Yamaha 356R

[Diana6]

After continuing to struggle a bit with a Benge 170 for jazz, my son picked up his Yam 356R and found that he sounds much better with it. He is using the Yam. N.Langren MP that he bought for the Benge as it gives him a really nice tone. Compared to the Benge, he says, and I can hear also, that the 356R is much easier to play well. He is a senior in high school, planning to play jazz in college as a non-music major. He made two recordings for his optional music supplements for his college applications with the Yamaha, His instructor is really pleased with them.

It could be that the Benge 170 is more of a pro horn that requires more practice to figure it out. It has a great sound, with lots of variation, but he could not control it well. He also sounded like he had trouble finding the notes?

So, he is going to use the Yamaha for college unless he puts in a lot of time with the Benge... or sells the Benge and his Olds Special to buy a King 3B. The Yamaha is an F att. and he does have trouble holding it for long periods of time.

We are looking at trying a hand strap for it. Does anyone know which strap fits it well?

The Get a Grip looks like a good solution if fitted correctly, but we don't know how it is on the 356R.

[calcbone]

While I do not have personal experience with many of the hand strap/etc. options that exist, Yamaha does make a hand strap that I would imagine fits their horns well. If you look at the pictures of it and use a little ingenuity, you can make something like it with a shoelace to test the concept of that type of strap before buying. I did exactly this once when I bought a new horn and my wrist needed a week or so to adjust to it.

I’m sure you will get better responses from some of the other contributors here.

Good luck!

[Matt K]

I recommend trying out the Neotech first. Its not too expensive and worked well for mine. Most options should work, the only problem with that horn is the lever is on the right side of the thumb, rather than the left. Many of the ergonomic tools are designed for the other way around. I'm thinking in particular the Shires might not work. That said, if the Neotech doesn't work, I might try to get an Ax Handle https://instrumentinnovations.com/ax-handle-420/ or the Greenhoe Thumbrest (https://www.virtuosityboston.com/greenh ... t-bar.html). I personally found the Greenhoes to work well with Yamahas in the past (including one I play now). The Greenhoe can be tried first (does not require soldering) and then soldered on. Others may be "not permanent" in that they are screwed or clamped to something (such as the Ax Handle, etc.). The downside to these is that they, well, aren't fixed. Once something is soldered its a lot sturdier... so the Greenhoe gives you the ability to try it, find the right location, and then have it soldered exactly in that spot.

[OneTon]

Doug Elliott might solve the Benge problem with a mouthpiece that better matched the horn and player.

[Diana6]

I understand that a straight trombone would be best for jazz. That's why I bought him the Benge 170.

He has tried many mouthpieces (Marc. Jiggs, 7C, 6 1/2 AL, Yam. 48, 12C's) with the Benge, but something different about it. Maybe the slotting is more sensitive, as sometimes it sounds like he hits flats and sharps? I don't know, I'm not a musician, and my son can't figure it out. It's harder for him to play well and control, that's what I have observed. As soon as he switched to the Yam. he instantly sounded and played better...with the same Yam N. Langren MP (which he likes a lot).

[HermanGerman]

The Benge is a very nice Jazz horn, not much different from the KIng 3B. I had a few 3B and a Benge 170. It is a tad smaller but plays nearly the same. In fact it is a KIng!
I would keep the Benge and a 12C. It may take some more weeks but at some point it will work..
I hope he gets lesson from a trombone teacher!!

Here is a great video that my help to solve some issues. It is a tuba video (one octave lower) but the exercises are very helpful. Even more helpful than mouthpiece or trombone choice....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1RdsSWDMcs

[Matt K]

I played a 356 as my main axe for several years, including to play lead on sparingly. Personally, I'd probably prefer it over the Benge 170 if it plays similar to other horns that fit that description. Not every horn meshes well with everyone and peopels' preference may change over time. It isn't that unusual for a "student" horn, especially a Yamaha, to be better than a "professional" horn on an individual basis.

If your son does do music in college, equipment choice is usually something that the professor will help them sort out. Certainly you wouldn't want to think that the equipment is the sole contributor to your ability. But on the other hand, the equipment isn't totally inconsequential. Doing even a cursory selection as you progress musically is usually warranted, and it may well lead to unexpected configurations. For example, when I was a freshman in college, I would have considered the mouthpiece I've now played on for almost a decade at this point to be comically gargantuan.

But it sounds like where they are now is pretty stable, fortunately. The 356 may well be all they ever need depending on what type of playing they do, so if you can figure out the ergonomics of it, that horn could last them the rest of their career.

[OneTon]

The Benge is a very nice Jazz horn, not much different from the KIng 3B. I had a few 3B and a Benge 170. It is a tad smaller but plays nearly the same. In fact it is a KIng!
I would keep the Benge and a 12C. It may take some more weeks but at some point it will work..
I hope he gets lesson from a trombone teacher!!

A Benge 170 and 12C are a good choice. He will have to play on the 12C for a while to get used to it. It is a jump from the Nils to the 12C. A semester or two semesters to get him used to it is even better.

[TromboneMonkey]

With respect to the other commenters, I disagree with the idea of keeping on the Benge.

Why force a square peg into a round hole? You say that the Yamaha both sounds and feels better... that to me indicates that it's a better fit for him, regardless of the "pro" vs. "intermediate" distinctions. If he likes it he should use it.

It would almost certainly be quicker and easier to build up forearm, bicep/brachialis, deltoid, and abdominal strength/endurance to hold the horn comfortably (easy enough at his age), than it would be to get used to a horn that is hard for him to play (which is most likely an exercise in futility).

I see no need to force one's way into a horn that is suboptimal for him when the evidence is right in front of you that there's a better option.

As with any equipment decision, he should play on what makes it easiest for him to sound the way he wants when he's playing the stuff that he wants to play. Based on your description, that's the Yamaha.

[Posaunus]

Diana,

I agree with TromboneMonkey. There's no real reason for your son to force himself to adapt to the Benge 170, when he seems comfortable with the Yamaha 356R. Yamaha makes fine trombones. If he wants a straight trombone for jazz at this point in his young adventure, he could try a Yamaha "student" or "intermediate" 0.500" bore trombone - they are widely available at a reasonable price.

The Yamaha Nils Landgren mouthpiece is a good choice. If it works for him, he can play it successfully on any small-bore tenor trombone.

The Benge 170 (made in the King factory) has a fine reputation. But perhaps not for everyone. They are rare and somewhat desirable; you should have no problem selling it on TromboneChat, to raise the funds for a different instrument if he "needs" one.

Good luck to you both.

[Bach5G]

“As soon as he switched to the Yam. he instantly sounded and played better...with the same Yam N. Langren MP (which he likes a lot).” Speaks for itself?

‘My son picked up his Yam 356R and found that he sounds much better with it… He is using the Yam. N.Langren MP that he bought for the Benge as it gives him a really nice tone. Compared to the Benge, he says, and I can hear also, that the 356R is much easier to play well.” Your answer may be right there.

Re: straps etc. A strap costs $15 (Yamaha) to $20 (Leather specialties) at Hickey. They say the LS is softer leather, comes in two colours, and two lengths. Hickey could advise re: proper length. Everything else, Neotech, Axe Handle, GAG etc, is more expensive. The GAG is a brilliant idea but maybe could use a design tweak. I had difficulty fitting it to my bass trombone and with my Shires single trigger tenor the horn becomes a little nose heavy. I use a strap on both horns.

[Kdanielsen]

356R vs. Benge is the most Trombone Chat topic I’ve ever seen. It’s like asking Trombone Chat to choose its favorite child.

[spencercarran]

I understand that a straight trombone would be best for jazz. That's why I bought him the Benge 170.

That's certainly the predominant fashion, but if he sounds better on the Yamaha, there's nothing at all wrong with sticking with the Yamaha. And especially as a non-major, having the option to use the F attachment when needed adds a lot of versatility.

As others have said, it should be easy to sell the Benge; plenty of people (including some forum members) would be interested in a horn like that. If it's just not a good fit to your son's playing then IMO it makes more sense to pass it along to someone else than to spend a lot of time and effort fighting with it.

[RConrad]

I use a Neotech grip on my bass which is fine but I'm probably gonna switch to a Leather Specialties strap for everything. Aside from that if the 356R works well for him there's no reason to force trying to make the 170 work. Lots of good small bore horns out there to try.

[HermanGerman]

I am a fulltime professional trombone teacher and player (playing and teaching also trumpet and tuba) for 32 years and I am disappointed with the recommendation of that trombone with f attach for a young trombone player.
The Yamaha may "feel good" and it is a nice horn but this is not my point.
A larger horn feels good for players with embochure issues. Also too big mouthpieces with a deep cup.
There is a kind of top/down from trumpet (very demanding because of the small bore) to tuba (kind of easy blowing with a BIG bore).
So in many brass bands the "lucky lips" kids play trumpet and the kids who have problems go to the larger bore brass.
There is no pill against an unbalanced embochure. And also: no trombone..
For a strong health you have to exercise, for a strong performance on a musical instrument you need the same.
A M, ML or L bore trombone has to do with the musical surroundings you performing in but not with comfort!
What feels better is better? NO!...IMO

[afugate]

It could be that the Benge 170 is more of a pro horn that requires more practice to figure it out. It has a great sound, with lots of variation, but he could not control it well. He also sounded like he had trouble finding the notes?

I wonder if this is a slotting issue caused by damage to the horn? Doesn't have to be visible damage, of course. For example: a damaged the leadpipe venturi.

Might be worth having a teacher or local professional try out the horn and see how it plays for them? If it's damaged and easily fixed, that does mean you'd have two horns, but the 356 is a very versatile horn. That might make it worth keeping two. (so sayeth one of us who suffers from GAS [gear acquisition syndrome] )

--Andy in OKC

[Matt K]

I am a fulltime professional trombone teacher and player (playing and teaching also trumpet and tuba) for 32 years and I am disappointed with the recommendation of that trombone with f attach for a young trombone player.
The Yamaha may "feel good" and it is a nice horn but this is not my point.
A larger horn feels good for players with embochure issues. Also too big mouthpieces with a deep cup.
There is a kind of top/down from trumpet (very demanding because of the small bore) to tuba (kind of easy blowing with a BIG bore).
So in many brass bands the "lucky lips" kids play trumpet and the kids who have problems go to the larger bore brass.
There is no pill against an unbalanced embochure. And also: no trombone..
For a strong health you have to exercise, for a strong performance on a musical instrument you need the same.
A M, ML or L bore trombone has to do with the musical surroundings you performing in but not with comfort!
What feels better is better? NO!...IMO

The 356 is only .025" bigger in one tube than the Benge and the Landgren is like a slightly shallower 7C. It isn't like people here are suggesting he pull a Slide Hampton and play a 1.5G on a Bach 50.

[TomRiker]

I am a fulltime professional trombone teacher and player (playing and teaching also trumpet and tuba) for 32 years and I am disappointed with the recommendation of that trombone with f attach for a young trombone player.
The Yamaha may "feel good" and it is a nice horn but this is not my point.
A larger horn feels good for players with embochure issues. Also too big mouthpieces with a deep cup.
There is a kind of top/down from trumpet (very demanding because of the small bore) to tuba (kind of easy blowing with a BIG bore).
So in many brass bands the "lucky lips" kids play trumpet and the kids who have problems go to the larger bore brass.
There is no pill against an unbalanced embochure. And also: no trombone..
For a strong health you have to exercise, for a strong performance on a musical instrument you need the same.
A M, ML or L bore trombone has to do with the musical surroundings you performing in but not with comfort!
What feels better is better? NO!...IMO

The 356 is only .025" bigger in one tube than the Benge and the Landgren is like a slightly shallower 7C. It isn't like people here are suggesting he pull a Slide Hampton and play a 1.5G on a Bach 50.

I'd agree. Also his goal is to play jazz in college not be a pro. Since that horn and that mouthpiece aren't wildly inappropriate IMO what feels better is better as long as it's moving you towards your goals. In other words if two setups give you the same range, flexibility, and a good tone (obviously it won't be the same tone) go with the one that feels better.

[Diana6]

I would have his instructor try out the Benge, but... covid. He isn't even having lessons now.

My son needed to record 2 jazz pieces for his music-arts supplement for college app., so, he had to choose the trombone that he could play best at this moment. His instructor thought the recordings were great, and my son was also happy with them. He will definitely keep the 356R, maybe for jazz, but he might also want to still play in an orchestra/symphony in college too.

When he comes up for air after college applications, sports, and schoolwork, he'll work with the Benge to see if he can improve. Maybe a lesson with Doug E.

[afugate]

My son needed to record 2 jazz pieces for his music-arts supplement for college app., so, he had to choose the trombone that he could play best at this moment. His instructor thought the recordings were great, and my son was also happy with them. He will definitely keep the 356R, maybe for jazz, but he might also want to still play in an orchestra/symphony in college too.

Smart youngster. This is almost always the correct choice.

--Andy in OKC

[spencercarran]

My son needed to record 2 jazz pieces for his music-arts supplement for college app., so, he had to choose the trombone that he could play best at this moment. His instructor thought the recordings were great, and my son was also happy with them. He will definitely keep the 356R, maybe for jazz, but he might also want to still play in an orchestra/symphony in college too.

Another point in favor of the Yamaha. In a non-majors ensemble (campus wind band or some orchestras) he could probably make it work even though it's smaller than most trombonists would use for classical music.

[Matt K]

Another advantage to the Yamaha is that it will be compatible with all of the other medium bore Yamaha parts, so if orchestra is in mind, it would be possible to get say, a YSL646 or 640 w/ no F attachment and he can use the 356 bell section with the 525/525 slide or the 500/525 slide with the straight bell section when it is contextually appropriate. The 525/525 is on the "small" side for orchestral playing but, as noted, if the goal is college ensembles and amateur playing (a term which I absolutely do not mean in a disparaging fashion, by the way), a 525 horn is frequently sufficient.

[Diana6]

Are there any 8" straight bell sections, Yamaha or another brand that would fit with the slide of a 356R?

Do any manufacturers sell just the bell sections?

[Matt K]

Are there any 8" straight bell sections, Yamaha or another brand that would fit with the slide of a 356R?

Do any manufacturers sell just the bell sections?

I don't think Yamaha would sell you just the bell but you can get them used for sure. Interestingly, the medium bore Yamaha "professional" models are all 8.5" bells. If you wanted just the bell I might put out an ad looking for one of these bell sections:

YSL445 (8" bell)
YSL630 (8.5" bell)
YSL645 (8.5" bell)

I think there are two that I'm forgetting.

[Klimchak]

Japanese market:
353OR and 455G

Both are essentially the straight versions of the the 356

[noordinaryjoe]

Contact DJ Kennedy on this forum. He has DEEP inventory on used horns and just sold me a Yamaha single-valve bass bell section that I was looking for. (he had 2!)

[brtnats]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I’m willing to bet he sounds better on the Yamaha because almost ALL developing students sound “better” on a bigger instrument with a bigger bell and throat. It’s a lot easier to make a larger instrument sound rounder and prettier, which is why lots of school band programs put trombonists on larger instruments.

The Landgren mouthpiece was designed for a .500/.525 dual bore Yamaha, and I’m not a bit surprised that it works well in one. I played on one for several years, and that large throat ultimately made me switch.

The 356R is wonderful. It’s also heavy, and the one I had was unbalanced (front-heavy). You’ll specifically want to try grips that mount into the bell section (I used a Greenhoe rest bar), but it’s never going to feel effortless because of how the trombone is built.

Your son shouldn’t be making any major changes on anything without direct input, virtually or in-person, from a teacher who knows your son’s playing. Don’t worry about what horn he’s playing NOW, unless there’s a mechanical issue that’s holding him back. The work to be a good trombonist and musician is a lot less dependent on the horn than the surroundings and the mentality.

[Diana6]

Well, it sort of holding him back I think. In my observation, the weight and balance plus the ergonomics = practice time cut short. I am thinking that a 891z might be a good solution, and keep the 356R also at this time. I don't see many used ones right now, but no hurry. I have a few trombones to sell and I can start saving for one.
Any thoughts on going from the 356R to a 891Z for jazz.

[imsevimse]

The Nils Landgren mouthpiece is great and so is a 891Z. That is the trombone and mouthpiece I play. The 891Z is probably going to be more expensive because it's new and a pro horn, but I suppose they can be found used too if you are lucky. It is a very flexible instrument with the same bore as a King 3B, but In my opinion much better.

/Tom

[Matt K]

Well, it sort of holding him back I think. In my observation, the weight and balance plus the ergonomics = practice time cut short. I am thinking that a 891z might be a good solution, and keep the 356R also at this time. I don't see many used ones right now, but no hurry. I have a few trombones to sell and I can start saving for one.
Any thoughts on going from the 356R to a 891Z for jazz.

Don't let an idealized perfect be the enemy of the good. If both teacher and student are happy, I wouldn't worry about it one bit. At least in the short-term. Save up for college; when they study, they will likely have slightly different needs one way or the other. I made the "mistake" of purchasing a new pro horn before college and then improved the first year or so and the horn I was playing on was very much not a good fit for me (and, to this day, still is not a very good fit when I play similar horns of that model). If I had waited, I'd have been able to afford something that suited me better, sooner.

The Yamaha are great instruments and the 891Z is no exception. But there are also other great small bore Yamaha horns. And not everyone who plays jazz plays on something that small. The 891 is great, but also the 600 series such as the 691 are great, but different. Usually, they're a touch cheaper. Not to mention all the other fantastic horns that aren't yamaha like the Conn 6H, King 2B/2b+/3B, arguably Bach 16, etc. In my opinion, it would be way better to develop where he is now, study in college, and then optimize in a few years.

That said, that assumes that the ergonomic issues can be resolved. There are a LOT of good solutions out there and they are way cheaper than a new trombone.

[Trav1s]

I think each brand of horn has it's own personality and I know which I gravitate towards. After 30 years of having fun and trying many different brands, I find myself returning to those that fit me or feel natural to me. In my case, the Benge and King trombones really never worked for me and I find the Yamaha line quite natural to play.

If it were my child I would sell the Benge 170 and look for a Yamaha that would fit the bill. Allow him to play as many as possible in person with the Landgren mouthpiece for the audition process. I think the 891Z would be a great horn but think an older, used Yamaha would do the work and be easier on the budget.

I have a hard time justifying any new horn due to depreciation.

[PaulT]

Diana,

I have a Yamaha 891Z (.508 bore). It is a superb instrument and I love it.

I also have a Jupiter 1632 RGL-XT (.500 bore). It is a superb instrument and I love it. (note, Jupiter also makes a 1634, a .508 bore instrument that also comes in both yellow brass and rose brass)

And I have a recommendation you could consider. The Yamaha 356 your son has is a superb instrument and it will prove to be a very flexible instrument that can cover a wide range of applications as he continues on horn ( great horn for pit(musical) use, small brass groups, city band).

But, if he wants to try something else, a light-weight small bore jazz horn, for instance, the Jupiter 1632 is as good as it gets. The horn really is light, yet it can cook up a storm. Mine is just a joy to play. And 1632 will be a significantly different horn than his 356; variety, right?

And here is the deal, Quinn the Eskimo currently has several Jupiter 1632s for sale on ebay, any one of which he will sell for $1150 or so (go best offer route). Some have rose brass, some are gold brass bells (more on that later).

I have purchased four horns from Quinn and every one of them was pristine, mint, like new, wonderful! (I am not related to him, have never met him). My experience with Quinn is typical and is shared by others on this forum.

Of the four horns I purchased from Quinn, two were Jupiter 1632s, one with a rose brass bell (the 1632 "RGL-LT"GL-LT) the other with a gold brass bell (the 1632 "GL-LT"). I loved both horns, but ended up keeping the rose brass "RGL-LT" and returned the gold brass "GL-LT".

I don't have a recommendation between the two, both are wonderful, yet both are quite different. I was, frankly, amazed at the difference in sound between the two. The gold brass horn had a light, crisp, pure sound and would light up with a thought. The rose brass horn had a warmer, rounder, sound with more overtones, but it would also light up quite nicely. I played the two for a week and darn near kept them both, but I just didn't want to complicate my life with too many horns I wanted to play at the same time (as my 891 was also firmly well entrenched in my play rotation).

Here is a link to an excellent review of the Jupiter 1634 LTRL (rose brass): https://youtu.be/YSoJUDRQDcg

Here is a link to Quinn's 1632 offerings on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R ... acat=16212

Quinn tells it straight, ships quick, and makes returns easy.

[PaulT]

I have four Yamaha horns. The Neotech grip works great on all of them. I would not play a F-horn without a good grip, and the Neotech is a great grip. Link: https://youtu.be/GrHrWs3ZZ8A

[PaulT]

Unrelated, but... Keith is a great guy!

[PaulT]

John Fedchock on the Jupiter 1632 he helped develop with Jupiter:

https://youtu.be/Qe9cydEUSlA

[PaulT]

As I mentioned earlier, there is also a Jupiter 1634 XO, which has a .508 bell. It sounds like a great horn. They are a newer release and I haven't seen as many of them for sale. (though I don't check that often).

If I only could have one horn, it would probably be a .508. But, if I already had a 356R and wanted a second horn, I would go with the .500.

When it is just me in my basement, no band or group play, it's my .500 all the way. But, when I am playing with other instruments, then I start to prefer my .508 (depending on how many and what we are up to, but the versatility of a .508 is tough to beat).

[PaulT]

I'm done!

[spencercarran]

I have a hard time justifying any new horn due to depreciation.

Yup. Can't really imagine ever buying new unless I was in the position of having my dream horn custom built.

[Matt K]

I have a hard time justifying any new horn due to depreciation.

Yup. Can't really imagine ever buying new unless I was in the position of having my dream horn custom built.

I almost did once. I had sold a few items and I was at ATW in maybe 2013(?). The Marcinkiewicz horns were on display and they had one there that was incredibly tempting. But I also couldn't justify dropping that kind of bread as I was a student at the time. Seems that they've since ceased producton of the trombones in the meantime which is probably better for the sake of my marriage.

[Matt K]

There’s a https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Yellow- ... 632-2357-0

YSL445 for sale now on eBay. It’s a little on the pricier side imo with the buy it now.

[Diana6]

Thanks for all the great advice.

We are looking at the XO 1634, Yamaha 891Z, and King 3B. It seems like the XO is really well liked, lighter weight, and fairly easy to play. Not sure if the yellow brass or rose brass 1634 would be best for college jazz ensembles.

I'm also a bit concerned about resale value, but we are looking for a used one or a demo. I am within driving distance to Dillons, so that might be the best way to make a decision. I don't know if you can try their instruments right now though.

I will buy a Neotech grip for the 356R.

[JohnD]

@Diana, years ago, I had a NOS Benge 170, did not like the way it played. Tried a 356r, great horn. I'm just no King guy . It is by no means easy to predict what horn will fit that very player.
After 55 years of trying horns, I finally settled on a nice Bach 42B. Many poeple say, you can't play BigBand lead on it. Sure, you can. I could bury the band with it.... ...it all depends on the player-mouthpiece- horn combination. If your son is fine right now on the 356R, he should go for it. Never change a running system. Sell the Benge 170 and never look back. The term "pro-horn" often seems to be a marketing thing, IMHO. Yamahas are high -quality horns, whereas their cheaper models may surpass pro models of other manufacturers...

[imsevimse]

@Diana, years ago, I had a NOS Benge 170, did not like the way it played. Tried a 356r, great horn. I'm just no King guy . It is by no means easy to predict what horn will fit that very player.
After 55 years of trying horns, I finally settled on a nice Bach 42B. Many poeple say, you can't play BigBand lead on it. Sure, you can. I could bury the band with it.... ...it all depends on the player-mouthpiece- horn combination.

I would add it depends a lot on the other players in the section too and also what sound you want from the trombone section. You can play big band lead on a bass trombone or an euphonium too. You could even have the entire section play bass trombones and I'm sure a .547 could bury a big band in the hands of a strong player if that's something that needs to be done.

Where I come from there aren't many professional big bands anymore but back in the days when they existed the tradition was to play small bore trombones for first second and third and then have the larger trombone on fourth.

It did not so much have to do with if the part is playable or not on a .547 horn. It is the same principle that a symphonic trombone section follows when they have an alto on top followed by a tenor on second and a bass on third. A big band also benefits from smaller horns on top and larger horns in the bottom. It just makes it easier to blend.

This convention is so strong over here that I know my colleagues would dislike if I brought a .547 bore even for second part to our band. Of course I could scale down and use an 11C-ish mouthpiece with that large bore and use that to make it play smaller but then whats the point of using that large horn?

I'm certain in some bands nobody care what horns you choose to play but in my case the choice is not entirely my own. My colleagues are an important part of the equation too and their wish is something I consider too. As a sub I just have to follow the conversation to play smaller horns on top and larger horns on bottom or else I will not get that second call, but of course anything goes I suppose. If I look in my shelves with big band records the trombone sections do follow the convention with smaller horns on top and larger horns at the bottom every time and I do not have a record that I know of where first trombone is on lead on a .547 horn. I'm sure there are examples, but not in my shelf so it is not something that's common.

In this case the op needs a jazz horn so my advice is to concentrate on the smaller ones.

/Tom

[Bach5G]

The trombonists in the Dave Holland Big Band were all on .547s. What Goes Round and Overtime. Jonathan Arons, Robin Eubanks and Josh Roseman on Bach, Yamaha and Shires respectively?

I played lead a couple of times on my .547. A lot of work, maybe harder than it needed to be I thought.

[imsevimse]

The trombonists in the Dave Holland Big Band were all on .547s. What Goes Round and Overtime.

I played lead a couple of times on my .547. A lot of work, maybe harder than it needed to be I thought.

Of course, but then I suppose that's a decision they all agree on. I have no record with that band, but I've heard that example beeng referenced to before. Not common, but exists of course.

/Tom

[PaulT]

whoops

[PaulT]

whoops

[PaulT]

Looking back, I got turned around a couple times in my previous post concerning the new Jupiter horns. So...

1632 Gl-LT. .500 bore. Yellow brass bell.
1632 RGL-LT. .500 bore. Rose brass bell.

1634 GL-LT .508. Yellow brass bell.
1634 RGL-LT .508 Rose brass bell.

The 1632 (.500 bore) has been out for five years or so (a guess that should be pretty close). The 1634 (.508) has only been out a year and half or so (maybe two, I don't know, but, again, I suspect I'm pretty close). This could mean that there aren't a lot of 1632's available used and even fewer 1634's. But, what there is should be nice.

What I would do (because it what I have done). For playing solo, I would get the 1632 RGL-LT (.500 rose brass). For playing with others in small to medium groups and bands, I would go with .508 yellow brass, such as either the Yamaha 891 or the Jupiter 1634 GL-LT.

And, this I have done and would do again and again without further thought or regret, I would grab one of those 1632's that Quinn is selling on ebay. I would offer $1,000 -$1,100. (worked before, I expect it would again). Those 1632's are just so much fun, you will play more. You will play for life. It's a deal that can't be beat.

[Diana6]

After watching this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSoJUDRQDcg
we thought that the 1634GL-LT would be the one to look for. Since we don't know exactly what my son will be involved with in College, probably jazz ensemble, big band, combos, the .508 sounds more versatile.

Can you tell me how the 1632 compares to the Yam 891Z? When you say the 1632 is more for playing solo, it makes me think the 1634 would be the better choice because he will likely be playing in groups and bands.

[PaulT]

If your son could only have one horn and wanted to play in small to medium-sized groups jazz and dance bands, I would say go with .508 bore Yamaha 891Z. ( I think the Yamaha 891 is the perfect horn).

But, and this should be caped, so I will, BUT, you son already has a really great horn, his 356R.

The 356 is a .500/.525 dual bore. While some will quibble, that basically ends up being .512 bore which is a perfect sized horn if, for example, your son ends up playing third book in medium-sizedjazz/dance/pop band that has three to five trombones. It is a perfect size if, say, he ends up playing first or second trombone in a city band somewhere as an adult. It is a great horn if he ever plays in a pit band for school or community musicals. It is just a good, flexible horn to have. (a horn many wish they did)

And given that your son has this great "big jazz horn", if you are looking for a second horn, I would look for a "small jazz horn" that will complement what he has very nicely. The Jupiter 1632 is a great small jazz horn. If he ends up playing in a brass quartet or quintet that covers pop and jazz, the .500 bore 1632 is a perfect horn. If he ends up playing 1st or 2nd in a school jazz/pop band or 1st in a city band somewhere, the 1632 is a perfect horn. If he ends up playing with a dance band in clubs for fun or money, the .500 bore 1632 is perfect (especially if mic'd, as solos would be).

So, if you are keeping the 356R, (which you most definitely should), going with a .500 bore rather than a .508 will just cover more musical ground. He will be set up perfect for anything other than orchestra or an overly fussy concert band. And when your son is playing by himself for fun and practice, odds are he will love that light, snappy 1632 and do some hot cooking on his own.