Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

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bgosvig
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Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by bgosvig »

Hi All:

This is my first post here. I'm primarily a trumpet player. But, I collect brass instruments and just acquired a pretty Olds Opera (Symphony?) O-25 trombone (currently on the way to me).

I'm not a good enough trombone player to properly assess the instrument.

Has anyone here had experience with this horn? If so, what are your impressions?

Thanks!
chromebone
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by chromebone »

They’re good horns, probably worth about $500-800 depending on its condition.
It was developed by Robert Marsteller of the LA philharmonic, but they never really caught on in classical circles. Some Jazz players played them like Curtis Fuller and spiritual/Christian player Bill Pearce played one beautifully.

The biggest problem with them is they take an odd shank mouthpiece; an Olds mouthpiece, which are uncommon, will work best with it, otherwise it’s hard to find one that will fit the leadpipe correctly. If that is a problem, you may consider having the leadpipe pulled, (although it’s a slightly larger bore than average, so you would have to check with a tech to see is that would work), and trying a modern leadpipe so you can play a wider variety of mouthpieces.
Posaunus
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by Posaunus »

I played one for a while in the early 1970s and was very happy with it - but it wasn't mine. Returned it to its owner, and replaced it with a Conn 88H. A few years ago I purchased an O-25 from the same era, in excellent condition, for nostalgia reasons, and found that I still love it. Red brass bell, 0.554" bore, decent rotor, and (as chromebone noted) slightly small mouthpiece receiver. But I have successfully played it with "standard" large-shank mouthpieces, though they don't fit perfectly. See if you can get your hands on an Olds 20 mouthpiece - about the size of a Bach 5GS but with a deeper cup, and the shank fits the receiver perfectly.

Shortly after its introduction, Marsteller (who would have promoted it) retired, then died, and the Olds company did not last much longer. These were definitely underrated trombones, and well-suited for orchestral use. I would think a reasonable price would be $800-$1,200+ depending on condition, but - as I noted - they are under-valued. :( I think you're lucky to own one.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by hyperbolica »

I love all the Olds horns I've owned. They have a bit of a cult following, not everybody loved Olds, and a lot of younger people have never played one, since they've been out of business for 40 some years.

All the nickel-silver on them gives them kind of a unique response, but that's the Olds trombone signature. They get judged by the student Ambassadors, but their pro horns were the memorable part of what they did. Bill Pearce played the Opera, but George Roberts helped solidify the Olds name with the P-24g.

The Opera has 0.554 bore, most large tenors are 0.547, and basses are 0.562. They were silver plated or lacquered with a rose bell and nickel-silver attachment tubing. The valves were often criticized. The springs are in the valve rather than on the lever, and the valves themselves were a little small. The lever was in front of the bell brace in the fashion of King trombones, which was just another quirk.

You can find a bit of history about Olds in general here: http://itsabear.com/horns/horns.html Also, there are a couple of Olds experts here who might chime in.
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officermayo
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by officermayo »

hyperbolica wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:25 am I love all the Olds horns I've owned. They have a bit of a cult following, not everybody loved Olds, and a lot of younger people have never played one, since they've been out of business for 40 some years.

They get judged by the student Ambassadors, but their pro horns were the memorable part of what they did. Bill Pearce played the Opera, but George Roberts helped solidify the Olds name with the P-24g.
Most folks know I'm a member of that Olds cult you mentioned and I've learned a lot from the It's A Bear! website.
Ambassadors weren't originally a student line - just a lower priced pro horn. Every week I take a different horn from my Olds herd to big band rehearsal. Two of the section members are music college professors and they marvel at how well my Olds bones sound and they always want to play a bit on them before rehearsal. I'd stack the LA and early Fullerton horns against any pro horns out there.
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by Langheck »

Is there any difference between the Opera models that have a red brass bell and the ones with a nickel bell beyond the bell material?
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JohnL
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by JohnL »

chromebone wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:59 pmSome Jazz players played them like Curtis Fuller and spiritual/Christian player Bill Pearce played one beautifully.
As far as I know, both Curtis Fuller and Bill Pearce played on O-15's (all nickel silver, straight tenor).
hyperbolica wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:25 am...but George Roberts helped solidify the Olds name with the P-24g.
To the best of my knowledge, George Roberts didn't play the P-24G (he played the "George Roberts Model" S-22 and later P-22), nor have I ever seen any Olds literature linking GR directly to the P-24G (or any other Olds double).
hyperbolica wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:25 amThe Opera has 0.554 bore, most large tenors are 0.547, and basses are 0.562. They were silver plated or lacquered with a rose bell and nickel-silver attachment tubing. The valves were often criticized. The springs are in the valve rather than on the lever, and the valves themselves were a little small. The lever was in front of the bell brace in the fashion of King trombones, which was just another quirk.
O-15 Opera "Premiere": Straight tenor, all nickel silver
O-115 Opera "Fanfare" - Straight tenor, all yellow brass
O-23 Opera: F-attachment tenor, all nickel silver
O-25: F-attachment tenor; rose brass bell, balance nickel silver
The O-25 is clearly the successor to the Opera line, but I've never seen it referred to as an "Opera" in Olds literature.

There are no Opera trombone models listed in the 1957 catalog. The O-15 and O-115 appear in the 1958 catalog (no bore is mentioned).

The 1960 price list has the O-15 and O-115 listed (just model and price) and the O-23. Interestingly, there's a fair blurb on the O-23; my theory is that it wasn't in the current catalog, so they put more information on the price list (they did the same thing with a few other models, like the O-41 and O-49 French horns).

The 1961 and 1962 catalogs list the O-15 and O-115 as being .547" bore (no bore is given for the O-23, but it's a safe bet that it was the same as the other Operas).

The next catalog I have is from 1966; the O-115 is gone and the O-15 is listed as .554" (once again, no bore is given for the O-23). I have a 1967 catalog and a 1970 trombone-only brochure the provides the same information (the 1970 brochure does give the bore for the O-23 as .554" and the f-attachment bore as .565").

By 1973, the Opera models are gone and the O-25 has appeared. It's listed at .554" (rotor .565") and the materials are specified as "Solid, nickel-silver; Red-brass Bell". The O-25 is still around in the 1978 price list, so it was probably still available up until the end (mid-1979).

The "small valve" issue was something with some Olds bass trombones (S-20, S-22, S-23, and S-24G); the Operas and the O-25 have larger valves (for their bore). I'll post more on the valves later; I want to take a quick look at my O-23 first.
officermayo wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:57 amAmbassadors weren't originally a student line - just a lower priced pro horn.
Ambassadors were always built on the same machinery by the same people to the same standards as the higher models, but they were clearly targeted at the student market ("Designed for the serious young musician"). The blurbs on the trumpets and cornets in the late 1940's make a point of the instrument's sturdiness.

EDIT: Fixed a typo. O-115's were yellow brass.
Last edited by JohnL on Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bgosvig
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by bgosvig »

chromebone wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:59 pm They’re good horns, probably worth about $500-800 depending on its condition.
It was developed by Robert Marsteller of the LA philharmonic, but they never really caught on in classical circles. Some Jazz players played them like Curtis Fuller and spiritual/Christian player Bill Pearce played one beautifully.

The biggest problem with them is they take an odd shank mouthpiece; an Olds mouthpiece, which are uncommon, will work best with it, otherwise it’s hard to find one that will fit the leadpipe correctly. If that is a problem, you may consider having the leadpipe pulled, (although it’s a slightly larger bore than average, so you would have to check with a tech to see is that would work), and trying a modern leadpipe so you can play a wider variety of mouthpieces.
Thanks for this overview. It's most helpful. The horn is supposed to come with a mouthpiece, but I'm not sure if it's original. Great info!
bgosvig
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by bgosvig »

Posaunus wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:38 pm I played one for a while in the early 1970s and was very happy with it - but it wasn't mine. Returned it to its owner, and replaced it with a Conn 88H. A few years ago I purchased an O-25 from the same era, in excellent condition, for nostalgia reasons, and found that I still love it. Red brass bell, 0.554" bore, decent rotor, and (as chromebone noted) slightly small mouthpiece receiver. But I have successfully played it with "standard" large-shank mouthpieces, though they don't fit perfectly. See if you can get your hands on an Olds 20 mouthpiece - about the size of a Bach 5GS but with a deeper cup, and the shank fits the receiver perfectly.

Shortly after its introduction, Marsteller (who would have promoted it) retired, then died, and the Olds company did not last much longer. These were definitely underrated trombones, and well-suited for orchestral use. I would think a reasonable price would be $800-$1,200+ depending on condition, but - as I noted - they are under-valued. :( I think you're lucky to own one.
Thanks, Posaunus. Nice to hear this review from someone's who's owned and played the horn. Sounds like you really enjoy the instrument. I'll be on the lookout for an Olds 20 mouthpiece. Much appreciated!
bgosvig
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by bgosvig »

hyperbolica wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:25 am I love all the Olds horns I've owned. They have a bit of a cult following, not everybody loved Olds, and a lot of younger people have never played one, since they've been out of business for 40 some years.

All the nickel-silver on them gives them kind of a unique response, but that's the Olds trombone signature. They get judged by the student Ambassadors, but their pro horns were the memorable part of what they did. Bill Pearce played the Opera, but George Roberts helped solidify the Olds name with the P-24g.

The Opera has 0.554 bore, most large tenors are 0.547, and basses are 0.562. They were silver plated or lacquered with a rose bell and nickel-silver attachment tubing. The valves were often criticized. The springs are in the valve rather than on the lever, and the valves themselves were a little small. The lever was in front of the bell brace in the fashion of King trombones, which was just another quirk.

You can find a bit of history about Olds in general here: http://itsabear.com/horns/horns.html Also, there are a couple of Olds experts here who might chime in.
That's an excellent and exhaustive list of Olds horns. Although the O-25 isn't listed, somebody did a lot of research to come up with all that data.

Interesting to know about the springs inside the valve rather than on the outside. I'll be sure to check the valve function when it arrives. Sounds like it also has an unusually large bore (the same approach Olds took with their "Opera" trumpet - which many love).

I believe this horn has the rose-colored bell, along with brass and nickel-silver elsewhere. Thanks for all!
bgosvig
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by bgosvig »

JohnL:

I'm impressed by your detailed knowledge of Olds line and their history. The depth of knowledge on this forum is formidable.

I also have an Olds '55 Ambassador trumpet, among others (very early Fullerton model). These were also supposed to be machined to the same fine tolerances as the pro Studio, Special, Recording and Mendez trumpets. The Ambassador plays far beyond most student horns, with surprisingly good slotting, projection and tonal color.

Question: Is it correct to call the O-25 the "Opera" model, or should it be referred to as the "Symphonic" model, as some others have suggested?
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officermayo
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by officermayo »

officermayo wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:57 amAmbassadors weren't originally a student line - just a lower priced pro horn.
Ambassadors were always built on the same machinery by the same people to the same standards as the higher models, but they were clearly targeted at the student market ("Designed for the serious young musician"). The blurbs on the trumpets and cornets in the late 1940's make a point of the instrument's sturdiness.
[/quote]

I should have chosen my words better. Yes, Ambassadors were "student" horns, but not like we think of them today (lower quality, etc). They were (as John said) made by the same craftsmen on the same machines.. Olds refused to put out a cheap, flimsy horn with the Olds name on it., They were not like some student horns today that are stenciles from China.
"When in doubt, blow out" - MGySgt M.A. Mayo, Marine Band

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bgosvig
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by bgosvig »

officermayo wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:47 pm I should have chosen my words better. Yes, Ambassadors were "student" horns, but not like we think of them today (lower quality, etc). They were (as John said) made by the same craftsmen on the same machines.. Olds refused to put out a cheap, flimsy horn with the Olds name on it., They were not like some student horns today that are stenciles from China.
I fully agree. Although Ambassadors were likely designed with more heft to better withstand student abuse, the build quality and valve response (on trumpets) were similar to that of their pro brethren. I'd consider a good, clean Ambassador equivalent to many of today's "step-up", or intermediate horns. I mostly notice a difference in the upper register, where my Ambassador can't quite match the brilliance, bloom and tonal purity of a true pro horn.
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by Posaunus »

Langheck wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:21 am Is there any difference between the Opera models that have a red brass bell and the ones with a nickel bell beyond the bell material?
Yes, there's quite a difference between these Olds large-bore F-attachment trombones. JohnL - a true Olds expert - has summarized the history quite well. One problem is that Olds was far from being consistent in its nomenclature and manufacturing specifications. The borrowed instrument that I played in the early 1970s had an 8½" red (or rose) brass bell, a 0.554" bore, and a large rotor valve. When I met Robert Marsteller, he claimed that he had "designed" that trombone. It was clearly engraved Olds Opera; I don't recall an engraved model number. The nostalgia-purchased instrument that I acquired a few years ago (and still play), manufactured in Fullerton in 1974, is clearly engraved Olds O-25, with no mention of a name, whether Opera or Symphony. Other than the engraving, it is (as far as my 50-year-old memory serves) identical to the early 1970's Opera.

As noted by JohnL, prior to the Marsteller-designed O-25 model, the name Opera was used by Olds for the O-23 model which had a "nickel-silver" bell, 0.547" bore, and a different (smaller) rotor valve. The O-25 was its successor, but apparently, except for a few like my borrowed instrument, was never labeled Opera.

I any case, I think the Olds O-25 was a fine trombone, and regret that Olds didn't survive to continue the development of large-bore, "symphonic" trombones. I hope that bgosvig enjoys owning and playing his.
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by JohnL »

Regarding valves...

My O-23 is s/n 405xxx, which dates it to around 2Q64. The linkage isn't the typical Olds design; it's more like an 88H (here's one like it at The Brass Exchange). I've seen later O-23's that have an Olds-style internal spring valve and behind-the-brace linkage. What I haven't seen is an Opera with the earlier Olds-style valve (with the spring in a housing behind the valve).

Comparing it to my O-25 (943xxx; early-mid 1976), the f-attachment tuning slides interchange and the valve casing is pretty close (the O-25 cap threads onto the O-23 casing, the O-23 cap goes onto the O-25 casing about two turns before binding).

and some other stuff:
The leadpipe on the O-23 is smaller; it's the same size as my late 1940's Olds doubles, while the O-25 pipe is the same size as my P-24G's.

Unfortunately, I can't compare the inner slide tubes; my O-25's original inners were shot, so now it's got a set of Bach 50 replacements.

It's not surprising that Olds would make the move from .547" to .554"; nothing else in the lineup used a .547" tube, but the S-20 and S-23 bass trombones both used .554" upper inner. They weren't going to downsize the bass trombones (they were small already), so it made sense to upsize the Operas a bit.

So, one has to wonder - which model(s) did Robert Marsteller design? He had a fairly long tenure with the LA Phil (25 years) starting soon after WWII and running into the early 1970's. When he told Posaunus "I designed that horn", was he referring to the O-25 in particular, or to the Opera series in general?
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by chromebone »

Here is a picture of Marsteller with an Olds. It looks to be from the late 50’s-early 60’s. He was already retired from the LA Phil when the 0-25 came out, so he’s probably referring to the 0-23 when he says that he “designed
that horn”
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by JohnL »

chromebone wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:08 pm Here is a picture of Marsteller with an Olds. It looks to be from the late 50’s-early 60’s. He was already retired from the LA Phil when the 0-25 came out, so he’s probably referring to the 0-23 when he says that he “designed
that horn”
Certainly an Olds mouthpiece. The trombone is likely either an O-15 or O-115 (can't tell which in a B/W photo); O-23's have an f-attachment.
So many possibilities, so little data.
Maybe he designed the original straight tenor Opera?
Maybe he was playing a straight tenor Opera and wanted an f-attachment, so he went to Olds and designed the O-23 for them?
Maybe after he retired from the Phil he got to tinkering and thought that the O-23 could be improved by changing from a nickel silver bell to a red brass bell (thus the O-25)?

Maybe all or some combination of the above?
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by chromebone »

Part of the problem is there are just about no pictures of Marsteller around, let alone one of him playing. You’d think such a high profile player there’s be at least a few. The only other picture that I’ve ever seen of him is of him playing a duet arrangement of music from The Music Man with Meredith Wilson. I’m pretty sure it was a straight horn in that photo, but beyond that, I couldn’t tell you what make it was.
Marsteller most likely only played straight horns, which was pretty typical for a principal trombonist of that era. None of his method books really get into the f attachment either.
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by JohnL »

chromebone wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:12 pm Part of the problem is there are just about no pictures of Marsteller around, let alone one of him playing. You’d think such a high profile player there’s be at least a few.
With few exceptions, orchestra musicians were pretty much heard but not seen back then. A name in a program. If you were a featured soloist (as Marsteller was on at least two occasions), you'd get a pic (probably the one you posted) in the program, along with a paragraph or two about you (where you studied and what orchestras you previously played with).

If you had an endorsement deal with a manufacturer, you might get your pic in an ad in the trade magazines (Robert Marsteller's predecessor Lorn Steinberger was featured in an Olds ad).
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by SteveM »

JohnL wrote:
O-115 Opera "Fanfare" - Straight tenor, all nickel silver

I believe the Fanfare model was all brass, not nickel silver. The one I owned briefly didn't even have nickel trim, which made its appearance very unusual.
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by JohnL »

SteveM wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:38 pm JohnL wrote:
O-115 Opera "Fanfare" - Straight tenor, all nickel silver

I believe the Fanfare model was all brass, not nickel silver. The one I owned briefly didn't even have nickel trim, which made its appearance very unusual.
Good catch; that was a typo on my part. I've fixed the original post. Thanks.

Did yours have the engraving around the bell rim rather than on the throat area?
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by SteveM »

Yes, I think it did. I didn't keep it because it was very bright sounding - especially considering the extra large bore. I think the bell throat may have been unusually small on the Operas. This one didn't blend well with other large bore horns.
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by Posaunus »

chromebone wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:08 pm Here is a picture of Marsteller with an Olds. It looks to be from the late 50’s-early 60’s. He was already retired from the LA Phil when the 0-25 came out, so he’s probably referring to the 0-23 when he says that he “designed
that horn”
Not true. I don't know Marsteller's exact dates with the LA Phil, but he was its principal trombonist for 25 years after his World War II service, which means he didn't retire until at least 1970. (His son Loren could verify dates). The Olds trombone we now know as the O-25 was developed no later than the late 1960s (so he was still with the LA Phil).

The instrument that I played in a Los Angeles concert in 1972 was clearly an O-25 (though the red brass bell was engraved Opera). Mr Marsteller came up to me after the concert to congratulate me, pointed to the trombone in my hands, and said proudly: "I'm Marsteller. I designed that trombone." It was not an O-23. As a young guy who had never seen the LA Phil live, nor heard of Marsteller, one of my orchestra mates had to explain to me who he was. My jaw dropped, and the moment is seared in my memory 50 years later!
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by Thrawn22 »

Very informative thread. If i wasn't such a Conn nut i would've played Olds.
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by dbwhitaker »

Do all O-25s have the smaller shank? I just acquired an O-25 with SN 981XXX which I think dates it to 1976 or 77. I put a large shank mouthpiece in and didn't notice the fit to be unusual. (On the other hand, I didn't sound very good at all.)

Update: I looked again and now I see that the receiver is smaller. I just hadn't noticed. A large shank mouthpiece is snug but doesn't seat as far into this horn (by about 1/4 inch) as it does in my Bach or Holton. And the Olds 15 mouthpiece I got with the O-25 is loose when inserted into the Holton.
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Re: Olds Opera O-25 - Value?

Post by JohnL »

dbwhitaker wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:03 am Do all O-25s have the smaller shank? I just acquired an O-25 with SN 981XXX which I think dates it to 1976 or 77. I put a large shank mouthpiece in and didn't notice the fit to be unusual. (On the other hand, I didn't sound very good at all.)
Olds had at least two different "large shank" receiver sizes. The later one is very close to the standard size and can usually be used with standard large shank mouthpieces. The earlier one is somewhat smaller (.020" or thereabouts, if memory serves) and is usually problematic with standard large shank mouthpieces.

I can't say exactly when the change was made. I know that my personal O-23 has the smaller receiver, as do my Olds basses from the late 1940's and from the early 1960's, while my 70's S-20, my S-24G, and my P-24G's all have the larger one.
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