Shires Independent Axial design change?

[mbtrombone]

Hi Everyone, a few observations and questions:

I was able to buy a brand new set of Custom Series Independent Axial Valves for my bass trombone from a music store. After having two bad sets sent to me, I just got the third set today. Luckily the valves now work well, and are free from defects, but a new problem has cropped up. I am unable to get the bell section into my Marcus Bonna case. After looking at the old set I have from 2008, and this new set, there are a few measurements that are different. The F and Gb tuning slides are 3/4 of an inch wider apart on the new set (this is about a tube and a half wider). Also, the F slide is longer from the end of the bell to the top of the tuning slide (which makes the effect of the wider section a little more exaggerated as the tube for the F-valve seems to kick outwards from center line). After looking at all the measurements, the F attachment tuning slide nickel sleeves are just not on as far as the old section (which might be a problem for me intonation wise since I am almost pushed in all the way on the old section, I will play with a tuner to test it tomorrow). This all means that the bell section now hits the main hand slide when I try to close the Marcus Bonna case (luckily I noticed before trying to shut the case that the section seemed wider, so the hand slide is ok).

I noticed that now Marcus Bonna makes a Modelo F model of my case that is 1/2 an inch wider (and am curious if this is because of the change of the valve design on Shires Axial Bases?)

What cases are people using for a 9 1/2 inch belled Shires Independent Axial Valved bass trombones? Preferably hard cases as I don’t trust gig bags rolling around in the trunk of my car.

Also, for those out there with Shires Independent Axial Valves what is the measurements you have from outside of F attachement slide to outside of Gb attachment slide? (I am a little under 3 inches on one set, and 3 3/4 of an inch on another set).

I am trying to decide if I should buy a new case, get this valve section replaced (third set already), or have this valve section worked on by a tech (unsolder the F-attachment tuning slide legs, change the bend of some of the knuckles to fix the kick out, and move the edge bracing mounts on the tuning slide legs. This is a brand new valve section). This was supposed to be a quick solution to old valves, but I am now going on 2 months of shipping valve sections back and forth between the music store (they have to be loosing money at this point on shipping and I don’t want to keep doing this shipping game we are stuck in).

Sorry for the long post, but thanks to anyone that is willing to help answer a few of my questions and offer opinions on next steps I should consider.

[Burgerbob]

I think for most axial sections, including older Shires, the Modelo F is the best choice. I used a normal model with my Brasslab set but only because they were pretty narrow. Edwards and Getzen sections are very wide and would definitely need the Modelo F. I'd definitely buy one for my current horn.

I am surprised to hear of the changes in the Shires section. Any way you could post pictures? You can just outline changes if you don't have a section to compare visually.

[mbtrombone]

I think for most axial sections, including older Shires, the Modelo F is the best choice. I used a normal model with my Brasslab set but only because they were pretty narrow. Edwards and Getzen sections are very wide and would definitely need the Modelo F. I'd definitely buy one for my current horn.

I am surprised to hear of the changes in the Shires section. Any way you could post pictures? You can just outline changes if you don't have a section to compare visually.

I just put the valves away for the night, but can take more pictures tomorrow, but these are the two that I am sending to the store tomorrow (note the measurements look off due to the cameras proximity to the section, the real life difference is a little more than 3/4 of an inch):

New Section:

59E5DC46-BAC8-44E6-AE7D-0D1E1C4EF01D.jpeg

Old Section:

E12F2A6E-51FC-4B66-9240-1F29C82FA5CB.jpeg

[elmsandr]

I couldn't quite figure out what you were saying from the text, but the pictures help to make things clearer.

From the picture, I don't think the issue is that the F tuning slide isn't "pushed on as far", I think the F tuning slide assembly is just assembled at a slight angle to the rest of the horn. Is it wider up at the main large diamond flange as well?

I wouldn't try to change this valve section, I'd get a case that fits the horn. I have made similar adjustments to a valve section that I built... but it is never as easy as it seems. Always one or two other things that make moving it harder than it needs to be, especially if you don't have a nice jig to build it with.

Cheers,
Andy

[mbtrombone]

I couldn't quite figure out what you were saying from the text, but the pictures help to make things clearer.

From the picture, I don't think the issue is that the F tuning slide isn't "pushed on as far", I think the F tuning slide assembly is just assembled at a slight angle to the rest of the horn. Is it wider up at the main large diamond flange as well?

I wouldn't try to change this valve section, I'd get a case that fits the horn. I have made similar adjustments to a valve section that I built... but it is never as easy as it seems. Always one or two other things that make moving it harder than it needs to be, especially if you don't have a nice jig to build it with.

Cheers,
Andy

Hi Andy,

I was able to get some more pictures and will be adding them in the following posts to clear up what I mean.

Thanks,
Matt
Hi Andy,

Just got up and was able to take some more pictures. Hopefully they will help explain what I mean.

[mbtrombone]

So it seems I can only add three photos per post, so sorry about the next string of posts.

I agree with Andy that the valve section is assembled with an outward angle as shown in the following photos:

Old Valve Section:

90DE213E-D1DC-4E75-8734-5A250776551A.jpeg

New Valve Section:

C0110714-A251-4F42-8059-04865DFB81D2.jpeg

There are also some other changes and issues when I compare the two valve sections (to be outlined in following posts with photos).

[mbtrombone]

The first change is that the pipes that come out of the valves that are “S” bends.

Old valve section were two pieces:

D8F1044D-EEFC-4CB3-A682-3B65500642EF.jpeg

New valve section are one piece:

5916022F-7855-4F15-A773-E0143469204C.jpeg

Note that on the new valve section the nickel slide receivers are not as far on as the old valve section. (has me worried about tuning, more on this in the next posts).

[mbtrombone]

When stand the bell sections up on a flat surface and measure up to where the nickel slide receivers start they are the same on the Gb Valve, but on the F Valve they are at different places.

Old Valve Section:

3FBD0130-3E81-45DF-AD92-1A6ED1701F8A.jpeg

New Valve Section:

D4C49F7A-634B-442F-BA45-7E922EBAD34A.jpeg

I measure both the bottom receivers (shown in the above photos) and the top receivers (to hard to photograph correctly) and they are off by about the same amount which is about a half inch. (getting a little worried about tuning, too early to annoy the neighbors just yet).

[mbtrombone]

I also measured the distance of the edge bracing on the F valve and it is again about half an inch difference which is making the F slide stick up higher on the bell section.

Old Valve Section is under 3 inches:

627B2139-8AFF-410C-86B8-4BD0E0FCB8FF.jpeg

New Valve Section is about 3 1/2 inches:

AEDF3222-0324-4E90-A365-58AC0B08EA5B.jpeg

When I compare the Gb valves the edge bracing lines up the same on both of the valve sections. When I look at the brace going from the top and bottom Gb and F Slide receivers on the Old Valve section they line up, but on the New Valve Section the F valve brace is up higher than the Gb valve brace, so it seems like to me the F valve slide receiver tubes were assembled, then not slid down on the brass pipes from the valves far enough.

[Burgerbob]

Looks like they have new offset parts. I would be surprised if the wraps are overall longer, though.

[mbtrombone]

So measured from the following points on the F attachment:

FDEBEA56-9EC1-4E8A-AC4D-9658FD5C5695.jpeg

The old valve section measured about 14 1/2 inches:

2B35EDD0-A09D-4338-8F3C-755C8FA91BA6.jpeg

The new valve section measure about 15 inches:

4DD4E708-6711-4D4D-80C4-65D14E81820C.jpeg

[mbtrombone]

All of this means that the valve section is sticking out quite a bit more in the case especially at the tuning slide end of the bell section, which in a Marcus Bonna is the narrow part of the case. Not only are the top tubes on the Gb and F valves assembled with an out ward angle (on both valves), but the extra length means the widest part of the valve section is now even wider and further towards the narrowest part of the case. The Gb tuning slide actually hits my hand slide with the new valve section vs. the old valve section that clears by about 3/4 or an inch or so.

Old Valve Section in the Marcus Bonna Case:

67754685-4ED5-4C95-A222-83C3FDC77A4C.jpeg

New Valve Section in the Marcus Bonna Case:

2943ECBA-5C88-49E4-9597-32A2B0D7AA1F.jpeg

So I am in a bind, I can either try a Modelo F which might solve the problem, send this valve section back to the music store I got it from (it might have been their last set. They already sent me two other ones over the last month that had defects), or I can get the geometry fixed by a technician out here but live with the fact that it won’t be cosmetically perfect due to the amount of parts that need to be moved on the F and Gb valve sections to get the geometry correct.

Thanks for reading a long set of posts, and thanks for any thoughts on my next move on this issue.

Matt

[Burgerbob]

Does this valve section play well?

Get the Modelo F. Simple as that.

[mbtrombone]

Looks like they have new offset parts. I would be surprised if the wraps are overall longer, though.

That’s what I thought at first, but the F attachment tubing is actually longer. Which for me is a bit of a concern as I don’t pull my slides out all that far when playing. It really seems to me like the F attachment tuning slide receivers were just soldered on too high. But there are also a few other geometry things going on like the fact that the top tubes seem to be angled out now. Also, the brace from the main bell brace to the F attachment tubing is wider on the new valve section and closer to the bell (makes putting on a bell with the Edwards Bullet Brace a bit of a chore).

New Valve Section:

6EC34C4C-7435-42D1-B969-BD13ECA319D5.jpeg

Old Valve Section:

6911D83C-AEC2-411C-9928-1C3EFD763957.jpeg

[mbtrombone]

Does this valve section play well?

Get the Modelo F. Simple as that.

I have only had the valve section for a day, and haven’t had a chance to play it much yet. Today I am going to test out the F attachment tuning first, and then play through my daily routine. From yesterday is seemed to play fine. I also need to test this thing in a Modelo F - from what I read online the Modelo F is only 1.25 cm wider so I don’t know if that is going to be enough, the valve section sticks up quite a bit more that 1.25 cm.

[Burgerbob]

I'd assume it fits, Edwards wraps are very wide and they fit in the Modelo F (as far as I know).

Like I said, I doubt the F side is actually longer... if it is, they really messed up.

[mbtrombone]

Update: After playing the valve sections about an equal amount of time through my warm ups and daily routines, I tuned the main horn, Gb attachment and F attachments. The new valve section’s F attachment is too long. An F in the staff is 15 cents flat and an F bellow the staff is about 5 cents flat. There is no more slide to push in, so looks like this valve section is either going back, or will need to be modified to fix the tuning.

I guess I have a new question: Are all Shires Independent Axial Valves now built this way, where the F-attachment is longer than the Gb-attachment? For those of you with Shires Independent Axial Valves are your Gb and F tuning slide receivers the same length when you stand the bell upright? My old set of valves they are even, on my new set the F slide tuning receivers are taller by about a half inch.

Here are some photos of where my tuning slides are ending up.

Old Valve Section with tuning slides in place:

656F497E-064B-4E29-878B-6E1D8A5D9D79.jpeg

New Valve Section with tuning slides in place (note the F slide is all the way in and still flat!):

68EBDB65-C9C7-494A-ACF5-CC9D9275F349.jpeg

[TheBoneRanger]

After having two bad sets sent to me, I just got the third set today.

Curious what the issue was with the first two valve sets.

The change in length for the F attachment tubing does seem curious, and I’m puzzled as to why the valve tubing no longer appears parallel or “square” to the bell section.

Andrew

[mbtrombone]

After having two bad sets sent to me, I just got the third set today.

Curious what the issue was with the first two valve sets.

Andrew

The first valve set had cracked valve cones and the Gb valve was really bad (clearly a manufacturing defect):

F6C21BE4-EA50-4E28-B410-118317CDF604.jpeg

The second valve set the Gb valve would bind up and would require me to loosen the lock ring on the valve and one of the braces to get it moving again. Tried cleaning the valve and dumping oil in to help, but if the lock ring was too tight or too loose it would either bind up, or buzz when playing. (This was either a manufacturing defect, or damage in shipping).

The third set that the valves work wonderfully in a mechanical sense, but this valve section has a build issue that effects the internal tuning of the positions. The F-attachment slide positions are now all off because the whole F-attachment is just too long which makes everything flat with the F-attachement. It also makes anything with two valves too flat as well.

I am not expecting the valve section to be perfect as my first ones from 15 years ago were not perfect, but I feel like cracks, a moving Gb Valve, and intonation problems caused by adding too much tubing to the F-attachment aren’t things I should let slide since these are very expensive valve sets. I am on the other hand very worried this music store is not going to make much money on this sale if this continues on. Overnight shipping of these valve sets has to be costing them too much at this point. I also think they have sent me every Independent Axial Valve set that they had in store at this point.

I would keep this most recent set and just have them worked on if Shires is just making the F-attachments longer now, but I need to get confirmation of this from some other trombonists (hopefully here reading this), or maybe this valve set is just built wrong. I don’t have the first two sets to compare anymore because I shipped those back to the music store I bought them from.

[harrisonreed]

So it seems I can only add three photos per post, so sorry about the next string of posts.

I agree with Andy that the valve section is assembled with an outward angle as shown in the following photos:

Old Valve Section:
90DE213E-D1DC-4E75-8734-5A250776551A.jpeg

New Valve Section:
C0110714-A251-4F42-8059-04865DFB81D2.jpeg

There are also some other changes and issues when I compare the two valve sections (to be outlined in following posts with photos).

These both look crooked and whacky.

[mbtrombone]

So it seems I can only add three photos per post, so sorry about the next string of posts.

I agree with Andy that the valve section is assembled with an outward angle as shown in the following photos:

Old Valve Section:
90DE213E-D1DC-4E75-8734-5A250776551A.jpeg

New Valve Section:
C0110714-A251-4F42-8059-04865DFB81D2.jpeg

There are also some other changes and issues when I compare the two valve sections (to be outlined in following posts with photos).

These both look crooked and whacky.

I agree that they are both a little crooked, but the old section is at least in the narrow direction and have been super reliable for 15 years. The new section plays well, but with the tubing being angled out it now means that my Marcus Bonna Case no longer works. The tuning being flat with the F-attachment is also a problem.

Question: would some people mind measuring their Shires Independent Axial Valves or at least seeing if the F attachment and Gb attachments are the same height?

Thanks everyone

[Rrova]

For me this is very concerning. Right or wrong I wouldn’t be as surprised if this was a Q series set. I would send all the pics you posted directly to Shires and have them provide an explanation. If it is a manufacturers mistake they need to do the repairs. Granted I’ve always owned used horns so I don’t know how warranties and what not work.

Also you might have another bass trombone player give them a try and see if it plays flat for them as well. Can always end up being an individual thing.

[Elow]

This is kinda funny because one of the things the shires techs preached in a repair seminar was perfect alignment… As well as cleaning everything perfectly, and somehow i still see buffing compound lacquered over everywhere on custom horns. Also ironic, my Q bass didn’t have this problem. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ip7sicj6jd85 ... lGnZa?dl=0 Pics are somewhere in there

[Tombone]

I wish I found this post earlier. The tuning on my new valve section had been doing my head in (F slide all the way in and still flat). I did a few quick measurements, and mine measures similarly to your new section (F noticeably higher than Gb etc). The solder clean up isn't great either, although to my eyes the alignment is more parallel. Did you happen to contact Shires and get a response?

Nice to know I'm not the only one (I think?).

[SquareTube]

Many of those design changes you've pointed out have been in place for quite a while, maybe 10+ years? I built plenty of valve sections during my time at Shires, and I wouldn't have give as wide as your new set, nor as toed in as the older set. There is a bit of leeway left to the discretion of the tech, but not fitting in a case is a downside of that wider construction. Brace placement also floats a bit, depending on who's building.

Maybe no consolation to you if it plays flat --too long is too long! If that's the case, the only thing i can see that would be the cause is if the outer tubes are longer than necessary. And that's likely a design issue rather than assembly. Let Shires know it plays flat for you, and maybe the design will get shortened a bit, if it's a problem for a number of people. (Likely would be for me, I rarely pull slides of more than 1/2".)