Conn "LP"?

[Zorkomatic]

LOL! I didn't think I'd get such a great example to make my point so quickly. Standard answer, Andy: You'll get over it.

This is a straight up troll answer. Again... what is your point? You have a pretty neat stencil horn with a Conn counterweight. It doesn't need to be a Conn. Even if it was, it wouldn't be worth much of anything.

And this is what I call a nothing burger answer. You don't even know what a troll is, but if you're annoyed because you think I am trolling you, I have no objection to that. Isnt it past your bedtime?

[Burgerbob]

This is a straight up troll answer. Again... what is your point? You have a pretty neat stencil horn with a Conn counterweight. It doesn't need to be a Conn. Even if it was, it wouldn't be worth much of anything.

And this is what I call a nothing burger answer. You don't even know what a troll is, but if you're annoyed because you think I am trolling you, I have no objection to that. Isnt it past your bedtime?

Well, if the first one wasn't a troll answer, that one is. Come up with something solid or begone.

[harrisonreed]

He's too young to know what "Zork" is, I think, Aiden.

[Zorkomatic]

And this is what I call a nothing burger answer. You don't even know what a troll is, but if you're annoyed because you think I am trolling you, I have no objection to that. Isnt it past your bedtime?

Well, if the first one wasn't a troll answer, that one is. Come up with something solid or begone.

Begone? LMAO! Sit back down and finish your lollipop. If you can't control your motormouth that's a personal problem. Priest or therapist, pick one, hopefully not in that order. Phone going on silent, so if you miss me, you'll have to wait at least 8 hours for your dose.

He's too young to know what "Zork" is, I think, Aiden.

I was playing Infocom when you were still asking for ice cream money.

(This is too easy, like taking candy from midget trolls.)

[Burgerbob]

Admin, want to nuke this? I'd say we've had enough.

[Posaunus]

I'd say we've had enough.

[LeTromboniste]

But it's ok, every forum has their share of wannabe party-poopers who pretend they know what they are talking about and... well, they really try to do a good job at whatever it is they think they do, but they just can't pull it off, bless their hearts.

Says the guy who came here not knowing anything about trombones, but who in less than 48 hours of doing armchair-organology, became a leading expert in trombone history. Ladies and gentlemen, may I present to you, the Dunning-Kruger effect, embodied flesh and soul!

There is no documented evidence it is a Carl Fischer or military inventory number either, they're just theories as well. Give it a rest.

You mean hypotheses.

Yes they are. Some of them are based on actual knowledge of the subject matter, having seen and played many instruments, knowing what a Conn trombone looks like, and knowing the first thing about the stencil instruments market.

Some of them are based on absolutely nothing more than knowing so little that one thinks they found a big important mystery to solve, and that their instinct just must be right, and that anyone who doesn't agree with them, no matter how much more knowledgeable about this they are, doesn't know what they're talking about. It's neither important nor a particularly big mystery. Your mother may have told you you were special. Flash news, you're not.

But any old Conn would not be as historically valuable as this one. Except maybe the other one that was given to the band? It's so disappointing that so many of you simply don't get it.

If you knew anything about trombones, you'd know that, yes any old Conn is more historically valuable than whatever this is. Any instrument that old has history behind it. Any old Conn, even without such a dedication engraved on it, would at least be known to be a good instrument from a known, and famously good manufacturer. That's already more information (and more valuable information).

You have an old beat-up stencil instrument from an unknown maker that probably never was a particularly good horn, that just happens to have a bit of mildly interesting trivia sloppily engraved on it.

There are countless similar instruments with dedications to individual players or service bands of various kinds. It's cool, but it hardly makes them valuable. Nobody really cares about a trombone that may or may not have been played on board the SS Leviathan. That's trivia, not history. Of course that can be interesting and valuable trivia to you personally, but that doesn't make it objectively historically valuable for the rest of the world.



I agree with Aidan. I think it's time to close this thread

[mrpillow]

Alright, final warning it is...

Constructive conversation only or this one gets the slammer!

[BGuttman]

It appears that Zork has been given a "vacation" with a warning that if he continues the personal attacks he will be banned for good.

I am still interested in what people find out about his trombone, given its interesting engraving.

I am reminded of a King Gladiator cornet I bought a few years back. It was listed with a label that said "Played for the President, [month] 1948" (I don't remember the month). I discounted the authenticity of it and got it at what I thought was a reasonable price for an instrument of its age and status. When I got the thing I checked the label. It was printed on a dot matrix printer. Confirmed for me that the "provenance" was most likely false. Unfortunately I loaned the thing to somebody who never returned it. Wasn't a bad horn, too.

[JohnL]

It's really too bad that the discussion got focused on the whole "Conn-or-not-Conn" issue. I'm far more interested in how it ended up being engraved and presented to the engineering department. I figure that's got to be a good story.

[Burgerbob]

It's really too bad that the discussion got focused on the whole "Conn-or-not-Conn" issue. I'm far more interested in how it ended up being engraved and presented to the engineering department. I figure that's got to be a good story.

Yup- it's still a very interesting horn!

[tjonz]

This looks to me like the same instrument:
https://www.shoptoluv.site/product/Vint ... nkrnj.html

[atopper333]

In all honesty, the bracing and styling of the engraving look very similar to a York trombone. My memory and a little research at horn-u-copia for the York serial number list did jog my memory that Carl Fisher did take over York at some point. Maybe a possibility.

[JohnL]

This looks to me like the same instrument:
https://www.shoptoluv.site/product/Vint ... nkrnj.html

Looks like.

That's a wicked split in the receiver.

[Doug Elliott]

"As with many companies during the 30's, the York company fell victim to the Great Depression and was purchased by Carl Fischer for $300,000 in December 1940"
That's much too late for this horn.

York both bought and sold stencil instruments, but no names that match this horn.

[atopper333]

"As with many companies during the 30's, the York company fell victim to the Great Depression and was purchased by Carl Fischer for $300,000 in December 1940"
York both bought and sold stencil instruments, but no names that match this horn.

I had read that…just thinking maybe they had a relationship prior to that with the possibility of York providing stencil horns several years/decades prior to being bought out…again, purely a thought just based on a similar styling. Then again, many of the horns of this era tend to blend together to me and I am by no means an expert!

[Bart]

I'm not an expert by any means, so I hope someone with more knowledge will comment on my findings. I've been searching for Carl Fischer instruments with the same decorative engraving. I might be completely wrong and I'd like to hear some feedback about it, but I always assumed that the decorative engraving was added by the manufacturer. The name of the reseller would be engraved later, same with the serial number. That's my assumption at this point.

My apologies for an image-heavy reply! I tried to find instruments with similar engravings and I'll try to add a picture of the instrument as well. Maybe they can be identified easier? Or they may prove me wrong about my assumption that all instruments with this similar engraving are made by the same manufacturer. Either way is fine for me

This is the engraving of the Mystery Trombone:

20220320-112132.jpg

I've been able to find a few that look very much alike to this one. I only compared the decorative engraving, not the model/type or anything like that.


Cornet, currently on ebay. Seller mentions that "Austria" is marked on the leadpipe.

s-l500.jpg

s-l500 (1).jpg

Trumpet from horn-u-copia, where it is mentioned that "Czechoslovakia" is stamped on the mouthpiece receiver. Serial 36669.

Fischer-Trumpet-36669.jpg

Tuba, no mention of further markings, but close in serial number with the mystery trombone.

699165805-c (1).jpg

524516715-a.jpg

Baritone, no mention of further markings, similar engraving, from horn-u-copia.

Fischer-baritone-American-4.jpg

Baritone, from the collection of Simonetti, marked B&F.

img_20190319_172910938_2.jpg

img_20190319_172503832.jpg

img_20190319_172535230.jpg

B&F had their factory in Graslitz/Kraslice that was part of Austria prior to WWI and part of Czechoslovakia after WWI. And that's in Bohemia. So those places do make sense on an instrument from B&F, depending on the age of the instrument.

If the decorative engraving is indeed indicative of the manufacturer, I would be inclided to say those instruments are all B&F instruments. I would love to hear more from someone with more knowledge about stencil horns. I do understand they could've been ordered from any manufacturer specifically with this engraving pre-engraved.

[LeTromboniste]

I'm not an expert by any means, so I hope someone with more knowledge will comment on my findings. I've been searching for Carl Fischer instruments with the same decorative engraving. I might be completely wrong and I'd like to hear some feedback about it, but I always assumed that the decorative engraving was added by the manufacturer. The name of the reseller would be engraved later, same with the serial number. That's my assumption at this point.

My apologies for an image-heavy reply! I tried to find instruments with similar engravings and I'll try to add a picture of the instrument as well. Maybe they can be identified easier? Or they may prove me wrong about my assumption that all instruments with this similar engraving are made by the same manufacturer. Either way is fine for me

This is the engraving of the Mystery Trombone:
20220320-112132.jpg


I've been able to find a few that look very much alike to this one. I only compared the decorative engraving, not the model/type or anything like that.


Cornet, currently on ebay. Seller mentions that "Austria" is marked on the leadpipe.
s-l500.jpgs-l500 (1).jpg


Trumpet from horn-u-copia, where it is mentioned that "Czechoslovakia" is stamped on the mouthpiece receiver. Serial 36669.
Fischer-Trumpet-36669.jpg

Tuba, no mention of further markings, but close in serial number with the mystery trombone.
699165805-c (1).jpg524516715-a.jpg


Baritone, no mention of further markings, similar engraving, from horn-u-copia.
Fischer-baritone-American-4.jpg


Baritone, from the collection of Simonetti, marked B&F.
img_20190319_172910938_2.jpgimg_20190319_172503832.jpgimg_20190319_172535230.jpg



B&F had their factory in Graslitz/Kraslice that was part of Austria prior to WWI and part of Czechoslovakia after WWI. And that's in Bohemia. So those places do make sense on an instrument from B&F, depending on the age of the instrument.

If the decorative engraving is indeed indicative of the manufacturer, I would be inclided to say those instruments are all B&F instruments. I would love to hear more from someone with more knowledge about stencil horns. I do understand they could've been ordered from any manufacturer specifically with this engraving pre-engraved.

I think Bohland and Fuchs is indeed a likely candidate for making at least some of the Fischer instruments. They certainly were one of the major makers of stencil instruments, and they did use all three denominations "Austria", "Bohemia" and "Czechoslovakia" at different times in the late-19th and early-20th centuries. They might very well have put the engravings - you do find instruments (including B&F) that are pre-engraved without any brand or model, ready to be stenciled. But I can thing of two reasons why I'm not 100% convinced in this case that the engravings are B&F's:
1) If Fischer got stencils from different manufacturers, which wouldn't be surprising, they might have wanted the same style engraving on all (which seems to be the case, judging from the wide variety of different instruments, not only different specimens of the same instrument, that have that same style). If that is the case, it would make more sense for them to get the instruments with no engraving at all and then get whoever they hired to do the whole engraving, not just the brand and model, and thus getting a consistent visual identity across the brand and between different vintages.
2) Not all B&F instruments have large ornate engravings, but those that have them seem to have much more complex engraving than what we see on the Fischer instruments. The Fischer engraving is all wriggle engraving and basic cuts.

[Bart]

Thanks for your input, Maximilien! Those are the doubts I have as well. I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough to recognize the different styles of the instruments and possible trace them back to their manufacturer.

Just an addition: I did look specifically for that style of engraving in my previous post. There are a lot of different engravings on Carl Fischer's instruments as well, within a wide range of serial numbers. Some examples, just to add to the confusion

Fischer-Trumpet-40634.jpg

1075538512-Engraving.jpg

1100055850-image.jpg

1292353747-c2.jpg

Fischer-cornet-Am-Perf.jpg

Fischer-cornet-perfected.jpg

Fischer-Orsi-Trumpet.jpg

Fischer-trumpet-970.jpg

Fischer-Trumpet-junior.jpg

Fischer-tuba-artist.jpg

[BGuttman]

Bart, thanks for all your diligent research. Only thing I wonder: the dedication on Zorkomatic's horn puts it in 1917, so it probably was new within a couple of years of that. At that time Europe was deeply involved in World War I. How would instruments made in Graslitz (then a part of Austria-Hungary) make it across the Atlantic to New York?

[Bart]

Thanks, Bruce! No problem, I'm curious about the origins as well, so I spent a little time looking at old horns That's not a punishment at all!

Very good question. I have absolutely no idea...

[Brent]

This looks to me like the same instrument:
https://www.shoptoluv.site/product/Vint ... nkrnj.html

Definitely the same one. Perhaps some of the other Trombones on the same site should be more tempting?
eg. 'Olds Special' for $137.50; 'Selmer London Sterling' (nice Deco engraving and 'snakeskin' case) $140; 'Conn Director' including 'Vincent Bach' Mouthpiece $30; Holton (very nice engraving) $219.50...
[Warning: Only buy from random websites if you can view it in person first, THEN pay/take it].

[BGuttman]

This looks to me like the same instrument:
https://www.shoptoluv.site/product/Vint ... nkrnj.html

Looks like.

That's a wicked split in the receiver.

Interesting site. Seems to have a specialty in trombones and banjos. Trombone prices are all over the place -- some too high and some too low. A Holton TR-150 for $250 is a steal, even if it needs a ton of work. A Getzen Dude at $400 is way overpriced. And check out the $0.99 specials!

[DougHulme]

I thought the OP said he got it from a flea market - does this site constitute a flea market?

[ithinknot]

Looks like.

That's a wicked split in the receiver.

Interesting site. Seems to have a specialty in trombones and banjos. Trombone prices are all over the place -- some too high and some too low. A Holton TR-150 for $250 is a steal, even if it needs a ton of work. A Getzen Dude at $400 is way overpriced. And check out the $0.99 specials!

It's not a real site. Photos and descriptions are harvested from recent eBay listings and similar.

(Seriously, don't get taken in by this kind of thing.)

[jthomas105]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153581880058

We have been looking for another instrument that has some of the same build parts. This is a stencil that I think was imported by the Wurlitzer music company. Check the ferules that connect the slide tubes to the slide crook, they look to be the same unusual length compared to any other trombone I have ever seen. Also, the water key on both of these is on the side of the slide crook instead the outer curve on the bottom.

https://americanbusinesshistory.org/mus ... zer-story/

This link gives the history of the Wurlitzer music company. Short version---Rudolph Wurlitzer came to America in the 1850’s from Germany. He sent money to father, Rembert Wurlitzer, in Germany to import music instruments and sold to another store. It was so successful that he opened his own company and imported and sold music instruments from Germany. In 1868 he married a woman named Leonie Farny who had immigrated from France to America with her family, also in the 1850’s. Leonie had a brother named Henry Farny that was a renowned artist that painted scenes and the American West and native American. At some point in the late 19th century or early 20th century Wurlizter began to import “Henri Farny” labeled/stenciled clarinets and violins that were made in France. It looks like Wurlitzer took his brother-in-laws name and used the French spelling “Henry to Henri” to import stenciled instruments. He was still importing from Germany too. What I think might have happened is that when World War I started in 1914 is that they could not import instruments from Germany any more so they turned to French makers for their instruments and they branded some of the brass "Henri Farny" like the clarinets and violins they imported.

As Bart and Maxmillien have found Carl Fischer instruments imported from Austria, Czechoslovakia and other places it made me think that Carl Fischer may have had the same problem with imports from those countries during World War I. In other documentation it has been recognized that at some point CF did import from France. Because the two slides look to be built the same my thought is that CF and Wurlizter happened to contract with the same French company (Courtois, Couesnon, ???) to build some of their brass instruments during World War I.

Call me a fool if you want for these thoughts and musings – it has already happened once. Although not by a trombone player, just a rank amateur.

[BGuttman]

Note that Conn made a number of instruments for Wurlitzer, although it seems they are post World War I since they have H model numbers (started in 1919). The appearance of the mystery trombone doesn't look Conn, but Conn did make instruments for others. I just don't think this particular instrument is one of them.

[Posaunus]

Note that Conn made a number of instruments for Wurlitzer, although it seems they are post World War I since they have H model numbers (started in 1919). The appearance of the mystery trombone doesn't look Conn, but Conn did make instruments for others. I just don't think this particular instrument is one of them.

But don't you all understand? It had a CONN counterweight, which surely attests to its authenticity as a true Conn trombone!

[Or was this an early Frankenhorn?]

[atopper333]

Call me a fool if you want for these thoughts and musings – it has already happened once. Although not by a trombone player, just a rank amateur.

I wouldn’t think there would be any need for that! If anything, this type of discussion may jog someone’s memory or lead down a different path of research. It’s constructive and thought out, sadly unlike some of the previous posts…

I’m rather new here, but do have strong opinions and believe in respectful behavior/differences in opinion. The fact that someone would be stubborn enough to lack the ability to be open minded and listen to several people on this forum with a vast amount of experience is…disconcerting. And also to focus in on a part as identifiable and easy to date as a branded counterweight from a well documented company from a completely different era further illustrates a closed mindedness that makes no sense for someone coming to a forum to seek information from people more knowledgeable concerning the subject matter.

But don't you all understand? It had a CONN counterweight, which surely attests to its authenticity as a true Conn trombone!

[Or was this an early Frankenhorn?]

(Just shaking my head concerning the OPs comments…)

Anyway…enough of that. Another thought…I’m unaware of how the markets worked back in that day. Could it be a possibility that this horn was imported prior to World War One as a stencil, and just sat on a shelf or in a storeroom and was sold as new old stock a few years later?

[BGuttman]

...

Anyway…enough of that. Another thought…I’m unaware of how the markets worked back in that day. Could it be a possibility that this horn was imported prior to World War One as a stencil, and just sat on a shelf or in a storeroom and was sold as new old stock a few years later?

That's probably as valid a scenario as any of the others presented so far. Without a serial - date list for Carl Fischer instruments we really have no idea when this was made. I hope when Zorkomatic returns from his "vacation" he reads your post and thinks about how he's been acting. This started as an interesting quest and I hope it continues that way.

[DonQLo]

I’m far from an expert on this matter but in my opinion, the mystery trombone could be a Besson stencil.

Carl Fisher distributed Besson brass instruments back in the day as a Sole Agent and the long ferrules of the outer slide look like Besson to me, but I might be wrong. Also the waterkey. This observation is based solely in design.