Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

adrielo19
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Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by adrielo19 »

Hello everyone! I have been considering buying a new trombone whether it be King, Bach or Conn, but I don't know if it is worth investing in a new one or opting for a used one from another era. I have heard negative things about Conn-Selmer but I wanted to know the opinion of the members of this forum.

My respects always.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by harrisonreed »

New King 3Bs are good.

Tried a 2018 88H, didn't like it. Have never liked Bach's.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by BGuttman »

You can get a good Bach. Just be willing to test a dozen (or more) of them to find it.

New Conns are different from old ones. As Harrison found, you may like it or you may not.

Same goes for new Kings.

They are not bad horns; even the student models. Certainly better than some of the cheap Chinese offerings.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by MStarke »

I bought a new Conn 88HT a year ago.
I wouldn't have bought it if I didn't like it very much.
I had two preselected instruments sent to me from a very good shop in Germany.
Both were very good, but not the same.

Technical/functional perspective:
- Slide is great
- Valve is good to great
- Lacquer/finish is not perfect, but good
Playing perspective:
- Really resonant, easy response
- No surprising "bad" notes, no surprising pitch/intonation tendencies
- Sound-wise what you would expect from a Conn...
Extras:
- I got it with the exchangeable leadpipes. They were all good, and different. (I think one was the Remington leadpipe which I did not try). Currently I am playing it with a bronze MK Roberts tenor leadpipe which I really like

If you want a Conn, definitely at least try a Conn and don't automatically go somewhere else, although certainly there are other offers that go in the same direction.
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OneTon
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by OneTon »

I don’t know where you’re at. The local dealers here in Wichita will order instruments in for us. These days it is usually one at a time. Our best trombone player retired from the music store shortly after COVID got rolling. I have not been bashful about getting a pro or teacher to check one out before purchasing. That music store is good to make the instrument right before it leaves the store. Good used instruments often don’t dwell long in the stores. I would have to drive to Dallas, Denver, or Kansas City to try more than one horn. All things don’t change: Back in the bad old days, ~1968, I would go to Manny’s in NYC to purchase trombones. Good Luck.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Burgerbob »

Unless you're stuck on getting a new horn, used is always a good option with those brands.
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Goten56
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Goten56 »

Many professionals use them, so they can't be bad at all. Mostly depends on your personal taste. In term of quality, look what you see on the used market. It's full of these brands. Where are the european trombones from the 20th century?
I have never liked Kings, but only have tried very old school trombones, so it doesn't mean that they're bad.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by JLivi »

A really good friend of mine is a Conn Selmer artist and he recently had a horn made for him, which was supposed to replicate his vintage horn. I believe CS took his horn to inspect & measure it, and build one based off of that.

From what I've heard they screwed up the slide. There is some kind of clicking sound when he leaves 1st position. He sent it back immediately and they "fixed it" and it still made the noise. When he went back to Conn Selmer they mentioned that they can't figure out why their slides are clicking like that. I don't know if it's just on that brand of horn or model (King 2b), but who knows.

Does it happen to all of them? I have no idea, but you think they'd be able to figure out a slide issue for one of their artists. Hearing about his experience has completely turned me off to buying a new horn from a really large manufacturer. But I also prefer buying used horns. I like trombones with a history.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by hyperbolica »

I'm a big Conn fan, but I haven't bought a new one in 17 years or so. The last one I bought, an 8ht, was excellent. I own several classics - 88h, 8h, 79h, 48h. If you're uneasy about things, try-before-you-buy is the best policy. Whether you buy a new Shires right from the factory, or get a used 4h from Jefro on Craigslist, you'll probably want to play it before you buy it. Some people just buy used horns on speculation - keep it if you love it, sell it on to the next person if you don't. It can be a little risky, but you get as extended a test period as you want. Buying used is less of a risk because you spend less, and can usually get back the purchase price by re-selling.

You might consider a trip to a big shop like Dillons, Horn Guys, Baltimore Brass, Brass Exchange, Schmitts where you can test new against used. These places can make adjustments if horns aren't exactly right, or make minor modifications.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by spencercarran »

Burgerbob wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:48 am Unless you're stuck on getting a new horn, used is always a good option with those brands.
This right here. Conn-Selmer charges rather high prices on new horns, and I'm not a fan of their business practices (union-busting). Would much rather pick up a good condition used instrument that's already proven itself as a solid performer.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Monkhouse »

If they weren't you'd likely hear about it here. Conn-Selmer are still used by many pros, and they have recently come out with some newer models and innovations on their top-line horns (e.g. Conn 88HNV, and Bach A47) although it would be interesting to see how many of their sponsored artists play on older models vs. new production horns. I haven't played a recent offering by them, but I did purchase an 88HCL in 2005-06. I think their marketing demographic is geared toward mostly high level high school, and college music students. They provide the professional level quality and sound, but aren't as customizable and don't necessarily have the consistency as the boutique custom shops (Shires, M&W, Rath, Edwards etc.). This is why it's important to try before you buy, as they can vary from horn to horn.

Unless you absolutely must have a brand new no-dents shiny horn (and warranty), used is always a more economical option. You may be able to find 3 horns for the price of a new one if you're patient and keep an eye out. With used, you have to do your due diligence to find exactly what you're looking for, and you may end up trying, buying, and selling several horns before finding the one. For a real high-level player, equipment can get you that last 5% of your sound concept, but most of us can make do with quality equipment. The biggest advantage to buying new you can do a side by side of different models, and possibly multiple examples of each model. This is a benefit to players that have a strong sound concept, and know exactly what they want. It's just difficult to find a shop that carries a lot of options.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by OneTon »

Getting advice on a site like this can be like trying to get a drink out of a fire hydrant. The most intense and most frequent transcendental experiences that I have had were on a 1960’s Elkhart standard wrap 88H and a YSL-697Z. The 88H experience was validated by Ted Bachman, who was two years ahead of me at university and played alto sax. Right in the middle of a rehearsal, he stood up and said, “Who the (expletive deleted) was that?”

After the 88H was stolen I replaced it with a yellow brass 42B that always did the job. I liked the spirings in the 88H slide okay but the rest of the slide was always goofy. Life moved on and I now have a straight LT42 with oversize gold brass bell that was bought used in 1986 and LT42AG that was new, 23 years ago.

The 15 or 20 year old YSL-697Z, purchased as new, is back from the shop again. If it still has slide issues it may have one foot out the door and the other on a banana peal.

If something were to get replaced, a new LT36BG and 2B are top candidates. Used ones are okay if I come across a good one. I am not afraid at all to buy a new Conn Selmer product. I will most probably fly or drive to try something before I buy it. Solid return policies work too. Sometimes a horn works for one person and not another. Even boutique suppliers can produce a dud.

My primary 0.500-inch trombone is a Shires. Doug Bert of the Brass Exchange knows what it really is and he won’t tell. It runs rings around my YSL-653. I like this Shires, whatever it is, better than a 6H.
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adrielo19
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by adrielo19 »

Thanks to all! I appreciate your answers.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by harrisonreed »

Screenshot_20211130-073619.png
The bottom says it all. That is Bach's premiere model. Horn Guys redirects you to SWEETWATER to buy it if you really want one. Sweetwater is great for music production gear, but I wouldn't buy a trombone from them.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by spencercarran »

Yikes at that review, Harrison. There's also this commentary from Hornguys on the new Conn model:
HornGuys88HNV.png
That's really bad. These are the brand new flagship horns of Conn-Selmer's premiere brands. The list prices are on par with boutique custom horns. You can't let that go out of the factory with a misaligned slide.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Thrawn22 »

Steve wasn't happy with the stuff coming from Conn-Selmer last i saw him. It's always hit a miss with new horns.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by SwissTbone »

I have seen some new Bach 42's - hand picked at the factory for a CS artist - literally falling apart after some weeks of use.

Several bad solder joints, over buffed slide inners, misaligned valves...

I'm still a Bach fan. And I love a good Conn. But I don't think I'd buy anything new. Used is a good bet.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by MrHCinDE »

Around here a new Conn 88h or King 3b/f costs around 2700-3000€, a Bach 42B maybe 500€ more and upwards.

Maybe it’s unreasonable but I’d expect good quality control with a circa. 3k instrument. It’s sort of like an upper mid-range car, I’d accept that it may not be quite as fast, customisable or stylistic as a luxury model but it should be at least solidly built and not immediately require a mechanic to tune it up a soon as I collect it.

The new King trombones I tried recently were solid, the 3b maybe even better than expected. On the other hand, a used 3b for say 1/3 of the price can also be a great horn.

The 88h were ok but in no way better, neither sound-wise nor mechanically, than a 20 year old I sold recently freshly serviced for about 1/2 of the new price. The Abilene horns can be even better value if you find a good one. The Elkhart 88h attract a premium but you can still get an excellent playing one for substantially less than a new 88h, with enough budget for a slide service set aside.

Based on the 42B I’ve tried I would not consider a new 42B good value. For a few hundred € more you can have a fully customised Rath. If Bach is your thing, I’d probably buy an old Corp. straight 42 and get a valve fitted and a slide service. It might not end up much cheaper than a new 42b but would probably play better.

For the price of a new C/S horn, I’d rather pick up a couple of used ones and maybe spend a bit of cash getting the slides set up nicely. As an example, I have a great playing Abilene 88h, an extra 525” slide for the 88h and a lovely 3b/f which in total (including tech work) cost me less than a new 88h. There’s not much tenor trombone playing that those horns could not cover, unless you play in a top professional orchestra and want a slide cannon.

One exception would be a new straight 3b for about 2500€ which I think represents reasonable value as the used 3b are generally more expensive than used 3b/f but the new 3b are cheaper than the new 3b/f. There’s no logic to it but all the new King trombones I’ve tried have felt better made than the more expensive Bach ones from the same group, with Conn somewhere in the middle.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by OneTon »

There would seem to be an elephant in the room that is spelled COVID. The manufacturer’s market was thin to nonexistent for a year. Resumption of production isn’t always easy after such a long break. Steve Ferguson said, “We’re on hold . . .” That is an ugly but necessary choice for Conn Selmer. One manager I spoke to anticipates disruption to availability, production, quality, and development to persist through 2023.

Remember: The money is in student horns. The thinner market for professional horns is buoyed by the hope that Al Kay, Andy Martin, or Bobby Shew will endorse their horns. Look in a high school band room.

After WWII, new cars were in short supply through the early 1950’s. Sometimes you had to know someone to get one. Quality problems and passing defects on to dealers is nothing new in the Western Hemisphere. Caveat Emptor: Try before you buy. There are some good horns and deals out there. Work with a dealer that you trust. Wait if you must. Or buy used.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by harrisonreed »

Sorry, no, COVID is not to blame here. The Elkhart Conn's were already bad shortly after the move to the new factory when I tried them in 2017 and again in 2018. That was at a kiosk, with the Conn marketing team standing right in front of me. Meanwhile the 2020 3BFs, three of them in a row, were all good minus some solder inside the tubing side tubes.

The Eastlake Conns were great, and then they moved to Elkhart, maybe so they could be Elkhart Conns again. You can't just up and move and change staff and get the same result. It's not Elkhart, and it's not Conn, it's Rodriguez or Smith who've been spinning bells for twenty years, and they ain't moving on a whim.

COVID is a great excuse for what was already a declining product.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by MrHCinDE »

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:32 pm Sorry, no, COVID is not to blame here. The Elkhart Conn's were already bad shortly after the move to the new factory when I tried them in 2017 and again in 2018. That was at a kiosk, with the Conn marketing team standing right in front of me. Meanwhile the 2020 3BFs, three of them in a row, were all good minus some solder inside the tubing side tubes.

The Eastlake Conns were great, and then they moved to Elkhart, maybe so they could be Elkhart Conns again. You can't just up and move and change staff and get the same result. It's not Elkhart, and it's not Conn, it's Rodriguez or Smith who've been spinning bells for twenty years, and they ain't moving on a whim.

COVID is a great excuse for what was already a declining product.
Please don’t fuel my seller’s remorse for the Eastlake 88h I recently sold.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by harrisonreed »

MrHCinDE wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:41 pm Please don’t fuel my seller’s remorse for the Eastlake 88h I recently sold.
I just sold mine a month ago. Don't worry about it. They were great, but not as good as the Edwards and Shires stuff that's out right now.

That's the really funny thing here, these Conn-Selmer horns now cost so much that you can't even say they are a good deal for students. The whole premise of the topic is skewed.

"Are Conn Selmer making good trombones?"

If the 3B costs about $2k, possibly that one model. Otherwise no. Not even if they were 40% off.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by spencercarran »

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:32 pmThe Eastlake Conns were great, and then they moved to Elkhart, maybe so they could be Elkhart Conns again.
The Elkhart factory was already non-union after they broke the Bach strike of 2006-2009. Eastlake is still union labor to this day.

Conn-Selmer is owned by Steinway which is owned by some hedge fund, and I suspect the people making major business decisions are more cognizant of those labor dynamics than they are of some consumers' nostalgia for a long-past era of the brand's history.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Goten56 »

Maybe you should consider some European brands too. For example, Miraphone produces some great trombones. And they are cheaper than any of the Conn-Selmer stuff. The stories above about their current quality surprised me. I didn't think that they have such problems.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by adrielo19 »

Interesting answers.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by OneTon »

adrielo19 said, “Interesting answers.”

Yes. I’m glad we’ve cleared this up. Cheers.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by imsevimse »

Old Conns are good. I have several (count two figures). My newest Conns are from 1991, the oldest from 1902. Except from slide quality on earlier horns compared to modern build quality they are no problem. Real old slides has a lot of tarnish and I have to wipe them clean from black gunk each time they are used. This is slides before 1920. They can be poor even if cleaned and aligned.

When it comes to newer horns I tried a new Conn with infinity valve that was real good, but that was five years ago. The review above about brand new makes me think Conn now has less quality control. If so it is too bad, they sure cost a lot. For that amount of money they should have quality control.

/Tom
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by hyperbolica »

Don't over react to Horn Guy's statement. They have posted notices like that before. They got a bad batch. When they get a good batch they will post that as well. Just make sure to test whatever you want to purchase, or that there is some trial/return policy in place. Or buy used. This is always good advice. Conn King and Bach are good brands.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by OneTon »

hyperbolica wrote, “Don’t overreact to Horn Guy’s statement.” Even Steve isn’t relegating Conn Selmer to a level of Dante’s Inferno from which there is no return. The good guys may be frustrated by the shut down or a business practice of selling large blocks of stock to Sweetwater. My local stores have supported my playing needs with Conn Selmer products and I expect them to do so in the future. They often have given me deep discounts to provide me with horns suitable for my needs and budget.

I have heard Clark Terry say, “It isn’t just the horn.” It needs to be understood in context. Steve Turre can probably play lead on a four hour concert on a 0.547 bore horn. When I saw him at Aspen, he was a Yamaha artist and played on a Yamaha.

As a mere mortal who would have starved to death as a full time musician, I better bring my YSL-697Z or LT6 and not get too wrapped up around the axle because Dialing for Dollars hasn’t given me a King 2B. I have not seen too many boutique small bore horns below 0.500 inches. If we put arbitrarily King or K&H out of business, the choices get even narrower.

I try to heed Herbert Spence regarding contempt prior to investigation. Putting mainstream manufacturers out of business with herd mentality is not to our best interest. If they can’t get it together, they can go out of business without our help. Hopefully Conn Selmer is listening to Steve as they wrestle with their production quality.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by elmsandr »

spencercarran wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:09 pm
harrisonreed wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:32 pmThe Eastlake Conns were great, and then they moved to Elkhart, maybe so they could be Elkhart Conns again.
The Elkhart factory was already non-union after they broke the Bach strike of 2006-2009. Eastlake is still union labor to this day.

Conn-Selmer is owned by Steinway which is owned by some hedge fund, and I suspect the people making major business decisions are more cognizant of those labor dynamics than they are of some consumers' nostalgia for a long-past era of the brand's history.
Conn-Selmer bought Steinway... they just took that name as it has more public recognition.

Also a note, MANY, if not most of the crafters that I met there in the 2018-2019 time frame are folks that worked there with the Union... they crossed the line to keep their jobs when they were being replaced.

There are issues with C-S; but they are their own home-grown issues. I think most of them go beyond what can be typed up in a simple forum post, but the intent of every person working on the horns is to do a good job... the question to me is more about how they know they did and what they do to get that feedback. It is still clear that too much gets out that should never have been made that way.

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by adrielo19 »

Quinn The Eskimo Brass & Winds wrote on Reverb: "We have just purchased an enormous number of King, Conn and Bach Stradivarius trombones that represent customer returns." That part of customer returns is interesting. There are a lot of horns listed on his Reverb page.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by harrisonreed »

adrielo19 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:33 am Quinn The Eskimo Brass & Winds wrote on Reverb: "We have just purchased an enormous number of King, Conn and Bach Stradivarius trombones that represent customer returns." That part of customer returns is interesting. There are a lot of horns listed on his Reverb page.
Does Quinn fix them up? Anyways, this is just more evidence for you. Currently, it really is that bad right now.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by ithinknot »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:47 pm Does Quinn fix them up?
Ask him - I'm sure he'd reply for any given horn. Assuming he doesn't, they're sold at perfectly reasonable prices that imply that someone might spend some extra money somewhere down the line - and you're given dozens of photos of the instrument in question. If you can't spot, say, lacquer flaws and obviously out-of-parallel tuning slides and assembly from his photos, you're probably not someone who's going to be bothered by them when they arrive.

(Also, to be fair, there are so many possibilities for minor cosmetic flaws that can send a horn in this direction. Realistically, in a sizeable factory, if something doesn't get caught before lacquering, then no-one's going to send it to be stripped/buffed and re-lacquered after the minor solder repair when there's an alternative, commercially favorable sales route... and cf. all the Shires acid bleed issues, etc.)
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Bach5G »

ithinknot wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:09 pm
harrisonreed wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:47 pm Does Quinn fix them up?
Ask him - I'm sure he'd reply for any given horn. Assuming he doesn't, they're sold at perfectly reasonable prices that imply that someone might spend some extra money somewhere down the line - and you're given dozens of photos of the instrument in question. If you can't spot, say, lacquer flaws and obviously out-of-parallel tuning slides and assembly from his photos, you're probably not someone who's going to be bothered by them when they arrive.

(Also, to be fair, there are so many possibilities for minor cosmetic flaws that can send a horn in this direction. Realistically, in a sizeable factory, if something doesn't get caught before lacquering, then no-one's going to send it to be stripped/buffed and re-lacquered after the minor solder repair when there's an alternative, commercially favorable sales route... and cf. all the Shires acid bleed issues, etc.)
If you go to Quinn’s site, there are a couple pages describing what his repair persons are working on. I assume from that he has his techs inspect incoming horns and correct obvious problems.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Cotboneman »

I have purchased a couple of horns from Quinn in the past year, a Bach 42AFG and Conn 88HY, both really good horns, with no flaws that I can see, and I have played trombone in all kinds of settings for more than 45 years. I understand that workmanship is a real concern, and my experience with two Bachs and a Selmer Bolero purchased in the late 70's and early 80's can attest to the frustrations many are feeling today. Both my horns are players and I feel confident that they are worth the thousands of dollars that I have saved. But of course this is just my experience.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Boneuphtoner »

I wanted a nice horn after coming back after a 4.5 year lay off due to an illness that I thought was untreatable - turns out it is but it wasn’t what I thought it was and as of late August I’m back in business. The only horn I had was my 80’s Bach LT42B. I went into my favorite store expecting to buy an 88H, and I walked out the Bach 42BOF. It was mostly a tonal decision - I used to love the 88H prior to my layoff, but I now really like Bach 42s and the workmanship on the 42BOF is flawless - it was a Player Select horn. The rotor is a touch noisier than I like, and I think I will get that adjusted at some point. I picked the Bach over the Conn because of the tone mostly, but the slide on the 88H was garbage and it was unpacked right out of the box. I’ve heard SF at Horn Guys complain in the past, and now I see what he is talking about. My store said in their experience the Conns and Kings need slide work out of the box, but most Bachs are ok.

So - I think Conn-Selmer is making excellent new Bachs right now, but I would recommend making sure if you have to buy sight unseen that you get any Conn or King slide set up before getting it. Or plan to have it done.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by elmsandr »

Boneuphtoner wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:17 pm ...
My store said in their experience the Conns and Kings need slide work out of the box, but most Bachs are ok.

So - I think Conn-Selmer is making excellent new Bachs right now, but I would recommend making sure if you have to buy sight unseen that you get any Conn or King slide set up before getting it. Or plan to have it done.
This, uh, makes no sense. The guys making the Conn and King slides are the same guys making the Bach slides. The horns are sometimes on the same racks at the same workbench.

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Kbiggs »

Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones? Yes, as are all the other major and name-brand manufacturers.

Is Conn-Selmer making poor/bad/sub-par trombones? Yes, as are all the other major and name-brand manufacturers.

Ya gotta try ‘em.

Remember, though, most of what the horn sounds like comes from the soft machine—the part behind the mouthpiece.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by Boneuphtoner »

elmsandr wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:26 am
Boneuphtoner wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:17 pm ...
My store said in their experience the Conns and Kings need slide work out of the box, but most Bachs are ok.

So - I think Conn-Selmer is making excellent new Bachs right now, but I would recommend making sure if you have to buy sight unseen that you get any Conn or King slide set up before getting it. Or plan to have it done.
This, uh, makes no sense. The guys making the Conn and King slides are the same guys making the Bach slides. The horns are sometimes on the same racks at the same workbench.

Cheers,
Andy
Aren't Conn and King parts still made at the King factory in Ohio? The new Kings still clearly state Eastlake, OH. I can't comment if the same people are doing the finishing on all these slides, but I do trust what my retailer is telling me in terms of what needs setup versus what can go out the door as is.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by officermayo »

So am I to understand the Conn, Selmer, King and Bach horns all come from the same manufacturer?
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by OneTon »

officermayo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 am So am I to understand the Conn, Selmer, King and Bach horns all come from the same manufacturer?
I understand that they are all owned by Steinway. Evidently elmsandr saw multiple products being assembled on the same “line.” I have heard that Lexus and Toyota
Cars come down the same assembly line.

That doesn’t mean the components came from the same supplier or supplier location. Rework could have occurred selectively, and time may not have been allowed for spring back. The tool jigs could be different, worn out, or worn out at different tool set up locations. An investigation could bubble up multiple root causes for defects.

Long story short, the retailer’s perception that Bach trombones had fewer defects could be correct.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by harrisonreed »

Kbiggs wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:58 am Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones? Yes, as are all the other major and name-brand manufacturers.

Is Conn-Selmer making poor/bad/sub-par trombones? Yes, as are all the other major and name-brand manufacturers.

Ya gotta try ‘em.

Remember, though, most of what the horn sounds like comes from the soft machine—the part behind the mouthpiece.
Not true. Most of the sound comes from the quality of the room you're in. The worst stencil horn, in a beautiful hall, will sound better than the greatest trombone in a closet full of coats. Good trombone designs all pretty much are attempts to make the player/horn/room relationship better.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by adrielo19 »

Remember, though, most of what the horn sounds like comes from the soft machine—the part behind the mouthpiece.
[/quote]

I know, but I'm talking about the manufacturing quality.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by elmsandr »

OneTon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:09 pm
officermayo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 am So am I to understand the Conn, Selmer, King and Bach horns all come from the same manufacturer?
I understand that they are all owned by Steinway. Evidently elmsandr saw multiple products being assembled on the same “line.” I have heard that Lexus and Toyota
Cars come down the same assembly line.

That doesn’t mean the components came from the same supplier or supplier location. Rework could have occurred selectively, and time may not have been allowed for spring back. The tool jigs could be different, worn out, or worn out at different tool set up locations. An investigation could bubble up multiple root causes for defects.

Long story short, the retailer’s perception that Bach trombones had fewer defects could be correct.
Eh... Guys. I work in manufacturing. For fun, I have even worked (briefly) in a musical instrument plant.

We gotta stop with the "Steinway" discussion, it is irrelevant.. And the horn company (Conn-Selmer) bought the piano company, not the other way. They just use that name because a lot more people know the name Steinway than know Conn or Vincent Bach.

For fun, are the parts that you can see Bach, Conn, Holton? How do you know?
10.jpg
15.jpg
Perception? Sure. It is absolutely possible that examples they received matched that report. What I am telling you is that the parts are made on the same equipment, with similar fixtures and tooling, by the same people on the same day. That is, I wouldn't use it as a predictive measure if buying sight unseen.

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by OneTon »

elmsandr wrote: “We gotta stop with the “Steinway” discussion, it is irrelevant [[sic].. And the horn company (Conn-Selmer) bought the piano company, not the other way.”

The statement regarding the transaction was absolutely correct . . . in 1995. In 1998 the companies were publicly traded on the NYSE. In 2013 Paulson and Company acquired them and took them private. The source for this is the Conn Selmer website: About Us. That site lists Conn Selmer as a subsidiary of Steinway Musical Instruments, Inc.

In 2016 Michael Sweeney stepped down as CEO of Steinway. Stephen Millikan had no comment as to whether Mr. Sweeney left voluntarily or was asked to resign. Mr. Millikan was the spokesperson for Paulson and Company. The source for this is CNN. As such, it would appear that a reporter for CNN thinks that as owner, Paulson and Company controls who the CEO of Steinway Musical Instruments, Inc. is. By extrapolation, the CEO of Conn Selmer reports to Steinway Music Instruments, Inc., who reports to Paulson and Company. To paraphrase Harry Truman, “The Buck stops here” in general applies to top management. And it is relevant to the discussion.

Six Sigma, MIT Lean, and Toyota Production System have similar methods of improving production by root cause analysis. Picking unmarked parts from a mixed cardboard barrel would not likely encounter much approval as a process of identification or storage, if that is what is occurring. On the other hand, based on the urban legend concerning Bach Mercury and Mercedes instruments, playing Russian Roulette might be a corporate tradition, inherited with the Bach DNA. In which case, the root cause investigation might seek to determine if Conn parts were being dealt from the bottom of the barrel. But that is based on the rankest form of hearsay and I apologize in advance.

Cheers,
Richard
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by elmsandr »

OneTon wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:10 am elmsandr wrote: “We gotta stop with the “Steinway” discussion, it is irrelevant [[sic].. And the horn company (Conn-Selmer) bought the piano company, not the other way.”
.... And it is relevant to the discussion. "
Except that the implication is that they were bought up by new management and the Piano guys screwed it all up... The professional management they have now is comprised of the same group of people as before. Some changes, but not because an outside force to the brass plant screwed it up. They have made this problem themselves for years. Did they screw up Conns and Holtons by moving them from the Eastlake facility to the Elkhart one? That could be an interesting question. Whether or not the management are truly interested in making good product could also be a discussion, just not because there are some piano guys now calling the shots. That is the part that I do not think is relevant. The Steinway involvement was not like the sale of Conn and the move to Texas, and we should not treat it as such.
Six Sigma, MIT Lean, and Toyota Production System have similar methods of improving production by root cause analysis. Picking unmarked parts from a mixed cardboard barrel would not likely encounter much approval as a process of identification or storage, if that is what is occurring. On the other hand, based on the urban legend concerning Bach Mercury and Mercedes instruments, playing Russian Roulette might be a corporate tradition, inherited with the Bach DNA. In which case, the root cause investigation might seek to determine if Conn parts were being dealt from the bottom of the barrel. But that is based on the rankest form of hearsay and I apologize in advance.

Cheers,
Richard
Those tools are great. As a Certified Six Sigma blackbelt, I would love to run some projects there... but that is not the reality of this plant. This is more like a pre-lean job shop type operation. Components aren't mixed too much, but it is NOTHING like any automotive supplier where you have defined inspections and control plans for every operation. A LOT relies on individual workers knowing what makes "good". That's the artisan heritage of this industry, for good and bad. The measurement criteria is often not defined, and sometimes when it is I guarantee that it wouldn't pass any Measurement Systems Analysis*. Having a robust quality structure where Six Sigma/Lean/TPS/any flavor of even semi-modern shop floor metrics work would require a level of engineering that I have not seen in any musical instrument manufacturing facility. They are getting better (from a process and control type shop tour) between the '90s to the 2017/8 visits that I had. From what I have seen, I would be curious about that level at the Yamaha plants. The accumulated decades of results there seem to point in a direction there.

Cheers,
Andy

*This may be OK for some things here... heck, we can't even agree on what, exactly, a good sound is and what precisely in a horn makes it better. But when you are heat treating something... there are industrial standards that I doubt they could pass any rigorous audit.

** another random thought, historical re-use of parts between Mercury, Mercedes, and Stradivarius level instruments is not so much playing Russian Roulette as it is successful badge engineering and cost saving, e.g. Toyota and Lexus above. There is not a measure of a flare that makes it a Strad vs. a Mercury if they are made with the same tooling and materials. Why have to learn how to make another different flare when you can use the Mercury line to level production of Strad flares? That was some lean thinking from back in the day!
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by BGuttman »

Interesting thing about this "down-badging" is that the demand for the lower grade instruments is much higher than the top grade ones. It almost becomes "make a pile of parts, and the best ones are the top grade and everything else goes to the lower grades".

Quality control of something like musical instruments (or many other products, for that matter) is difficult when what makes "quality" is something that is difficult to quantify. I can measure distances easily, but how do I measure the resonant quality of a brass tube? What kind of number is good and what kind of number is bad?
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by OneTon »

BGuttman wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:49 am
I can measure distances easily, but how do I measure the resonant quality of a brass tube?

What kind of number is good and what kind of number is bad?
Duke Ellington said, “If it sounds good, it is good.”
A well tempered clavier may not be
As even as we think.
One thing’s for sure,
Assuming facts not in evidence
Will always make a stink.

After taxes, accounts payable, and servicing of debt, a high number in the cash register is good. A low number is bad. Warren Buffet seems to get it right.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by BGuttman »

Warren Buffett is investing in stuff you can measure. Making musical instruments is as much an art as a craft and you can't just pull any joker off the street and expect him to make a quality trombone. Even with 2-3 months' training. There's a lot of skill in making a good musical instrument that can't simply be written down so that anyone who has a modicum of skill can follow directions and achieve success. This is the difference between jobs easily put on Quality Systems review and jobs that elude QC. Example: Wessex Tubas used to have a guy testing all their trombones. He had a stroke and died. The quality of the trombones took a hit. You can measure things like Workmanship (lacquer defects, bad solder joints, etc.) but measuring how it plays requires a very skilled evaluator. That can be difficult to find.
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Re: Is Conn-Selmer making good trombones?

Post by OneTon »

Yes. It is worse than stated.
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