Elkhart 88H vs Modern Boutique Horn

[CTBrass]

I own an Elkhart 88H that I found a while back and a very recently purchased boutique horn. I had been going back and forth between these instruments for a long time trying to decide which was a better fit for me. If I’m being completely honest, I think I wanted to play the modern horn exclusively only because it’s what everyone else was doing…and it seems there are people who actually judge your playing by what horn you play…I decided to play the 88H exclusively for a few months, the the same with the modern horn. When I went back to the 88H, it was honestly hands down the better playing instrument in almost every way. I was shocked at how easily I could phrase the way I wanted, how mentally confident I felt making an attack, how smooth the transitions between notes and partials felt and sounded, and when listening back to recordings of each, I preferred the sound of the Conn every time. I’m just sharing this as good for thought for anyone who may be looking for a horn on a limited budget, or feeling like they are struggling on a modern horn (which are considerably larger feeling to me) to check out these amazing instruments if you can find one. You can make amazing music on these, and yes - still get a big, rich full sound, that does not get “edgy” when played at louder volumes if you are playing correctly.

[chromebone]

The bottom line should always be this: whatever works for you.

Too many people hear with their eyes, not with their ears, in this business.

If an 88h is good enough for Christian Lindberg, it is good enough for any of us too.

[blast]

There's a reason that these trombones have been so popular for more than half a century...and continue to be in the UK...I'm sitting next to two of them as I type. GREAT instruments. Lots of boutique stuff is easier to play...initially.... but you can trust an 88H.

[blast]

...and I love the comment' Does not get edgy when played at louder volumes if you are playing correctly' That should be writ large somewhere here.

[MStarke]

I own a modern 88ht and an Elkhart 88h.
Honestly I have not played many other large bores in the last years, have always loved Conn trombones and am not a professional player anymore.

I am pretty convinced that a nice Conn could fully cover any trombonist's needs regarding playability, response, sound etc. As long as he/she likes it!
So theoretically there would not be a real need for a more expensive boutique horn.
In other words: If you like your Conn there is no need to buy a Shires etc. that plays similarly.
But of course it is nice to have more variation and more individual choice.
If money didn't matter I would also have considered buying e.g. a Conn-style Greenhoe or M&W.
However objectively it probably doesn't make it much better, just a little different.

If you want the 88h sound/style, why not prefer the 88h?

I love both the Elkhart and modern 88h, especially sound-wise.

BTW: I would still be interested which mystery boutique horn you have been trying?

[hyperbolica]

Boutique horns are not all the same. I've played Rath and M&W that I really loved.

I've been playing a 68 88h since 75, and I've never found anything I liked better. Just recently got a 58 8h, and I can hardly put it down. I had a Shires on trial and sent it back. It wasn't bad, it just wasn't better.

[Matt K]

Not sure I agree with the judgemental part. If anything, you hear a lot of criticism of contemporary horns, particularly Thayer valves, heavy bells, etc. compared to tanks, mind-reading accusations that truly players are seeking shortcuts to avoid practicing, or to purchase their way into a good sound, etc. Maybe it is different on your side of the pond. I've never heard anything but praise for Elkhart 88s, in particular.

Maybe the pricing has something to do with cost of importing or something. Over here (US) when they come up for sale, they are typically at quite a premium over contemporary used horns, which reflects, if anything, their relative desirability. E.g. this 88H that just sold for almost $4k, which is around 2x what two 1970s Bach 42Bs are going for at the same shop and in line with used prices for good condition boutique horns at Dillon

https://www.hornguys.com/products/vinta ... mbone-used

[MrHCinDE]

I'm liking the enthusiasm for Elkhart 88H, I agree that they can be superb and represent excellent value for money if you like the Conn-style horn.

One small note that although many of them may be excellent, I've tried at least a couple of Elkhart Conns which just weren't in the same league. As always, it's about the individual horn and player so best to try if you can. There are good, great and not-so-good horns made in every era.

I enjoy playing my Elkhart 8H, which is an even cheaper alternative for someone who doesn't need the valve. I had thought about getting a valve fitted to my 8H but just couldn't risk ruining it.

As a slight aside, my late 80s straight Bach 42 plays just as good as the Elkhart 8H, different yes, but certainly not worse for my needs. It was about 40% cheaper than the Elkhart 8H any my feeling is that there's a possibly a bit of a premium applied to the Conn Elkhart name, there are other great playing large bore horns to be had from the 50s/60s/70s/80s which can hold their own with the Elkhart 8H/88H.

About the edginess, I heard an interesting thought on this from the conductor in a trombone sectional yesterday on Tchaikovsky Romeo and Juliet. The Tuba and Bass Trombone were giving it plenty of gas so I naturally joined in on the 1st part with my 8H. I was trying to give some clear articulation to really crack out the semi-quavers so that they would be clear in the last row of the concert hall. I inadvertently put a fairly steep front end on some of the longer chords and immediately got pulled up on it for being too edgy. The conductor was of course right to call me out on it. He explained that, in that context, he’s more than happy that the trombones have some colour in the sound, but that it should be more of an organic rounded shape, not punctuated with a sudden metallic sound at the start of the note. For me personally, as much as it’s great to have easy access to the many different tone colours you can get out of an Elkhart 8H/88H, I do have to be just a little bit more careful with the articulation on it than some other horns. For other forms of music, this may actually be an advantage. I’d probably have the same minor issue with a boutique horn inspired by an Elkhart 88H also.

[Matt K]

One small note that although many of them may be excellent, I've tried at least a couple of Elkhart Conns which just weren't in the same league. As always, it's about the individual horn and player so best to try if you can. There are good, great and not-so-good horns made in every era.

You have to bear in mind these horns are upwards of 70 years old at this point. All it takes is one person owning it for a short period of time and not maintaining it for something to go awry. Especially on the 88 vs the 8. A misaligned or badly corroded rotor will make it go to the "dud" side pretty quick. Same with a badly corroded leadpipe. May have also had poorly done work on it. But you make sure the first two aren't issues and I suspect your dud rate drops pretty precipitiously.

[MrHCinDE]

You have to bear in mind these horns are upwards of 70 years old at this point. All it takes is one person owning it for a short period of time and not maintaining it for something to go awry. Especially on the 88 vs the 8. A misaligned or badly corroded rotor will make it go to the "dud" side pretty quick. Same with a badly corroded leadpipe. May have also had poorly done work on it. But you make sure the first two aren't issues and I suspect your dud rate drops pretty precipitiously.

Yes, can be something as easy as the DIY job of rotor alignment if you're lucky. Can be a lot worse. It's actually quite amazing that there are still so many really great 88H/8H around from that era after 70 years of rehearsals and gigging. Anybody got an estimate of how many Elkhart 8H/88H were made?

I'd add bells that have been previoulsy seriously damaged and hammered out as another potential pitfall. I'd probably add a budget for a slide service on any used horn I would buy as well. I generally don't get too hung up on a small amount of wear to the inners of a vintage horn, as long as the action is still good. Not trying to be negative though, even with some moderate budget for some tech work, an 88H/8H can be a great option.

[blast]

Not sure I agree with the judgemental part. If anything, you hear a lot of criticism of contemporary horns, particularly Thayer valves, heavy bells, etc. compared to tanks, mind-reading accusations that truly players are seeking shortcuts to avoid practicing, or to purchase their way into a good sound, etc. Maybe it is different on your side of the pond. I've never heard anything but praise for Elkhart 88s, in particular.

Maybe the pricing has something to do with cost of importing or something. Over here (US) when they come up for sale, they are typically at quite a premium over contemporary used horns, which reflects, if anything, their relative desirability. E.g. this 88H that just sold for almost $4k, which is around 2x what two 1970s Bach 42Bs are going for at the same shop and in line with used prices for good condition boutique horns at Dillon

https://www.hornguys.com/products/vinta ... mbone-used

Me...judgemental?????? . Look, Conns are what they are...there are bad ones out there for sure so buying an old one is a bit of a minefield, but if you do get a great one, it's very special .
Prices...simply what people are prepared to pay...look at MV 5G pieces. US pro sections are a few pages further on than us and that's fine...we have built up quite a tradition around Conns but more modern stuff is creeping in even here. Eventually a new generation may have a different sound idea and adopt a new make of horn...it will happen in the end. Our sound concept has grown around Conns, but the player is more important than the make of instrument.

[CTBrass]

Great discussion and insights here to my original post. I’m blessed with having a repair technician who happens to be an expert on Elkhart era horns. His knowledge on the subtleties of each series/year is impressive, as is his work. In his opinion, the Elkhart Conns are some of the best trombones ever made.

[Thrawn22]

Having own a couple of non-Conn horns and a newer 8H i can say that the Elkhart era Conns have worked for me best. I've tried some great Bachs and Shires but my Conns work for me.


I just need to stop buying them.

[spencercarran]

...and I love the comment' Does not get edgy when played at louder volumes if you are playing correctly' That should be writ large somewhere here.

imo there are essentially no trombones that get edgy at louder volumes if you are playing correctly. Even the smallest peashooters can hold up just fine with appropriate embouchure control.

[Burgerbob]

"boutique horn" covers what, tens of thousands of combinations of instruments?

[fwbassbone]

I feel better on Bach style horns and with that said I've played and owned some great old Bachs. I've also played some pretty doggy old Bachs. Same with Conns. I now play a modern horn (Edwards) that is the best Bach I've ever played. Why? Because I can play the music I hear in my head most easily on it. Play what you can play musically easiest. My 2 cents.

[elmsandr]

The bottom line should always be this: whatever works for you.

Too many people hear with their eyes, not with their ears, in this business.

If an 88h is good enough for Christian Lindberg, it is good enough for any of us too.

He swapped the flare; first for a Minick, later had Conn develop a new valve and Sterling setup for him.

So, it wasn't good enough for him?

That 88H still better than me (and so is the modern horn, too). I like working on horns and building things with them and making adjustments to improve things for me... but I am a better engineer than a player. Heck; the yamaha I had as a student still can sound better than I can with it. Doesn't mean that's what I want to bring to a gig.

Back to the OP, I find a different flexibility of response and intended action out of vintage horns. Maybe not easier to play; but in some ways more rewarding and more interesting to my ear. The 70 year old horn next to me humbles me daily in a way that my Edwards never did for the decade that I had it. A little more wrestling; but I like it. If I had to make my living with it? Depends on the gig, I suppose. I could very much see where some newer horns may make my life easier. Good thing I don't have to rely on my practice habits to live indoors and put food on the table.

Cheers,
Andy

[Matt K]

Not sure I agree with the judgemental part. If anything, you hear a lot of criticism of contemporary horns, particularly Thayer valves, heavy bells, etc. compared to tanks, mind-reading accusations that truly players are seeking shortcuts to avoid practicing, or to purchase their way into a good sound, etc. Maybe it is different on your side of the pond. I've never heard anything but praise for Elkhart 88s, in particular.

Maybe the pricing has something to do with cost of importing or something. Over here (US) when they come up for sale, they are typically at quite a premium over contemporary used horns, which reflects, if anything, their relative desirability. E.g. this 88H that just sold for almost $4k, which is around 2x what two 1970s Bach 42Bs are going for at the same shop and in line with used prices for good condition boutique horns at Dillon

https://www.hornguys.com/products/vinta ... mbone-used

Me...judgemental?????? . Look, Conns are what they are...there are bad ones out there for sure so buying an old one is a bit of a minefield, but if you do get a great one, it's very special .
Prices...simply what people are prepared to pay...look at MV 5G pieces. US pro sections are a few pages further on than us and that's fine...we have built up quite a tradition around Conns but more modern stuff is creeping in even here. Eventually a new generation may have a different sound idea and adopt a new make of horn...it will happen in the end. Our sound concept has grown around Conns, but the player is more important than the make of instrument.

I didn't quite mean that - I've personally met some pretty... opinionated... people. Being judgemental isn't inherently bad, but the way the OP described it there are people out there (in the UK?) who seem to think its a negative thing to own an Elkhart 88 which is baffling to me and completely contrary to my personal experience.

[WGWTR180]

Not sure I agree with the judgemental part. If anything, you hear a lot of criticism of contemporary horns, particularly Thayer valves, heavy bells, etc. compared to tanks, mind-reading accusations that truly players are seeking shortcuts to avoid practicing, or to purchase their way into a good sound, etc. Maybe it is different on your side of the pond. I've never heard anything but praise for Elkhart 88s, in particular.

Maybe the pricing has something to do with cost of importing or something. Over here (US) when they come up for sale, they are typically at quite a premium over contemporary used horns, which reflects, if anything, their relative desirability. E.g. this 88H that just sold for almost $4k, which is around 2x what two 1970s Bach 42Bs are going for at the same shop and in line with used prices for good condition boutique horns at Dillon

https://www.hornguys.com/products/vinta ... mbone-used

The judgmental part definitely exists as I've seen it first hand with both other players and with myself.

[Finetales]

I didn't quite mean that - I've personally met some pretty... opinionated... people. Being judgemental isn't inherently bad, but the way the OP described it there are people out there (in the UK?) who seem to think its a negative thing to own an Elkhart 88 which is baffling to me and completely contrary to my personal experience.

It probably depends on where. I would say that Elkhart 88Hs are still the most common large tenor in SoCal, and nobody gives one a second glance. But in Midwest Bach/Edwards country, it might garner some comments from more judgmental folks.

[Matt K]

Is there a typical criticism or cluster of criticisms that 88 players receive? My main large tenor was setup as an 88 for most of my time in the mountain west and I never received any comments, but maybe that was because I had Shires engraved on the bell!

[harrisonreed]

Until you realize that the narrow slide crook is incompatible with the function of your embouchure.

"This is the best shoe ever made - comes in size 10 only."

The premise is silly. There are people who can bring out all their potential on an 88H. The are people who can bring out all their potential on a different brand. There are people who can bring out all the potential of whatever trombone they have in their hands. The problems we find always come down to us. Leave the horn out of it.

[BGuttman]

Until you realize that the narrow slide crook is incompatible with the function of your embouchure.

"This is the best shoe ever made - comes in size 10 only."

'
I didn't have that problem with an Elkie 88H. Nor with a King 4B-F or a Yamaha 682.

[harrisonreed]

Until you realize that the narrow slide crook is incompatible with the function of your embouchure.

"This is the best shoe ever made - comes in size 10 only."

'
I didn't have that problem with an Elkie 88H. Nor with a King 4B-F or a Yamaha 682.

I never had that problem with my size 14.5 shoes either. I've worn sandals that were way too small -- on the beach. Wasn't running marathons in them. It was awesome.

You're just saying it was a good fit for you, for what you were doing with it. It's like comparing different kinds of pizza. Pizza is good. No contest.

The OP is essentially "This trombone is great! Much better than some other trombone I don't like" Cool story. Let's make some music

[BGuttman]

My point was if an Elkie 88H works better for you than some boutique horn, fantastic. Use the Elkie until it can't play any more.

[CTBrass]

My original post was intended to share my experience with two very different instruments and maybe encourage others to take a look at the Elkhart Conns (or any vintage instrument for that matter) if they weren’t already aware of their potential for being a good fit. Definitely a “cool story” as you put it.

[MrHCinDE]

Careful now, don‘t want to let that Elkhart secret out of the bag! Might get hard to find if they become too popular.

Joking aside, I wish I‘d have been advised to check out an Elkhart 88H in the late 90s when buying my first horn. It would have been a great alternative to the new 88H-LT-OW which I ended up buying. My 88H-LT-OW was also a very good horn and served me well for 20 years but an Elkhart 88H would have also worked, maybe even slightly better, and could have been a bit cheaper than the new horn at that time.

Out of interest, are you planning to keep the other horn or sell it and focus 100% on the Elkhart? Having been in a similar position myself it‘s painful to look at lots of €/£/$ of horn which are kept on the subs bench. Would you consider getting some parts swapped out on the boutique horn (assuming it is modular)? Perhaps it wasn‘t quite the ideal setup for you?

[Matt K]

There is something really nice about the way the narrow slides play on a Conn style bell section. I'd prefer the slide to be a little wider, but I was comparing TW47 slides to T47 slides a few years ago and wow, the narrow slide won for me hands down. (As verified by the one and only, Ben Griffin!)

[hyperbolica]

Not all Conn slides are narrow. The 78/79h slides are pretty wide.

[Slidennis]

Not all Conn slides are narrow. The 78/79h slides are pretty wide.

If a 88H slide is narrow, try an Olds Super !!!

If some Elkies are duds, I have tried the reverse : I got a great 1990 Artist Symphony 88H bell, that is a real keeper when paired to a modern SL4747 slide (w/Marcellus leadpipe), very responsive and resonant...

I also had an early Abilene 8H bell paired to a SL2525 slide... What a nice combo this was, should have kept it...

[ACBEric]

I love my Elkhart 8H and 88H (one is 67 and the other is 69). These are my favorite horns to play - so much so that I actually had a dual bore slide custom built by BAC to fit them because I liked the sound so much I wanted to be able to use for jazz too (though I wanted it just a little more compact - thus the slide). I have played TR158 and liked it...and then went back to the 88H. I did experience "the eyes" things, where I played for a lesson before an audition and the teacher asked me what horn I was using (it was my 8H - because I did not need the trigger) and suggested I do the audition on a horn with a trigger so that it doesn't look like I am playing a "jazz horn" (because all straight horns are jazz horns? Now he knew why I was using the 8H because I did not need the trigger for the material but pointed out that the other brass faculty wouldn't know that it was still an orchestral horn.). I digress back to the point of 88H vs other horns. I have found sometimes that the 88H is the wrong horn for the moment - usually because no one else is playing one and the sound doesn't blend with the section. In that case I think having an alternative horn is good. I am very seriously considering getting an Adams TB1 with Gold Brass (I prefer the .55 gauge bell over the .60 but that is personal preference). I like the rotary valve. I have tried Shires and Edwards (though I will admit I am very curious to try the Shires Ralph Sauer model) and felt more comfortable with the Conn 88H. I find Getzen to be very comfortable to play and, like I said, I really enjoy the Adams (the big reason I would consider the Adams is the price point is very good at under 4 grand for a modern horn with hand made parts and bell - it also happens to be really fun and enjoyable to play and I like the sound and feel of the horn). So, I do not think that the 88H is better than, rather just different in a way that many people connect with and enjoy. However, while I enjoy it for my every day personal practice and playing I find that it does not always fit in the section and then I am trying to adjust my sound - which never really works - to fit where a different horn might actually offer the better solution.