Questions for Butler owners

Post Reply
Reedman1
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:18 am

Questions for Butler owners

Post by Reedman1 »

I'm interested in Butler trombones because of the light weight of the carbon fiber. I have some shoulder and wrist pain, so I wonder if people who have switched to Butler and have had shoulder, wrist, or other trombone-related repetitive stress injuries have experienced relief from their symptoms after switching. If you haven't, I would like to know about that, too.

I'm also curious about how carbon fiber slides wear over time. I have a pretty good idea of how brass and nickel-sliver wear. It would be a shame to buy ak carbon fiber instrument and then have it wear out faster than a brass instrument, especially given the price tag.
2bobone
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:10 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by 2bobone »

The Butler C12 bass trombone, by virtue of its 4 pound weight, has made it possible for me to play again without the use of an ErgoBone for the first time in many a year. I suspect that if you've had any injury by playing an overly heavy instrument, your body will remind you of that injury regardless of how lightweight an instrument you choose to play. You may be thinking that the entire Butler slide is made of carbon fiber. It is not. The inner slide on the C12 is a stock Bach bass trombone slide with a screw-in leadpipe. Since I bought the very first C12 that Dave Butler manufactured a bit over two years ago, I'd have to say that the jury is still out regarding slide wear. The outer slide is so light that I would imagine the slide wear to be negligible and to be far less than on a standard setup. I have installed a Greenhoe thumb support but I believe Dave is now offering an Ax Handle type support upon request. It is a different blow and the response of the horn is so efficient that it takes some time to feel comfortable with it. I'm at peace with the change. You may not feel the same. If you want to continue playing, it's a no-brainer and is worth the price of entry to a whole new world of making trombone type noises !
Reedman1
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:18 am

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by Reedman1 »

2bobone wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:39 pm The Butler C12 bass trombone, by virtue of its 4 pound weight, has made it possible for me to play again without the use of an ErgoBone for the first time in many a year. I suspect that if you've had any injury by playing an overly heavy instrument, your body will remind you of that injury regardless of how lightweight an instrument you choose to play. You may be thinking that the entire Butler slide is made of carbon fiber. It is not. The inner slide on the C12 is a stock Bach bass trombone slide with a screw-in leadpipe. Since I bought the very first C12 that Dave Butler manufactured a bit over two years ago, I'd have to say that the jury is still out regarding slide wear. The outer slide is so light that I would imagine the slide wear to be negligible and to be far less than on a standard setup. I have installed a Greenhoe thumb support but I believe Dave is now offering an Ax Handle type support upon request. It is a different blow and the response of the horn is so efficient that it takes some time to feel comfortable with it. I'm at peace with the change. You may not feel the same. If you want to continue playing, it's a no-brainer and is worth the price of entry to a whole new world of making trombone type noises !
That’s a very informative response - thank you! I am actually familiar with the Butler slide; I have one on my 2B. But I actually much prefer playing a .508 bore (Carol Brass 2209). It’s not a heavy horn, as these things go, but heavy enough to annoy my left hand and shoulder. So I’m thinking of changing to a JJ to prolong my playing life.
User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 957
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by elmsandr »

Slide wear? How many decades do you plan on playing and why don't you lube your slides? Seriously, the brass slide sitting next to me is almost 80 years old and barely has any wear on the chrome. I know they CAN wear, but they don't have to be destroyed by use. My Butler slide is only what, a year and a half old? Young enough that I would consider any wear to be a manufacturing defect.

I don't have any particular stress injuries that prevented me from playing, but as a bass player we're always on the edge there. Would love to upgrade the flare on the horn to save some more weight one of these days...

Cheers,
Andy
Reedman1
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:18 am

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by Reedman1 »

elmsandr wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:25 am Slide wear? How many decades do you plan on playing and why don't you lube your slides? Seriously, the brass slide sitting next to me is almost 80 years old and barely has any wear on the chrome. I know they CAN wear, but they don't have to be destroyed by use. My Butler slide is only what, a year and a half old? Young enough that I would consider any wear to be a manufacturing defect.

I don't have any particular stress injuries that prevented me from playing, but as a bass player we're always on the edge there. Would love to upgrade the flare on the horn to save some more weight one of these days...

Cheers,
Andy
I lube my slides conscientiously, before playing, and I clean them thoroughly afterwards, every single time. But slides can wear, so I believe that my question is legitimate.

Thanks for your answer. Lucky you that you don't have any stress injuries. Hope it stays that way.
User avatar
dembones
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:12 am

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by dembones »

Over the last few years I started experiencing tendinitis and carpal tunnel episodes in my left wrist. It got bad enough that there were times I couldn't play at all. Really in desperation I ordered a Butler C8 (.525).

The reduction in weight has allowed me to return to a full practice and performance schedule without pain. That's a big deal for me. And I find that I play with less tension in my body, and can actually practice more, so I feel I sound better on the Butler.

However, dealing with Butler hasn't been very good, both in terms of getting the horn initially (he quoted 4-6 weeks and it took over 5 months to get it), the condition the horn was in when I received it (the inner slide tubes were grossly misaligned - I had to have it aligned but wasn't going to send it back to Butler because it took so long to get it in the first place, and the lacquer finish on the metal parts was very rough), and getting any follow up help with it just isn't there (the rubber nib at the end of the slide came off and was lost - I asked Dave Butler at least twice, when he finally responded he said to go find it at an auto parts store. Really? It's probably costs pennies, and I even offered to pay for it which after spending thousands on the horn seems ridiculous. I did look in several stores but have given up at this point).

I love playing the horn, but it I was to do it again I would definitely look into a DaCarbo. They cost more but the ones I've seen have had beautiful build quality.

As to slide wear, I don't think that is ever going to be a problem, it will last for a very long time. It seems like with the reduced weight and less friction there will be very little wear on the inners (now that they are aligned!) and CF is very durable.
Don Mikkelsen
Klimchak
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:38 am

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by Klimchak »

I suffer from some left elbow issues and a decent bit of pain when holding the horn. I have essentially stopped playing anything with a trigger due to weight (fortunately, most of my playing opportunities do/did not necessitate an attachment). I have had both a Lemondrop and a JJ as well as cf slides for 6H's and 3B's. While the weight reduction was very noticeable, it really did not help me out since my issues are more with bending the elbow as opposed to just the weight. When I had the JJ, I was also using a Neotech grip and still had pain in my elbows and some tingling in my left hand. For me, the weight reduction did not help and therefore the advantages of cf did not outweigh the perceived sound advantages. I say "perceived" since it was the feedback that was most off-putting for me. It still sounded like a trombone out front, but I could not wrap my head around the sound I was hearing. I felt I was always fighting to play it. I did not have any issues with Butler and often received the outer slides faster than what I was quoted for turnaround.

As far as wearing out, I think I will wear out before the cf slides will.
2bobone
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:10 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by 2bobone »

Out of curiosity, I once weighed my Conn 88H [tenor with an "F" trigger] and my Butler C12 bass trombone [bass with two triggers] and was amazed to find that they both weighed the same at 4 pounds each ! The split trigger setup on most contemporary bass trombones basically removes one of your strongest fingers from its role in supporting the instrument and relegates it to operating the "G" flat trigger. That is one of the reasons that I always preferred the stock valve setup on a King Duo Gravis despite the fact that it is a dependent setup. That, plus the added advantage of having the bell brace available to support the instrument made it an all-time favorite. Fulltime bass players will always wonder why tenor players would have any complaints about the weight of their comparatively lightweight instruments. But ---- regardless of which you play, when the signs of injury present themselves, do NOT "tough it out" ! You won't win and will have to live with the circumstances. Ask me how I know.
User avatar
ithinknot
Posts: 1037
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:40 pm

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by ithinknot »

dembones wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:27 am It seems like with the reduced weight and less friction there will be very little wear on the inners
Plausible
and CF is very durable.
But is this true? CF is very strong, yes, but abrasion resistance? There are all sorts of Kevlar wraps, and more complex composite concoctions, but the standard prepreg carbon/epoxy forms are certainly extremely easy to file and sand.

The immediate surface contact is with epoxy resin, which ain't exactly adamantium.

There'll be someone around here who knows about this sort of thing professionally.
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 5891
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by BGuttman »

I will agree that epoxy resin is easier to abrade than brass or nickel silver. BUT. If the chrome inner has no wear, it is unlikely to create wear on the outer. Especially if it's carbon fiber reinforced. The carbon fiber filling is soft and will not abrade the chrome any more than the epoxy. If the chrome is not made uneven it will not be likely to wear on the epoxy.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
User avatar
Chalker4
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:17 am
Location: Southwest Ohio USA

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by Chalker4 »

As always, proper lubrication is critical. By keeping a low friction boundary between the two materials in intimate contact, abrasive wear should be minimal. Bruce is correct about the cured epoxy being relatively soft. The hope is the graphite fibers are fully-encapsulated in the cured epoxy resin. This will improve life and prevent the relatively abrasive fibers from coming into contact with the inner slide tubes. Wear should not be an issue.
johntarr
Posts: 284
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 11:03 pm

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by johntarr »

Reedman1 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:52 pm I'm interested in Butler trombones because of the light weight of the carbon fiber. I have some shoulder and wrist pain, so I wonder if people who have switched to Butler and have had shoulder, wrist, or other trombone-related repetitive stress injuries have experienced relief from their symptoms after switching. If you haven't, I would like to know about that, too.
I developed some chronic shoulder pain after playing my (then new) Lawler. Playing other instruments with an f attachment didn’t bother my shoulder as much but the damage had been done. Last summer I got to try a Butler C10 and loved the light weight as well as the sound. After playing the cf slide, I didn’t want to go back to the nickel slide on the Lawler so ordered a cf slide for that.

There was still the ergonomic problem and I tried an Ax Handle, which was a bit better but not enough. When comparing how I hold the Butler (the bell section is heavier than the Lawler) I realized that I hold the horn with my four fingers and my thumb is free to work the valve. With the Lawler, I had my thumb on the bell brace and that was uncomfortable. Installing a Neo Grip hand brace has solved the problem, luckily.

I'm also curious about how carbon fiber slides wear over time. I have a pretty good idea of how brass and nickel-sliver wear. It would be a shame to buy ak carbon fiber instrument and then have it wear out faster than a brass instrument, especially given the price tag.
The slide I got on the C10 had been used so I think it’s a couple of years old. The action is great and because it’s so light, I imagine it won’t wear as fast as a heavier slide might. Plus, you swab out the outer slide regularly to remove moisture so my Butler slide is much cleaner than any of my other slides had been. On top of that, Dave Butler recommends applying carnauba wax to the inner and outer tubes, which makes the slide even better. With so little friction, I can’t imagine the slide will wear out any time soon.
User avatar
muschem
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:16 am
Location: Austin, Texas
Contact:

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by muschem »

I have a funky right shoulder and elbow, which don't bother me too much most of the time, but which definitely complain a bit after long(ish) sessions on a standard weight slide. I've only had my Butler JJ since October, so my data set is pretty limited. But, on days where I only play that horn, I have noticed a reduction in discomfort. It wouldn't be helpful for me to extrapolate potential slide durability, based on my very short time with the JJ. What I can say is that the slide is an absolute joy to play, and that it is unlike any other slide I've had an opportunity to handle. I can't imagine going back to a metal slide after playing on CF.
Mike Shirley

Tenor trombone
Austin Symphonic Band

Bass trombone
Williamson County Symphony Orchestra
2bobone
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:10 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by 2bobone »

The real trick to obtaining the most from a Butler CF slide is to concentrate on using your left hand to ONLY support the instrument [and when necessary to operate the valve levers] and to concentrate your right hand to NOT grip the slide, but for the slide to be "captured" by your right hand as it moves from position to position. Pretend that your right hand is moving alone, with zero impedance. If you've followed the protocol regarding slide lubrication, it will be a lot like playing "Air Guitar". The slide will move almost imperceptibly with minimal effort with none of the "toss and catch" necessary with a normal weight slide. It is a seemingly subtle difference with a huge benefit. Try it ----- you'll like it !
Reedman1
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:18 am

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by Reedman1 »

2bobone wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:35 pm The real trick to obtaining the most from a Butler CF slide is to concentrate on using your left hand to ONLY support the instrument [and when necessary to operate the valve levers] and to concentrate your right hand to NOT grip the slide, but for the slide to be "captured" by your right hand as it moves from position to position. Pretend that your right hand is moving alone, with zero impedance. If you've followed the protocol regarding slide lubrication, it will be a lot like playing "Air Guitar". The slide will move almost imperceptibly with minimal effort with none of the "toss and catch" necessary with a normal weight slide. It is a seemingly subtle difference with a huge benefit. Try it ----- you'll like it !
I am familiar with the slide from my 2B with Butler slide. I’m thinking about going to a JJ for the larger bore and overall weight reduction.
RichEKelly
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:34 pm
Location: St Paul, MN

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by RichEKelly »

For me, balance was as important as the weight of the horn. I got left fore arm injury from playing a relatively light 3b without a counter weight. Now I play a 2b with a Butler outer slide. I still use the stock counter weight which makes the horn a bit back end heavy in first position, pretty much neutral in 3rd, and a bit front heavy beyond that.
So what are you all considering proper lubrication on the CF slide? Originally Butler recommended playing with a dry slide.
pompatus
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:19 pm

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by pompatus »

RichEKelly wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:42 pm ...So what are you all considering proper lubrication on the CF slide? Originally Butler recommended playing with a dry slide.
I'm also curious for this answer. It seems like somewhere I'd read/heard of the recommendation to use pure carnuba/carnauba (spelling?) wax. Does anyone have links they could share for the products they're using on their Butler slides?
User avatar
muschem
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:16 am
Location: Austin, Texas
Contact:

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by muschem »

I don't know about "proper", but my approach so far is just lightly lubing stockings with https://berp.com/collections/biolube/pr ... handslides, and that's it. Apart from a light layer of biolube, I play the Butler slide dry. This is pretty much the routine described on Dave's site: https://butlertrombones.com/?page_id=1008. The site mentions optional additions of Yamaha lube and/or Carnauba wax, but I use neither of those in my routine... not because they don't work (I'm sure they work fine), but because neither addition seems necessary for great slide action, and I like to keep things simple when possible.

I love the "air guitar" analogy - that's exactly what a great CF slide feels like... playing "air trombone" :)
Mike Shirley

Tenor trombone
Austin Symphonic Band

Bass trombone
Williamson County Symphony Orchestra
RichEKelly
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:34 pm
Location: St Paul, MN

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by RichEKelly »

I tried the BioLube, but I seem to produce a lot of saliva when I play. I can swab out the cf outer slide and it gets better, but not long before it starts to get wet and tacky again. The solution I found was to clean and let dry the cf outer, then apply the BioLube to a swab and run it through the cf slide. Then I apply Yamaha lube to the inner slide. It plays almost as fast aa the dry cf slide, but it stays fast for several days instead of an hour or so. And no more dry swabbing, just apply a little more Yamaha lube if it starts to dry out. I think this approach would also help reduce any wear on the cf slide as well. I am sure other waxes could also perform well.
asmith
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:44 am
Location: Maryland

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by asmith »

For those that own the C12 Bass or a Butler Bell, do you notice a major response or tone difference? I've heard some great sounds out of them, but some of those people could make a rubber hose sound okay.

I've been interested in getting some weight off of my left hand, but don't want to sacrifice tone quality or response.
johntarr
Posts: 284
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 11:03 pm

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by johntarr »

asmith wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:54 pm For those that own the C12 Bass or a Butler Bell, do you notice a major response or tone difference? I've heard some great sounds out of them, but some of those people could make a rubber hose sound okay.

I've been interested in getting some weight off of my left hand, but don't want to sacrifice tone quality or response.
I have a C10, the bell and slide are cf. the response is different in that it’s easier to get the horn to vibrate and you have to play a little differently than a normal horn. The sound is also different in a positive way for me. In a small room, you don’t hear the full spectrum of sound because there seems to be less or a a different kind of feedback from the bell. Incidentally, I also experience this with my Lawyer, which has a cf slide but the bell is very stiff compared to a Rath. Anyway, whenever I play in a bigger room, I can hear the sound better and really like what the horn can do. My colleagues in the orchestra say it sounds great.

Another, less obvious difference is the weight. Holding less weight positively affects my breathing and tension, which has enables me to play more freely, both physically and mentally.
User avatar
tjonz
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:02 am

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by tjonz »

Reedman1 asks:

> I wonder if people who have switched to Butler and
> have had shoulder, wrist, or other trombone-related
> repetitive stress injuries have experienced relief
> from their symptoms after switching.

About three years ago I started experiencing tendinitis pain in my left elbow after holding up my horn for extended periods. During busy stretches the pain sometimes became quite severe. My physical therapist recommended I wear a compression band when I play; it helped, but it didn't eliminate the problem. My Butler JJ model was delivered a week ago. I've played it a lot since then without wearing the compression band and I have experienced no elbow pain whatsoever. Hoping that this would be the case was a significant consideration when I decided to purchase the horn.
User avatar
Molefsky
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:24 pm
Location: US
Contact:

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by Molefsky »

I'm thinking about Getting Butler cut bells for my shires tenor and Eastman bass so I can use smaller cases for travel etc. Am I crazy? Is this going to throw my sound out of whack?
M. Olefsky
Calle Soul Salsa
Arkansas Musicworks Brass Band
User avatar
dembones
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:12 am

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by dembones »

Molefsky wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:11 am I'm thinking about Getting Butler cut bells for my shires tenor and Eastman bass so I can use smaller cases for travel etc. Am I crazy? Is this going to throw my sound out of whack?
It may not throw your sound out of wack, but it will throw the balance of the horn way off. If you get the bell you'll want the CF outer slide, too. I tried my Butler bell and an Edwards .525 brass slide very briefly and it did not work at all. If it's only to have the travel form factor cut your bell or get a cut bell from the maker.
Don Mikkelsen
OneTon
Posts: 401
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:44 am

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by OneTon »

Reedman1’s question is valid and Bruce is correct. People who live or play in environments saturated with airborne abrasive particles such as Tripoli, Libya may experience premature failures in the resin matrix. Once exposed, carbon fibers may cause friction to increase and/or make the outer slide difficult to keep clean and lubricated. The only repair may be replacement of the outer slide.

In addition to keeping slides clean and lubricated, longer life will be achieved by keeping inner slides true, aligned, and free of corrosion and/or wear to the plating. Putting a carbon fiber outer on a slide with soldered on stockings may result in shorter outer slide life.

There is no crystal ball to predict whether carbon fiber outer slides will outlast traditional metal outer slides. A carbon fiber outer slide can be expected to be damage resistant and require no shop maintenance for its life time. If carbon fiber slides last 50, 70, or 100 years, and then require replacement, we may need to accept finite life and replacement as a cost of of playing trombone. Our paradigm will have to change to accommodate the technology. It is possible that the carbon fiber slides may outlast the rest of the trombone components.

How much benefit is derived from lighter instruments supported by injured or aging players depends on the nature of the injury. Mr. Douglas Yeo mentioned that his carbon fiber bass trombone helps with dealing with aging in his recent recital at Wheaton. Perhaps the recital will make it to YouTube.

I replaced the metal bleed air ducts in the wing leading edge of a heavy aircraft with bismaleimide (BMI) ducts in the early 1990’s. BMI composites share similarities with more common carbon fibers. There was no significant friction in that application.
Last edited by OneTon on Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:35 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Richard Smith
Wichita, Kansas
syruplol
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:42 pm

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by syruplol »

Not an owner, but when I played both the tenor and bass at TMEA earlier this year (mouthpieces: SE Shires 5MD for the tenor and Bach 1 1/2G for the bass), I thought the response was quite stuffy and the feedback was less than I was comfortable with.
User avatar
Molefsky
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:24 pm
Location: US
Contact:

Re: Questions for Butler owners

Post by Molefsky »

dembones wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:35 pm It may not throw your sound out of wack, but it will throw the balance of the horn way off. If you get the bell you'll want the CF outer slide, too. I tried my Butler bell and an Edwards .525 brass slide very briefly and it did not work at all. If it's only to have the travel form factor cut your bell or get a cut bell from the maker.
I hadn't even considered that but it's so obvious. dang.
M. Olefsky
Calle Soul Salsa
Arkansas Musicworks Brass Band
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”