any reason to assume it's a Conn. It's not at all unlikely that it is, but even with the relationship with Conn, which is much later on, or if we assume they already had one at the time, they could have had their instruments made by any number of maker (and likely more than one). For whatever it's worth, the same Wikipedia article you quote also says that Carl Fischer imported stencil instruments from various European makers (you may want to look at the cited source, that book might have more detailed information on which makers' brass instruments they sold under their name and when), and even after the Conn acquisition of the instruments department, still sold instruments from various makers under their own brand name...Even if it was made by Conn, there is no reason to assume they used the same serial number series for stencil instruments as they did for "proper" Conn, so the serial can't be reliably used for dating the instrument using Conn lists. Most likely, Fisher had their own serial number sequence that they engraved themselves on stencil instruments.

For instance, I haven't seen a Conn with a serial number engraved on the bell like that (but it's very typical for Carl Fischer-branded instruments). On Conn trombones it's usually stamped near the slide receiver. Does your instrument have a union labeled stamped on it? That can also help date it. What are the bore and bell size?

Like Tom said, with stencil instruments, one usually can only say "possibly made by", there is rarely any certainty, unless we know the retailer in question bought instruments only from one particular maker (which is not the case here, and rarely is).

[Zorkomatic]

Another piece of the puzzle. The "American Model" designation on the engraving was likely not a Carl Fischer thing. Conn used that designation across his entire model line in 1893 to distinguish himself from his European competition. You can see that across several items the 1893 catalog. https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/414 The dimensions also match, 41" from bend of bell to the water key, 6.25' diameter horn. The location of the water key matches as well. There is one small feature that I don't know if it's unique to Conn trombones or common in others. The end of the slide tube has a little fin on it, to give the bend more strength. Is this common in trombones?

The only difference I see if that the catalog drawing has fancy engraving on it. It would have made sense for Fischer to order them without that to save money and maximize profit margins.

Carl was a pretty prolific dude. This is an example of a beautiful horn that he sold out of his New York store, engraved with his name as the sole agent for the manufacturer in "Amerika" and Canada. http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/Schmidt_060/

What was copied was Conn's cushioned mouthpieces, but that was long after Conn's patent had expired. https://www.brasshistory.net/MuckMpc.html

[Zorkomatic]

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but I don't really see any reason to assume it's a Conn. It's not at all unlikely that it is, but even with the relationship with Conn, which is much later on, or if we assume they already had one at the time, they could have had their instruments made by any number of maker (and likely more than one). For whatever it's worth, the same Wikipedia article you quote also says that Carl Fischer imported stencil instruments from various European makers (you may want to look at the cited source, that book might have more detailed information on which makers' brass instruments they sold under their name and when), and even after the Conn acquisition of the instruments department, still sold instruments from various makers under their own brand name...Even if it was made by Conn, there is no reason to assume they used the same serial number series for stencil instruments as they did for "proper" Conn, so the serial can't be reliably used for dating the instrument using Conn lists. Most likely, Fisher had their own serial number sequence that they engraved themselves on stencil instruments.

For instance, I haven't seen a Conn with a serial number engraved on the bell like that (but it's very typical for Carl Fischer-branded instruments). On Conn trombones it's usually stamped near the slide receiver. Does your instrument have a union labeled stamped on it? That can also help date it. What are the bore and bell size?

Like Tom said, with stencil instruments, one usually can only say "possibly made by", there is rarely any certainty, unless we know the retailer in question bought instruments only from one particular maker (which is not the case here, and rarely is).

Like I said, if there is evidence that this instrument is a stencil, I'm all ears. So far there's theories, but nothing concrete to base them on when it comes to this instrument. I am very skeptical that Fischer would risk the wrath of Fletcher by selling him an instrument that says "American Model" but was actually made by a European company. There's no logic in that and IMO is a huge stretch.

As to the serial number, several people who own vintage Conn trombones have already confirmed to me that the location is correct. Bell size is correct, 6.25" for Conn's small bell. The outer slide bore is 0.505". The inner slide bore is 0.425".

[BGuttman]

You might want to check out the Conn Loyalist pages (https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/index.html) where there is a lot of information about Conn instruments. Note that the Conn serial numbers include Pan American and Wurlitzer but I don't see any reference to Carl Fischer. You could check out Margaret Downey Banks' excellent history of the Conn company (also referenced on that site).

There is a nice history of Carl Fischer as an instrument manufacturer in a book by Richard Dundas called something like "American Brass Instrument Manufacturers".

Incidentally, I went to college across the street from Carl Fischer. At that time they weren't making or selling musical instruments; just sheet music. But they had an enormous tuba (BBBb) in the window of the building.

If you go to Horn-U-Copia there is a picture of a Carl Fischer American Model on this page: https://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?s ... Fischer%22 . There is actually a "Reliable" model that looks more like yours than their American model. The Reliable serial number is similar to yours. Too bad there is no year on it.

[Zorkomatic]

I checked the Conn Loyalist site but I can't find any mention of Fischer selling stencil trombones in the late 19th or very early 20th century. Other kinds of brass instruments, yes, but not trombones. Anybody got any links to examples of stencil trombones from 1890's to 1917?

[LeTromboniste]

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but I don't really see any reason to assume it's a Conn. It's not at all unlikely that it is, but even with the relationship with Conn, which is much later on, or if we assume they already had one at the time, they could have had their instruments made by any number of maker (and likely more than one). For whatever it's worth, the same Wikipedia article you quote also says that Carl Fischer imported stencil instruments from various European makers (you may want to look at the cited source, that book might have more detailed information on which makers' brass instruments they sold under their name and when), and even after the Conn acquisition of the instruments department, still sold instruments from various makers under their own brand name...Even if it was made by Conn, there is no reason to assume they used the same serial number series for stencil instruments as they did for "proper" Conn, so the serial can't be reliably used for dating the instrument using Conn lists. Most likely, Fisher had their own serial number sequence that they engraved themselves on stencil instruments.

For instance, I haven't seen a Conn with a serial number engraved on the bell like that (but it's very typical for Carl Fischer-branded instruments). On Conn trombones it's usually stamped near the slide receiver. Does your instrument have a union labeled stamped on it? That can also help date it. What are the bore and bell size?

Like Tom said, with stencil instruments, one usually can only say "possibly made by", there is rarely any certainty, unless we know the retailer in question bought instruments only from one particular maker (which is not the case here, and rarely is).

Like I said, if there is evidence that this instrument is a stencil, I'm all ears. So far there's theories, but nothing concrete to base them on when it comes to this instrument. I am very skeptical that Fischer would risk the wrath of Fletcher by selling him an instrument that says "American Model" but was actually made by a European company. There's no logic in that and IMO is a huge stretch.

As to the serial number, several people who own vintage Conn trombones have already confirmed to me that the location is correct. Bell size is correct, 6.25" for Conn's small bell. The outer slide bore is 0.505". The inner slide bore is 0.425".

Well by definition, if the instrument is built by a different, unmarked maker, and marked with the seller's brand, it IS a stencil instrument. If it's made by Conn (which as I said, might very well be the case), it's still a stencil.

Those dimensions were very standard at the time, so it's not saying that much. I own and have played a number of vintage Conns, none of which had a serial hand-engraved on the bell flare (granted, those were somewhat later, 1910s and 20s instruments, but I did see and try a Conn from the 1880s that was the earlier, very different more Germanic style, and I don't remember it having a serial on the bell flare). On the other end Carl Fisher instruments seem to often have that serial number placement.

A quick look on Horn-U-Copia yields several Carl Fisher instruments with stamps from European countries, by the way, including some of the "American Model" ones.

[Zorkomatic]

If you go to Horn-U-Copia there is a picture of a Carl Fischer American Model on this page: https://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?s ... Fischer%22 . There is actually a "Reliable" model that looks more like yours than their American model. The Reliable serial number is similar to yours. Too bad there is no year on it.

Hmm. The serial number for the Reliable entry places it three years later than the American Model. And the pictures are awful, I really wish they had more detail. I am intrigued by the different placements of the water valve on the slide. It's almost as if someone was experimenting with how to place them.

[LeTromboniste]

Where's the water key on yours?

I suspect water key placement is indicative of different vintages of the Fisher instruments being supplied by different makers, more than of variation within a single maker's output.

Your trombone doesn't match the bracing style depicted in the 1893 catalog, but it is after all a drawing some I'm wary of giving too much importance to details.

[LeTromboniste]

If you go to Horn-U-Copia there is a picture of a Carl Fischer American Model on this page: https://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?s ... Fischer%22 . There is actually a "Reliable" model that looks more like yours than their American model. The Reliable serial number is similar to yours. Too bad there is no year on it.

The serial number for the Reliable entry places it three years later than the American Model.

Which again is assuming all the instruments were made by Conn AND that the serial numbers follow Conn's own sequence, which is far from a given.

[Zorkomatic]

Well by definition, if the instrument is built by a different, unmarked maker, and marked with the seller's brand, it IS a stencil instrument. If it's made by Conn (which as I said, might very well be the case), it's still a stencil.

Those dimensions were very standard at the time, so it's not saying that much. I own and have played a number of vintage Conns, none of which had a serial hand-engraved on the bell flare (granted, those were somewhat later, 1910s and 20s instruments, but I did see and try a Conn from the 1880s that was the earlier, very different more Germanic style, and I don't remember it having a serial on the bell flare). On the other end Carl Fisher instruments seem to often have that serial number placement.

A quick look on Horn-U-Copia yields several Carl Fisher instruments with stamps from European countries, by the way, including some of the "American Model" ones.

So you are saying that "house brand" is the same as "stencil" Not sure about that either. Stencil implies that someone copied the designs. Why would Fischer order copies made all the way in Europe, when Conn had factories in Elkhart IN and Worcester MA? My family has been in the international trading business for some 50 years, and it would only make sense if the overseas manufacturer could make them of the same quality but much cheaper to compensate for the additional logistics and import expenses. European manufacturers were not so much in the business of doing that back then as the Chinese knockoff companies are now.

In 1880 Conn was still using one or two European workers to make their instruments and there would have been inconsistencies in design. Quality was of more interest than placement of information. It wasn't until he built his larger factory that he was able to attract more specialists from Europe. He also acquired Isaac Fiske's brass instrument manufactory in Worcester, Massachusetts in 1887. Fiske's operation was actually considered to be the best in its time. I wonder if Fischer was purchasing the trombones from the Fiske facility. That might also explain the variation in serial number locations.

I'd like to see the info you found that shows Carl Fischer American Model instruments with stamps from European countries. Links?

[Zorkomatic]

Where's the water key on yours?

I suspect water key placement is indicative of different vintages of the Fisher instruments being supplied by different makers, more than of variation within a single maker's output.

Your trombone doesn't match the bracing style depicted in the 1893 catalog, but it is after all a drawing some I'm wary of giving too much importance to details.

The engraving is totally different too, but remember that Conn was making trombones in Elkhart as well as in Worcester by that time, and there is no reason to believe the instruments from both factories would be identical.

[Zorkomatic]

Which again is assuming all the instruments were made by Conn AND that the serial numbers follow Conn's own sequence, which is far from a given.

True, but the alternate explanations are theories that require a lot more explanations than assuming Fischer was at the time ordering the instruments already engraved and serial-numbered. I'm still a fan of Ockham. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

[LeTromboniste]

The term "stencil instrument" comes from the concept that retailers would buy instruments without the maker's brand on them, and would "stencil" their own brand and model numbers onto them. The engraving or stamping may or may not have been made by the retailer or a third party hired by them, rather than by the manufacturer. Depends on the maker and retailer. An instrument made by Conn for a retailer to market under their own name would be called a stencil.

Nothing to do with copying. Nothing to do with them coming from cheaper makers in areas with lower labour costs either. It's just that nowadays many stencil instruments happen to also be clones, and to be from Asia. Yet, many of today's stencil horns are indeed Asian but not copies, some are neither cheap, Asian nor copies (e.g. B&S and Courtois used to provide stencil instruments for some American shops), and some instruments are copies but not stencils. Those are unrelated.

[LeTromboniste]

The point being, this is 100% a stencil instrument. It's made by an unknown maker, and marketed by CF using their own brand and model names. You assume that Conn made this, and start from there, and it's not impossible or unlikely, but there is hardly proof. It could just as well be any other American or European maker (although unlikely German), a number of which we know CF dealt with. That there are instruments of theirs stamped "Bohemia" is pretty clear indication of that.

Most likely is that the instruments were left without any engravings, or with just the background swirls, and CF would then have either an in-house or contracted engraver add their brand, model name and serial number to the instrument.

[Zorkomatic]

The term "stencil instrument" comes from the concept that retailers would buy instruments without the maker's brand on them, and would "stencil" their own brand and model numbers onto them. The engraving or stamping may or may not have been made by the retailer or a third party hired by them, rather than by the manufacturer. Depends on the maker and retailer. An instrument made by Conn for a retailer to market under their own name would be called a stencil.

Nothing to do with copying. Nothing to do with them coming from cheaper makers in areas with lower labour costs either. It's just that nowadays many stencil instruments happen to also be clones, and to be from Asia. Yet, many of today's stencil horns are indeed Asian but not copies, some are neither cheap, Asian nor copies (e.g. B&S and Courtois used to provide stencil instruments for some American shops), and some instruments are copies but not stencils. Those are unrelated.

Aha. Thanks for the explanation. So it means "house brand". Got it. Thanks. So now I have to see if I can figure out who applied the engraving on Carl Fischer trombones.

I was also intrigued by the mention of Fischer applying his own serial numbers, but so far I have not found any evidence that he did that. I would have thought that if he had, someone would in all this time develop a database of Fischer serial numbers, not there are none that I can find. Same can be said for Fiske in Worcester. They were making instruments before Conn acquired them, but there is no record I can find of their serial numbers.

However, I have found clear evidence that Fischer's American Model trombones were made at the Fiske facility in Worcester, here: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AoULBt5YVpLHhP12lHn ... Q?e=g5BuHd CG Conn bought out Fiske in 1887, so anything they made for Fischer after that was officially a Conn product. So far, the evidence continues to strongly suggest this is a Conn trombone, sold to Fischer under a house-brand dealer agreement.

[Zorkomatic]

It's made by an unknown maker, and marketed by CF using their own brand and model names. You assume that Conn made this, and start from there, and it's not impossible or unlikely, but there is hardly proof. It could just as well be any other American or European maker (although unlikely German), a number of which we know CF dealt with. That there are instruments of theirs stamped "Bohemia" is pretty clear indication of that.

Most likely is that the instruments were left without any engravings, or with just the background swirls, and CF would then have either an in-house or contracted engraver add their brand, model name and serial number to the instrument.

I just posted the proof that Fischer's American Models were made by the Conn factory in Worcester MA, which used to be called the Fiske factory.

1887 Fiske has sold out (to Conn) (MTR, Feb); Conn opened its Worcester branch in January, 1887 (A Hundred Years of Music in America, 1889) “I take great pleasure in announcing that I have purchased the Isaac Fiske Band Instrument Manufactory at Worcester, Mass, including all of its tools and machinery, which will enable me to fill all future orders of band instruments.” C. G. Conn, May 1, 1887

Now I wonder where did the Fiske staff traditionally put the serial numbers on the instruments they manufactured?

Holmes, I need a clue!

[LeTromboniste]

What's the evidence that the Fischer instrument were made by Fiske?

It's worth noting that apparently Fiske made valved instruments, not trombones.

[Zorkomatic]

Aw, shucks. I saw Fischer Catalog #15 and I thought I read FIscke Catalog #15. That's because there's a Fiske catalog entry right below that. Damn my eyes (apologies to Marty Feldman).

Back to the chase.

[BGuttman]

I have an 1893 Eb tuba labeled "CG Conn, Elkhart Ind. and Worcester, Mass". It clearly comes from the Fiske plant. It corresponds to the Conn serial listing. If your trombone was indeed made in Worcester, then the serial is a Conn serial. We need to have some of the experts here on construction determine who is the stencil maker.

[Zorkomatic]

I have an 1893 Eb tuba labeled "CG Conn, Elkhart Ind. and Worcester, Mass". It clearly comes from the Fiske plant. It corresponds to the Conn serial listing. If your trombone was indeed made in Worcester, then the serial is a Conn serial. We need to have some of the experts here on construction determine who is the stencil maker.

That would certainly be a great idea. I also emailed Conn-Selmer to see if they still have the 19th century archives and could tell me to whom instrument # 27197 was originally sold (private party or dealer). It's a hail-mary, but you never know.

Somebody just asked me if I am going to learn to play this thing on another web site. I'd have to go on another bug hunt to figure out what mouthpiece would be right to me, and learn to make buzzing sounds.

[Zorkomatic]

Heeeeyyyy... this showed up on a search out of the blue...

At the same time, he had a desire to expand operations beyond Elkhart. When Isaac Fiske, an instrument maker in Worcester, Massachusetts, decided to retire, Conn bought him out and operated this second factory for eleven years. He also opened a retail shop in New York City.

That is completely new to me. Anyone have more info about this retail store???

[Zorkomatic]

More evidence the Fiske facility was building Conn designs... https://www.trumpet-history.com/Conn%20History.htm

Conn expanded further in December of 1886 buying the Isaac Fiske Instrument Works in Worchester Massachusetts. The factory continued to produce some of the same instruments but over time transitioned to building Conn designs. This venture was shut-down at the same time that the New York retail operation was launched in 1898.

I can't find any details about this retail operation...

[BGuttman]

If you read the "History of the Conn Company" on the site I linked (Conn Loyalist) they explain the acquisition of the Fiske plant in 1887 (closed in 1896). Note that I never found in that history that Conn was making anything for Carl Fischer -- but that doesn't mean that they didn't. The bracework on your horn will mean a lot to the guys here who know construction. I can't claim to be one

[Zorkomatic]

It took a while but I found the address where CG Conn opened a retail store in NYC in 1897. It was located at 34 E 14th St, about a 12 minute walk from Carl Fischer's store on Cooper Square.

[imsevimse]

The term "stencil instrument" comes from the concept that retailers would buy instruments without the maker's brand on them, and would "stencil" their own brand and model numbers onto them. The engraving or stamping may or may not have been made by the retailer or a third party hired by them, rather than by the manufacturer. Depends on the maker and retailer. An instrument made by Conn for a retailer to market under their own name would be called a stencil.

Nothing to do with copying. Nothing to do with them coming from cheaper makers in areas with lower labour costs either. It's just that nowadays many stencil instruments happen to also be clones, and to be from Asia. Yet, many of today's stencil horns are indeed Asian but not copies, some are neither cheap, Asian nor copies (e.g. B&S and Courtois used to provide stencil instruments for some American shops), and some instruments are copies but not stencils. Those are unrelated.

I want to thank Maximillian for the great explanations of what "stencils" are. It correlates very well with the information I've picked up over the years. I started to read the last forum somewhere around 2004 and from there my own interest grow and since 15 years I've become a collector and investigated many strange brands listed at ebay, many that I've traced to be stencils.

A tangent:
I remember when seeking information about my Wunderlich Chicago tenor that it was once forbidden to import whole instruments from Europe to US but it would be okay to order pieces of metal, therefore one Wunderlich brother who was a maker in Europe shipped trombone-parts made in the Europe shop to Chicago and there it was put together and sold. The brother in Chicago put his name on it and also the name of the city "Chicago". Carl Geyer who later become a very known french horn builder worked in the Chicago shop about that time so it may have been put together by him, but as usual with stencils there are a lot of unknowns and uncertainty (guesses). I would LIKE to be the owner of a trombone made by Carl Geyer but I can not say for sure if he made the horn or not even if he was the only craftsman in the shop to handle the brass instruments listed. It is a possibly made by Carl Geyer trombone. Stencils may be very good instruments but in this case the instrument is rather useless. It is very sharp, very close to a B in first position, besides that it looks nice. Nice engraving. Very German design.

/Tom

[Brent]

Afaik, Conn (and other makers?) didn't start labelling any of their instruments "LP" until around 1906/7. So, if this one is stencilled with "LP" (I couldn't see from the pics) then I submit that it is NOT a 19th Century Instrument.
Interesting historical Trombone nonetheless. Cheers...

[afugate]

Tangential info.

The USS Leviathan was apparently commissioned in 1917.
Source: Wikipedia (so, perhaps questionable )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Leviathan

--Andy in OKC

[Zorkomatic]

Afaik, Conn (and other makers?) didn't start labelling any of their instruments "LP" until around 1906/7. So, if this one is stencilled with "LP" (I couldn't see from the pics) then I submit that it is NOT a 19th Century Instrument.
Interesting historical Trombone nonetheless. Cheers...

This one is not stenciled LP, the letters are stamped, not engraved.

[Zorkomatic]

Tangential info.

The USS Leviathan was apparently commissioned in 1917.
Source: Wikipedia (so, perhaps questionable )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Leviathan

--Andy in OKC

That is correct, but doesn't mean the instrument itself was from 1917. Still waiting for an answer from Conn.

[afugate]

Tangential info.

The USS Leviathan was apparently commissioned in 1917.
Source: Wikipedia (so, perhaps questionable )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Leviathan

--Andy in OKC

That is correct, but doesn't mean the instrument itself was from 1917. Still waiting for an answer from Conn.

Apologies. I see this info in your original post.

--Andy in OKC

[Brent]

Afaik, Conn (and other makers?) didn't start labelling any of their instruments "LP" until around 1906/7. So, if this one is stencilled with "LP" (I couldn't see from the pics) then I submit that it is NOT a 19th Century Instrument.
Interesting historical Trombone nonetheless. Cheers...

This one is not stenciled LP, the letters are stamped, not engraved.

Yep (I used the wrong word). "LP" (or "HP") was invariably stamped - not engraved - from 1906/7 onwards until "HP" horns finally bit the dust. Cheers...

[Zorkomatic]

This one is not stenciled LP, the letters are stamped, not engraved.

Yep (I used the wrong word). "LP" (or "HP") was invariably stamped - not engraved - from 1906/7 onwards until "HP" horns finally bit the dust. Cheers...

I have read that trombones made in the 19th century were also stamped LP and HP. Something about bands in the US driving on the right and British ones driving on the left.

[Zorkomatic]

Conn replied that they have no historical archives. Seems a pity that they may have discarded all those records. I wonder if a library or archive in Elkhart may still have them...

[BGuttman]

High Pitch was standard Band tuning in the mid 19th Century. During the last quarter of the 19th Century and going into the 1st quarter of the 20th Century the standard pitch became A=440 Hz (close to Low Pitch). The use of HP and LP "stamps" helped make sure the instruments were appropriate for the ensemble tuning.

Note that the issue is that we don't know for sure whether your Carl Fischer trombone was a stencil from Conn or somewhere else. And you estimation of date is based on Conn serial numbers. We can be pretty sure it was presented to the Leviathan Ship's Band in 1917.