Piccolo trombone?

[day]

I'm an ignorant newbie, know only what I've researched & read thus far (past few days) online, and found this forum. It looks like none of my posts will even make it here until at least 2 are written and approved. My grandson, who turns out to be musically talented, is now playing trombone in school. He doesn't own one, but his teacher (it's a charter school, which might make a difference) is allowing him to use a school-owned one and even let him keep it over the summer, which is normally a no-no. But apparently the teacher trusts him (he's a great kid) enough, plus wanted him to keep practicing.
I'm not sure if I want to buy him a trombone just yet, but last phone call he did say he was really interested in learning piccolo trombone. Before this, he also played tuba and French horn.
I would love to buy him a piccolo trombone, but the only place thus far I've located one is Wessex, which not only wouldn't be available until late January, but it appears it's made in China (?) Does anyone here have any info/advice for me? Thank you!!! (I am an amateur musician myself, but never played brass.)

[BGuttman]

Hi and Welcome. You now have your first post. You can put a second post in the topic "Why can't I see my posts" and when I approve it you will have your two.

First, piccolo trombone is a "stunt" instrument. The most common trombone is the tenor. Next most common is the bass trombone, which is a large bore tenor with one or two rotary valves to allow more low notes. Third most common is the alto, which is a smaller version of the tenor; pitched about a fourth higher. Alto trombones are sometimes used as beginner trombones in Scandinavia since they have shorter slides and are better suited for short arms.

There is a soprano trombone, which is about the same size as a trumpet (and uses the same mouthpiece). It is found in Moravian trombone choirs and sometimes used by jazz trumpet players to show off.

There is a contrabass trombone, which is like a two-valve bass trombone but pitched a 5th lower. The slide is way too long for normal arms so many are fitted with a special handle. Contrabass trombones are sometimes used in Opera (Wagner invented one in BBb, an octave below the tenor trombone, and used it in his Ring series) and in movie music. A contra is not normally needed in orchestral music.

There are smaller trombones. A video of the German Brass playing "Peanut Vendor" featured a bunch of them, including one that is so small you can't actually move the slide. These things have no use in normal playing.

Is your grandson playing a tenor trombone? If so there are many available. As a beginner I'd recommend a student instrument since kids can be tough on instruments; even if it's unintentional. And their friends can be worse. Some players are given a trombone with an F-attachment since the tubing in the F-attachment is the same as moving the slide to 6th position so the notes in 6th and 7th position are easier to reach. On the downside, an F-attachment adds a bit of weight to the instrument making it more tiresome to hold for long periods.

There are decent Chinese trombones and awful Chinese trombones. And don't even think of an Indian trombone. As a purveyor of Chinese instruments, Wessex is one of the better ones since they quality check the instruments (something the Chinese factories don't). There are other vendors who QC check Chinese instruments as well. Jupiter is a good quality maker based in Taiwan (as opposed to Mainland China). Yamaha makes their student instruments in China but QC checks all of them to a high standard (the pro line instruments are made in Japan).

There are some plastic instruments like the pBone and the Tromba. These instruments are really good for beginners because they are almost indestructible -- although they would stand out from other instruments if used in a band. But they are really inexpensive. Maybe a pBone now and a nice brass instrument when he gets a bit better.

Your grandson is lucky to have you looking out for him.

[Trav1s]

Welcome to the forum.

Sorry to hear the delay in your posting. The admins of the forum have other jobs outside the realm of cyber moderation and sometimes delays happen. I hope you can have grace with them and the rest of the experience with this group is valuable. I certainly appreciate the collective wisdom of this group.

So as with most manufacturing, there are so many brands being made in countries with cheaper labor. I'm a brass brass player who recently picked up tenor sax. The conversation is the same in the sax/woodwind world as it is here.

As for Wessex, I have read very good things about their line and I know there are forum members who play their instruments. I first heard of their horns from the tuba/euphonium world and they continue to offer a great value to performance ratio.

If a pic tbone is what is desired, I think a Wessex horn would be solid option for him.

But as BGuttman says, it's not really useful in the world of music. A basic tenor would be a much better way to start him on his way to being a versatile brass player.

I hope some others can chime in for you.

[elmsandr]

Nobody, and I mean nobody "needs" a piccolo trombone. They aren't even really called for in trombone ensembles. Looking at the higher pitch harmony trombones, 99%+ of students into Undergrad do not even "need" an Alto, let alone a Soprano or Piccolo. A soprano might be what they meant, as it would have the same sounding pitch and range as a trumpet. You can find lots of examples of Louis Armstrong or Wycliff Gordon playing a Soprano trombone. These are still mostly a "gimmick", but they can have some solid musical performances.

Oh, and gimmicks are good and fun... remember we are usually on a stage to entertain, right?

The "Manisero" video Bruce mentioned. Worth 5 1/2 minutes every time I have a reason to watch it. Trombones from Contra through smaller than they actually make them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqjW5_BbodM

Soprano at ~2:00 min
The two after that... not sure which one would align to the Wessex piccolo. Probably the second, but I would not go for those extreme sizes for somebody still learning. Soprano, sure, it plays like a trumpet, only more out of tune.

Note: I do have a soprano. It RARELY leaves the house.

Cheers,
Andy

[Finetales]

Apart from Chinese ones like the Wessex, the only place you will find a piccolo trombone that you can actually buy is Thein (link to theirs here). Unlike the others, the Thein is probably an actually musically useful instrument, as Thein are master brass makers who make their instruments to the highest quality. However, it will also have a price to match that is exponentially more than anyone should ever spend on a piccolo trombone. (The size smaller than that is the joke trombone for that German Brass video that doesn't really work (but is still on the Thein website!).)

As for whether or not it is a good idea to buy a piccolo trombone for your grandson, well it depends. As a fun gift to mess around on, absolutely. The Wessex is perfect for that, as it is inexpensive but has quality control (unlike anywhere else you can buy a Chinese piccolo trombone) so it will be guaranteed to be a functional instrument. As a musical instrument for serious study, absolutely not. It's already been mentioned that the piccolo trombone has no musical value, but it is also the trombone equivalent of a piccolo trumpet, which is a very difficult instrument to play that even the most talented trumpeters don't usually pick up until college.

If your grandson wants a small trombone to learn and play (and not just mess around with for fun), a soprano trombone (also available from Wessex, or even cheaper from Thomann) would be the ticket. Soprano trombone does not have any existing musical opportunities apart from jazz improvisation, but it can sound like a trumpet (by using a trumpet mouthpiece) and play trumpet music so there are plenty of potential opportunities there.

[Chatname]

I teach some children. If they are very young/small I start with an alto pBone (plastic). Next would be a brass tenor with Bb/C second valve. There are different cheap brands, among the best would be Yamaha YSL-350 C Trombone , however you can easily buy something cheaper. Those are brilliant for kids, they are short and light and you don’t have to reach the farthest positions.

[Posaunus]

How old is your grandson? If he's 11 or older, he really should be playing a brass tenor trombone, which he can use in the school band, not a "gimmick" instrument like a piccolo trombone. If he's younger (or finances are a problem), you could get him a plastic tenor trombone (pBone or Tromba) for a bit more than $100. Anything else is likely to be a relatively useless toy, which will soon be discarded.

New student-level brass tenor trombones can be obtained at reasonable prices, from your local music store or on line from reputable dealers. (They can also provide good advice!) Or you could look at used trombones - high-quality instruments can also be found at fairly low prices.

I recommend against handicapping your grandson's musical future with a gimmick or a toy.

[LeTromboniste]

I would worry about what fooling around pretty uselessly with a piccolo trombone could do to his technique, especially if he doesn't have individual lessons with a good teacher.

[deanmccarty]

At this stage all he needs is a tenor trombone… even within tenor trombone you have 5 different sizes of tenor trombone… actually more than that, but the usual suspects are: .490 bore (very small bore, mainly jazz use), .500 bore (small bore, also mainly jazz use, and usually the size of most beginner horns), .508 (medium small bore, jazz and small classical use), .525 (medium bore, light classical use), and .547 (large bore - mainly classical use).

Most people start on a .500 bore tenor. Then they move to a .525 or .547 bore tenor. The use of piccolo, soprano, and contrabass trombones are never needed… I would avoid those. Bass and alto trombones are instruments that will be used (bass is very common, alto is really a double for tenor players).

In short… if you want to purchase an instrument… it needs to be a tenor.

FYI… in full transparency… I own every type of trombone… even a piccolo… but the piccolo I have is just a decoration on my bookshelf… it is useless.

[day]

I only just now saw all the responses, & am so grateful! I'm also technically illiterate, & couldn't see a way to reply to individual posts, so I'm hoping this will show up to everyone. I know right now that I'm not gonna spend 350 bucks on a piccolo trombone, period. I know that's peanuts in the serious brass music world, but it's a lot to me for something that I now know isn't nearly as cool as my grandson made it sound, lol! I definitely would rather get him a good tenor trombone of his own. So much information here!!! Thank you to everyone, SO much!

Thing I just realized I'd like to do is get him signed up for this forum. He would absolutely learn so much. He will be 13 the day after Christmas, for those who were wondering. He's also the kind of kid who just takes care of things like this. Anyway, it's late for me, so I'll sign off for now, but hope you all know how very much you helped me and how incredible I think this forum is!

[Posaunus]

At 13 years old, your grandson is perfectly capable of playing, enjoying, and caring for a straight tenor trombone, which he can also use to participate in his school instrumental ensembles.

You sound like a great, caring grandmother. If you want to help him, find a good trombone teacher (or perhaps communicate with his band director), who will assist both of you in finding an appropriate student-level tenor trombone to purchase and play. If you're lucky, there's a good music store in your area where he can try some options.

Good luck!

[Chatname]

Great work; we need more young trombone players!
Lots of good advice in this thread.
I teach 3 kids age 13 years. They all play Yamaha YSL 354, perfect for that age.
At least here in Europe they are very affordable and many people use them so they are pretty cheap second hand.
I highly recommend them, I could easily play one in professional settings myself.
Good luck!

[day]

Thank you once again!

[comebackplayer]

This may be too late to be useful, but I just bought a Carolbrass soprano trombone/slide trumpet. It's ultralightweight. I'll say what everyone else said--the intonation is incredibly difficult on the smaller instruments. It reminds me of trying to learn violin with one of my kids, where mm will easily move you a half-step. Can anyone find a single good recording of a piccolo trombone? (With valves, those are still very challenging.)

I did want to say that as a grandparent you might be able to help him find good 2nd hand brass instruments. You probably have the time and extra $ for this, and he might really enjoy a good used trombone, euphonium, or french horn. If you have any brass background, it would be a good way to encourage him. Paying for lessons or summer camp would be another good use of extra funds.

[robcat2075]

A piccolo trombone is a gimmick.
It has almost no use in the real musical world.

[HanTromboneSolo]

Hoping to revive this thread. Currently I only play tenor but I just bought a Wessex piccolo trombone just to have fun with. Anyone else have one they play sometimes?

[deanmccarty]

Hoping to revive this thread. Currently I only play tenor but I just bought a Wessex piccolo trombone just to have fun with. Anyone else have one they play sometimes?

I have one thst I use as a decoration in my practice room. Yes, it will play… but that’s not why I purchased it.

[HanTromboneSolo]

Hoping to revive this thread. Currently I only play tenor but I just bought a Wessex piccolo trombone just to have fun with. Anyone else have one they play sometimes?

I have one thst I use as a decoration in my practice room. Yes, it will play… but that’s not why I purchased it.

Haha, I understand. Wessex actually sends a stand when they ship the horn, so if nothing else I'll have a cool decoration. I am intrigued as to what I can do with it.